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SAF v NJ (MULLER et al v. MAENZA et al)


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#361 n4p226r

n4p226r

Posted 22 August 2011 - 09:29 PM

Somebody is lucky I'm not carrin' my gun! Oh wait I forgot...I live in NJ..."No gun for you"



i figured i'd be safe since we're all law abiding citizens here.

#362 ChrisJM981

ChrisJM981
  • LocationRandolph, NJ
  • Home Range:RTSP

Posted 03 September 2011 - 01:33 AM

We're into September. Was there a deadline for the ruling or is it one of those "when I get around to it" type of things this state is great for?
Effective gun control is a well placed shot.

NRA & SAF Life Member

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
-Thomas Jefferson

#363 joejaxx

joejaxx
  • LocationСоюз Советских Социалистических Республик

Posted 03 September 2011 - 12:05 PM

We're into September. Was there a deadline for the ruling or is it one of those "when I get around to it" type of things this state is great for?


It is a waiting game now. Last update was:

06/24/2011
Case Reassigned to Magistrate Judge Madeline C. Arleo.
Magistrate Judge C. C. Cecchi no longer assigned to the case. (jl, ) (Entered: 06/24/2011)



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#364 loonhead

loonhead
  • LocationVernon
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 05 September 2011 - 09:59 AM

What do you all think the chances are (realistically) that us average NJ citizens will be able to legally carry a concealed firearm? Just wondering. Seems to me like there actually may be a chance.
-Rob
Member ANJRPC, NRA
UT, FL CCW

"It takes very little to govern good people. And bad people can't be governed at all. Or if they could I never heard of it". -Cormac McCarthy

#365 Fawkesguy

Fawkesguy
  • LocationFlemington
  • Home Range:SCFGPA

Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:38 AM

What do you all think the chances are (realistically) that us average NJ citizens will be able to legally carry a concealed firearm? Just wondering. Seems to me like there actually may be a chance.


I think our chances of ending up with a "shall issue" permit system (like the majority of the country) are zero.
  • vjf915 likes this
NRA Life Member
NJ2AS

We Don't Need No Steenking Second Amendment


"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

#366 lunker

lunker
  • LocationThe woods in New Hampshire
  • Home Range:http://www.chesterrodandgunclub.com/

Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:47 AM

I think our chances of ending up with a "shall issue" permit system (like the majority of the country) are zero.

If the decision ultimately comes from a state court, yes. If it comes from the Supreme Court, NJ will throw up roadblocks, but in the end we willhave it.

Chris

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. -George Bernard Shaw

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." - Thucydides.

 

 

 

 


#367 ianargent

ianargent

Posted 05 September 2011 - 04:09 PM

This suit is in the Federal courts, under Federal law and the US Constitution. No NJ court has jurisdiction.

#368 Fawkesguy

Fawkesguy
  • LocationFlemington
  • Home Range:SCFGPA

Posted 05 September 2011 - 04:17 PM

This suit is in the Federal courts, under Federal law and the US Constitution. No NJ court has jurisdiction.


Correct. What I believe will happen is we will lose in the circuit courts, it will be appealed to the Supreme Court and they'll refuse to hear the case.

Trust me, that isn't the outcome I want, but I have a feeling that is how it'll go down.
NRA Life Member
NJ2AS

We Don't Need No Steenking Second Amendment


"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

#369 JTQ911

JTQ911
  • LocationOak Ridge/Allentown
  • Home Range:Shore Shot

Posted 05 September 2011 - 04:19 PM

Why do you think the supreme court will refuse to hear the appeal?

#370 Fawkesguy

Fawkesguy
  • LocationFlemington
  • Home Range:SCFGPA

Posted 05 September 2011 - 04:32 PM

Why do you think the supreme court will refuse to hear the appeal?


Just a hunch. I get the feeling the Supreme Court likes to give the states wide latitude in these sorts of matters. In theory, we have a "may issue" system, and I think the Circuit Court will see it as "reasonable", especially since one of the original plaintiffs was issued a carry permit. I believe the Supreme Court will not want to interfere with the state in this instance and they'll let the lower court ruling stand. I really hope I'm wrong.
NRA Life Member
NJ2AS

We Don't Need No Steenking Second Amendment


"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

#371 galapoola

galapoola

Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:58 AM

Just a hunch. I get the feeling the Supreme Court likes to give the states wide latitude in these sorts of matters. In theory, we have a "may issue" system, and I think the Circuit Court will see it as "reasonable", especially since one of the original plaintiffs was issued a carry permit. I believe the Supreme Court will not want to interfere with the state in this instance and they'll let the lower court ruling stand. I really hope I'm wrong.


I have to respectfully disagree. When it comes to a fundamental, civil, natural, constitutional right, SCOTUS sits up and takes notice. It may well be that in the end, a NJ case will not go before the high court but one of the carry suits will. The only foundational part of the 2nd Amendment that has not been brought before SCOTUS is the "right to bear arms" and specifically to carry them outside your home. The collective/individual right was decided in Heller, the militia question also in Heller, the reason for weapons was also discussed in Heller and the whole camper/hunter thing knocked down in Heller and the incorporation to the states was decided in McDonald. If you read the recent opinions all the judges have ruled that Heller only applies to carry in one's home. Kind of funny when you think of it, not many strap on a firearm while doing laundry but that's an argument for another time. The lower courts never consider that SCOTUS only ruled on what was before them and in neither case did Gura ask for carry outside one's home. That was his strategy, to dismantle these laws one precept at a time. Now that we have a real 2nd Amendment incorporated to the states and an individual right all that is left is to decide if "to bear" actually means what it says and to define what a non-sensitive place is. In NJ the idiot law makers may deem anywhere in a 500 mile radius from a school a sensitive area but in the end the justifiable need will be struck down once SCOTUS determines that "to bear" is part of the right that no one (including NJ) can infringe on.

#372 ianargent

ianargent

Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:06 AM

SCOTUS had been taking and knocking down restrictions on 2A. And for all the FUD, the core holding of Heller said "keep and bear"

#373 Fawkesguy

Fawkesguy
  • LocationFlemington
  • Home Range:SCFGPA

Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:22 AM

I have to respectfully disagree......



We'll find out eventually. Like I said, I'm pretty sure I'm right, but I REALLY hope I'm wrong.
NRA Life Member
NJ2AS

We Don't Need No Steenking Second Amendment


"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

#374 joecs1

joecs1

Posted 08 September 2011 - 01:38 PM

CAN WE PUT THIS THREAD TO SLEEP AGAIN.......till we have new info?
  • glennp, georgemc and vjf915 like this

#375 reloaderguy

reloaderguy
  • LocationMiddlesex County
  • Home Range:Somerset County Fish and Game

Posted 10 September 2011 - 03:43 PM

CAN WE PUT THIS THREAD TO SLEEP AGAIN.......till we have new info?


Before you do. Zero chance is my opinion.
  • DevsAdvocate likes this

#376 SJG

SJG
  • LocationUnion County
  • Home Range:GunForHire;Heritage

Posted 05 October 2011 - 10:57 AM

The issue is not dead. The case cert was denied in was a criminal not a civil case. The NJ Fed District Court Judge has not yet decided the issue, which of course, is a predicate to the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit to here it. The Circuit Court decision will control the fate of the plaintiff's in that case, even if the US Supreme Court denies cert, in the NJ case, unless it decides another case in the interim which is inconsistent with the Third Circuit opinion; the NJ Supreme Court does not have to follow the Third Circuit Decision, but it will be persuasive in any subsequent State Appellate Court opinions. The denial of cert by the US Supreme Court carries no weight either way. There are other cases that will raise the issue that will come before the Supreme Court, but it will be up to them if they ever hear it. Eventually, the issue will get decided. Also, a Republican President and Republican Controlled Legislature-(it could happen) would go a long way to getting interstate carry reciprocity. That in and of itself, could cause pressure in NJ for right to carry reform.

#377 Steve_G

Steve_G
  • LocationOld Bridge
  • Home Range:OBRPC

Posted 05 October 2011 - 11:49 AM

SMH :mad:
Steve


"The right of a citizen to bear arms, in lawful defense of himself or the State, is absolute. He does not derive it from the State government. It is one of the "high powers" delegated directly to the citizen, and 'is excepted out of the general powers of government.' A law cannot be passed to infringe upon or impair it, because it is above the law, and independent of the lawmaking power." [Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex. 394, at 401-402 (1859)]

#378 vjf915

vjf915
  • LocationEwing

Posted 05 October 2011 - 03:16 PM

WTF guys. Does nobody understand that probably 90% of members on the site are subscribed to this thread?! That means that 90% of members get an email EVERY SINGLE TIME someone posts in this thread.

I propose this. Can we PLEASE lock this thread, and it does NOT get unlocked until someone PM's a mod saying "I have new information regarding the case." It's pinned, so it will stay up top until we need it for IMPORTANT posts.
  • lunker, BigHayden, n4p226r and 4 others like this

If I had to clean a gun my life depended on every day I'd be pissed off, you can't always do that. You should be able to kick the action open, piss in it, and close it. DONE.

+1 to you.. you have the single most important accessory ANY AR owner could ever own (myself included) and that is a backup AK..


#379 cubflyer50

cubflyer50

Posted 14 October 2011 - 03:58 PM

Oral arguments for the case scheduled Thursday, October 27, at 9:30 a.m. at the Newark federal courthouse!!! http://www.njd.uscourts.gov/ If anyone wants to attend...please dress appropriately for a federal court, and don’t bring anything “political” (e.g. big buttons, etc.). Please also remember to arrive at least 15 minutes early to allow for time to get through security. The courthouse is located at:

Martin Luther King, Jr. Federal Building & U.S. Courthouse
50 Walnut Street
Newark, NJ 07101
Phone : 973-645-3730

#380 DevsAdvocate

DevsAdvocate
  • LocationMorristown, NJ
  • Home Range:Ontelaunee Rod and Gun Club and RTSP

Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:09 PM

Oral arguments for the case scheduled Thursday, October 27, at 9:30 a.m. at the Newark federal courthouse!!! http://www.njd.uscourts.gov/ If anyone wants to attend...please dress appropriately for a federal court, and don’t bring anything “political” (e.g. big buttons, etc.). Please also remember to arrive at least 15 minutes early to allow for time to get through security. The courthouse is located at:

Martin Luther King, Jr. Federal Building & U.S. Courthouse
50 Walnut Street
Newark, NJ 07101
Phone : 973-645-3730


I may take off and head over.

#381 davisac

davisac

Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:20 PM

Real update for once. Rock on. :music:
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#382 robot_hell

robot_hell
  • LocationOut-Of-State

Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:25 PM

Does the Judge have the option to make a summary judgement, or must he make one on that day?

Former NJ resident


#383 diamondd817

diamondd817
  • LocationNear Morristown

Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:36 AM

I'll be there. The more pro-gun people, the better. I hope its a huge turn out (1,000's)

And I got my fingers crossed for some positive outcome.... :icon_mrgreen:

“The Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunters. Hunters use firearms. Hunters have every right to use firearms, as do target shooters, as do gun collectors, as do others. “The fact of the matter is that the Second Amendment has to do with personal and national defense. It was put into the Constitution by the founders who considered it as important indeed as the First Amendment.” ... NRA President David Keene

Member:

NRA
SAF
NJ2AS

ANJRPC   


#384 NicePants

NicePants
  • LocationPaterson
  • Home Range:Bullet Hole

Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:08 PM

I want to go, but is there any chance I'll get a seat? How many people are expected to show?
-Marcus

"Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark in the hopeless swaps of the not-quite, the not-yet, and the not-at-all. Do not let the hero in your soul perish in lonely frustration for the life you deserved and have never been able to reach. The world you desire can be won. It exists.. it is real.. it is possible.. it's yours." — Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

#385 vjf915

vjf915
  • LocationEwing

Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:17 PM

I want to go, but is there any chance I'll get a seat? How many people are expected to show?

We should all hope to go and NOT get a seat. That's what will truly show how much we support our cause, when we overfill the courtrooms with our presence.
  • Bob B, NicePants and hd2000fxdl like this

If I had to clean a gun my life depended on every day I'd be pissed off, you can't always do that. You should be able to kick the action open, piss in it, and close it. DONE.

+1 to you.. you have the single most important accessory ANY AR owner could ever own (myself included) and that is a backup AK..


#386 NicePants

NicePants
  • LocationPaterson
  • Home Range:Bullet Hole

Posted 16 October 2011 - 10:26 PM

We should all hope to go and NOT get a seat. That's what will truly show how much we support our cause, when we overfill the courtrooms with our presence.


I absolutely agree, but I still totally want a seat. :icon_mrgreen:
-Marcus

"Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark in the hopeless swaps of the not-quite, the not-yet, and the not-at-all. Do not let the hero in your soul perish in lonely frustration for the life you deserved and have never been able to reach. The world you desire can be won. It exists.. it is real.. it is possible.. it's yours." — Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

#387 Live_Free_orDie

Live_Free_orDie

Posted 17 October 2011 - 01:45 PM

GOOoo!!!! Even if you have to sit on the Judges lap<<< kinder gentler gun community :sarcastichand:
SAF Life Member, NRA Member, ANJRPC member, NJ2AS member, Oathkeeper, Veteran, Nam Knight.

#388 NicePants

NicePants
  • LocationPaterson
  • Home Range:Bullet Hole

Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:47 PM

GOOoo!!!! Even if you have to sit on the Judges lap<<< kinder gentler gun community :sarcastichand:


Oh god. Trust me, no one would want to see that. It'd be like a fat guy sitting on santa's lap. "And what I really, REALLY want this year is reformed CCW laws that allow the fine citizens of our state to carry. PWEESE SANTA!" :sarcastichand:
  • vjf915 likes this
-Marcus

"Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark in the hopeless swaps of the not-quite, the not-yet, and the not-at-all. Do not let the hero in your soul perish in lonely frustration for the life you deserved and have never been able to reach. The world you desire can be won. It exists.. it is real.. it is possible.. it's yours." — Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

#389 mikelets456

mikelets456
  • LocationEastern,PA

Posted 18 October 2011 - 08:07 AM

I think it would be a good idea to start sending emails to ranges, friends and post on forums to let ALL gun owners know what is going on and to be there. Also, be prepared that left wing (Marxists/progressives) WILL be there. Our numbers need to be greater and we need to be peaceful. Spread the word....After all this is NJ and the radicals do not want to give up power. Make sure you are prepared with a camera in hand, knowledge of what you stand for and go up in groups. Maybe we should have meeting areas? IE: NJ gun forum members meet out front 50' right of the entrance?
ACTS 17:27His purpose was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find himthough he is not far from any one of us.

#390 PDM

PDM

Posted 18 October 2011 - 12:49 PM

I think it's great that people want to go, but keep in mind that hearings, particularly in Federal court, are pretty staid proceedings. The one possible benefit of a big turnout might be that any reporters in the courtroom will take notice and it's possible they might interview people afterwards. You will need to likely need check your cell phones and possibly cameras before you go in.




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