NJ gun law / Manufacturing idea

[DngrZne 0]

I like to find ways to screw NJ out of ways of denying me my rights, so I had an idea and was wondering what everyone else thought of it. I know that federally I am allowed to manufacture a firearm for personal use, but in the great state of the People's Republik of New Jersey I have to be a licensed manufacturer to do the same. If I'm correct, it is perfectly legal to bring firearms you already own into NJ with no paperwork or anything needing to be done, especially if it's a long gun. I believe once a receiver is past the 80% completion point is when it is generally considered to be a firearm. In theory I can take a receiver flat more than 3 miles offshore into federal waters, bend it to the proper shape making it more than 80% complete which instantly transforms it from a piece of innocent sheet metal into a scary firearm, which I now own, and then bring it back into NJ, where the manufacturing never took place. At this point I can legally attach the parts kit to the receiver following all the scary feature laws and US part criteria. So as far as I see it, manufacturing of the firearm took place under federal jurisdiction where it is legal, I own it from that point forward, and have done nothing illegal by bringing it back into NJ with me.

 

Thoughts?

[StarWarsGeek45 5]

Anyone got some popcorn?

[PK90 3,570]

It might be easier to do it on dry land in PA or NY.

[DngrZne 0]

It might be easier to do it on dry land in PA or NY.

 

 

I agree, but in federal waters I don't have to worry about the laws of other states, haha. As it is at least several times a year I'm out 80+ miles offshore, so if I could use a few c-clamps to substitute for the hydraulic press it would be a relatively compact way of doing things. Technically once the main bend is done it might be complete enough to do any finishing work back on land too.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Do you happen to own a large ship with a full work shop? Otherwise, not easy to do.

 

Also, keep in mind that even in the free parts of America if you build firearms personally you still need to do everything an 02 manufacturer would do, such as put your name, model, caliber and a serial # on it. You also have to watch out that you don't build anything in a way not approved by the ATF or you could get in a lot of trouble - they are concerned with ease of conversion to fullauto. Licensed manufacturers submit samples and get approval letters from the ATF to ensure legality.

[halbautomatisch 60]

I agree, but in federal waters I don't have to worry about the laws of other states, haha. As it is at least several times a year I'm out 80+ miles offshore, so if I could use a few c-clamps to substitute for the hydraulic press it would be a relatively compact way of doing things. Technically once the main bend is done it might be complete enough to do any finishing work back on land too.

80 miles out is international waters - you would be importing firearms into the US illegally.

[DngrZne 0]

Do you happen to own a large ship with a full work shop? Otherwise, not easy to do.

 

Also, keep in mind that even in the free parts of America if you build firearms personally you still need to do everything an 02 manufacturer would do, such as put your name, model, caliber and a serial # on it. You also have to watch out that you don't build anything in a way not approved by the ATF or you could get in a lot of trouble - they are concerned with ease of conversion to fullauto. Licensed manufacturers submit samples and get approval letters from the ATF to ensure legality.

 

 

Bending a pre-stamped receiver flat doesn't require a machine shop, it requires a few jigs and a method of pressing the receiver through the jig. As far as they are concerned, once bent it is a firearm. The welding of the rails could be done later on land.

 

As far as the BATF is concerned, this is from their website:

 

Q: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?

 

For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

 

The GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), defines the term “firearm” to include the following:

 

… (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive: (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; © any firearm muffler or silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

 

In addition, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), defines the term “machinegun” as:

 

… any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

 

Finally, the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 922®, specifically states the following:

 

It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under the…[GCA]…Section 925(d)(3).as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes ….

 

Also, 27 C.F.R. § 478.39 states:

 

…

 

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph © of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes ….

(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:

(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions of [§478.151(formerly 178.151)]; or (3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.

© For purposes of this section, the term imported parts [tabulated below] are:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings, or castings.

(2) Barrels.

(3) Barrel extensions.

(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).

(5) Muzzle attachments.

(6) Bolts.

(7) Bolt carriers.

(8) Operating rods.

(9) Gas pistons.

(10) Trigger housings.

(11) Triggers.

(12) Hammers.

(13) Sears.

(14) Disconnectors.

(15) Buttstocks.

(16) Pistol grips.

(17) Forearms, handguards.

(18) Magazine bodies.

(19) Followers.

(20) Floor plates.

 

…

 

As a result of a 1989 study by the U.S. Treasury Department regarding the importability of certain firearms, an import ban was placed on military-style firearms. This ban included not only military-type firearms, but also extended to firearms with certain features that were considered to be “nonsporting.”

 

Among such nonsporting features were the ability to accept a detachable magazine; folding/telescoping stocks; separate pistol grips; and the ability to accept a bayonet, flash suppressors, bipods, grenade launchers, and night sights.

 

Please note that the foreign parts kits that are sold through commercial means are usually cut up machineguns, such as Russian AK-47 types, British Sten types, etc. Generally, an acceptable semiautomatic copy of a machinegun is one that has been significantly redesigned. The receiver must be incapable of accepting the original fire-control components that are designed to permit full automatic fire. The method of operation should employ a closed-bolt firing design that incorporates an inertia-type firing pin within the bolt assembly.

 

Further, an acceptably redesigned semiautomatic copy of nonsporting firearm must be limited to using less than 10 of the imported parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39©. Otherwise, it is considered to be assembled into a nonsporting configuration per the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3) and is thus a violation of § 922®.

 

Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

 

As far as I can tell, it's not required, but still a good idea to serialize the receiver. I'd be only bending receivers to spend $12 for a flat rather than $110+ per Nodak Spud receiver and transfer, and to screw "the man" as far as NJ is concerned. I have all the tooling to do it because I had purchased it before I realized how much NJ laws don't align with federal laws, so I'd like to at least make some use of it.

[DngrZne 0]

80 miles out is international waters - you would be importing firearms into the US illegally.

 

 

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I just meant that I was offshore far enough often enough where it would be possible to do so out of NJ territory. I have a window between 3 and 12 miles out where federal law will be happy too. Conveniently there is an artificial reef about 4 miles out we fish at a lot which would be a convenient place to work, haha.

[StarWarsGeek45 5]

Do you happen to own a large ship with a full work shop? Otherwise, not easy to do.

 

Maybe you should ask the guys in the Khyber pass what kind of machine shop they use to manufacture guns? They would get a great laugh, considering those guys don't even have a work bench. They're making everything from AKs to handguns on a dirt floor with no electricity. And I'm not exaggerating.

 

[Shane45 807]

Sensei, if you feel froggy go ahead and jump. But in this state I would advise that you have your council already selected and about 90k in the bank for your defence. Because the day you get stopped and the officer looks at your rifle with no serial number, he aint gonna want to hear stories about boat rides and you will be needing said council and cash....

[Shane45 807]

Hal, it was my understanding that in fact you did not ned to serialise the reciever. (in most free America states)

[halbautomatisch 60]

Hal, it was my understanding that in fact you did not ned to serialise the reciever. (in most free America states)

You're probably right as is stated in the link he posted above from the ATF web site. But, as you mentioned, I can't see NJ accepting any stories about manufacturing at the mud dump and just say "OK, that's fine". Paula Dow is sure to find a way to ruin your life if she hears about that one.

[DngrZne 0]

Sensei, if you feel froggy go ahead and jump. But in this state I would advise that you have your council already selected and about 90k in the bank for your defence. Because the day you get stopped and the officer looks at your rifle with no serial number, he aint gonna want to hear stories about boat rides and you will be needing said council and cash....

 

 

It would have a serial number, just no record of it otherwise. Since there is no mandatory registration of long arms this shouldn't pose a problem. Aside from them not liking it I don't know what sort of legal angle they could use. As long as it is complaint with both federal and NJ laws it would be no different than my Nodak Spud rifle.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Maybe you should ask the guys in the Khyber pass what kind of machine shop they use to manufacture guns? They would get a great laugh, considering those guys don't even have a work bench. They're making everything from AKs to handguns on a dirt floor with no electricity. And I'm not exaggerating.

 

I've seen that before, and it is mind boggling what they are able to accomplish, but those guns are also known for blowing up in your face.

[vladtepes 1,060]

good luck with it.. I (do NOT) look forward to reading about you in the local news.. right or wrong.. I would assume it will go something like this..

 

"terrorist responsible for building and smuggling AK47 assault rifles into America arrested off the coast of NJ late yesterday morning"

 

as far as beating the list.. if it is an AK action.. and has features that make it "substantially identical" good luck getting out of that where ever you build it... you can come to PA and build it in my families yard if you want.. that is not where the problem will begin...

 

now if you built something totally unique.. maybe you have a shot.. but what you are talking about would essentially be an evil featured "AK type" rifle..imo of course..

[n4p226r 105]

vlad. all he is talking about is making this

 

http://ak-builder.com/images/detailed/0/762w_holes_0.jpg

 

into this

 

http://www.ak-47.us/pic/Ewbank/Ewbank-010sss.jpg

 

and then following all the evil feature games. grinding off the bayonet lug, pinned compensator/brake

[fslater 62]

80 miles out is international waters - you would be importing firearms into the US illegally.

Some one said it before me....... I think the wrap for 1)Smggling 2)illeagal importation 3) substandard quality, Just might trump the NJ laws

[DngrZne 0]

Some one said it before me....... I think the wrap for 1)Smggling 2)illeagal importation 3) substandard quality, Just might trump the NJ laws

 

Between 3 and 12 miles out is federal waters. As long as the manufacturing occurs there it is in US territory and not smuggling. I'm not sure where substandard quality fits in. I have the proper dies for bending the receivers, so the quality should be right up there with most any other sheet metal receiver out there.

[Shane45 807]

Like I tell my kids, theres right, and theres the way it is......

[DngrZne 0]

Like I tell my kids, theres right, and theres the way it is......

 

I definitely agree. I like to stay just to the right side of the way it is. NJ wants to play their game and I will do my best to beat them at it whenever possible.

[KpdPipes 388]

I definitely agree. I like to stay just to the right side of the way it is. NJ wants to play their game and I will do my best to beat them at it whenever possible.

Obviously you've already made your decision..just done come **** about it if it bites you in the a**.

[Fishpaw 17]

There are lots of receivers that were made in garage workshops ....bent from receiver flats using simple jigs and a cheapy hydraulic press...before the current receiver offerings out there, that how many people did it in free america....Also..they recommend you mark a firearm with the builders info, but you dont have to unless you sell or transfer the gun...

[KpdPipes 388]

There are lots of receivers that were made in garage workshops ....bent from receiver flats using simple jigs and a cheapy hydraulic press...before the current receiver offerings out there, that how many people did it in free america....Also..they recommend you mark a firearm with the builders info, but you dont have to unless you sell or transfer the gun...

Absolutely Mike,..nobody is saying it is a problem ELSEWHERE..it's jut that here in the PRNJ, it constitutes manufacturing...and while probably 99% of the time it would never be an issue..rolling the dice on that 1% carries a hefty price tag if it goes the wrong way.

[DngrZne 0]

Obviously you've already made your decision..just done come **** about it if it bites you in the a**.

 

I haven't made any decisions. I thought this was a forum for discussing NJ gun laws and I was describing a situation that I believe would fit within the legal confines of the law. I thought it would be interesting to see other people's opinions on it. I appreciate the vote of confidence though...

[vladtepes 1,060]

vlad. all he is talking about is making this

 

http://ak-builder.com/images/detailed/0/762w_holes_0.jpg

 

into this

 

http://www.ak-47.us/pic/Ewbank/Ewbank-010sss.jpg

 

and then following all the evil feature games. grinding off the bayonet lug, pinned compensator/brake

I missed that part... if it is NJ compliant.. then why does he even need to leave the state.. I was under the impression that he was attempting to circumvent having to play the parts game..

 

if the gun is NJ compliant I fail to see where it makes any difference if he makes it or buys it.. again baring there is not some NJ manufacturing law I am unfamiliar with..

[halbautomatisch 60]

I missed that part... if it is NJ compliant.. then why does he even need to leave the state.. I was under the impression that he was attempting to circumvent having to play the parts game..

 

if the gun is NJ compliant I fail to see where it makes any difference if he makes it or buys it.. again baring there is not some NJ manufacturing law I am unfamiliar with..

In NJ you cannot manufacture firearms without a state manufacturing license and an 02 FFL, even if it's for your own personal use. Bending 80% flats into receivers is considered manufacturing in NJ.

[halbautomatisch 60]

I haven't made any decisions. I thought this was a forum for discussing NJ gun laws and I was describing a situation that I believe would fit within the legal confines of the law. I thought it would be interesting to see other people's opinions on it. I appreciate the vote of confidence though...

I was discussing this with someone who mentioned that Customs has authority over the waters inside of 12 miles and could (he wasn't 100% sure) construe this as an illegal import even though you are still in US waters. It would be hard for you to prove you didn't travel outside of 12 miles off shore and you would be subject to search by Customs anywhere in that zone. The burden would most likely be on you to prove where the parts originally came from and where they were changed.

 

As far as NJ's response, they make up rules as they go along all the time, and even if your right, you probably will not have enough money to prove it. There are members of this forum, and others, who had C&R licenses for many years and did everything 100% legal. In the early 90's the state decided they didn't want them operating in NJ and along with the ATF arrested them as unlicensed gun dealers and seized all their guns. The charges were dismissed in court a few YEARS later after protracted court battles, but the message the state was saying was clear - we are going to arbitrarily decide what is allowed despite what the law says.

[KpdPipes 388]

I was discussing this with someone who mentioned that Customs has authority over the waters inside of 12 miles and could (he wasn't 100% sure) construe this as an illegal import even though you are still in US waters. It would be hard for you to prove you didn't travel outside of 12 miles off shore and you would be subject to search by Customs anywhere in that zone. The burden would most likely be on you to prove where the parts originally came from and where they were changed.

 

As far as NJ's response, they make up rules as they go along all the time, and even if your right, you probably will not have enough money to prove it. There are members of this forum, and others, who had C&R licenses for many years and did everything 100% legal. In the early 90's the state decided they didn't want them operating in NJ and along with the ATF arrested them as unlicensed gun dealers and seized all their guns. The charges were dismissed in court a few YEARS later after protracted court battles, but the message the state was saying was clear - we are going to arbitrarily decide what is allowed despite what the law says.

Let's not forget that we currently have an Attorney General, who has Arbitrarily stopped Direct CMP sales because SHE didnt like the idea of people getting firearms without having to go through an NJ FFL, And Arbitrarily reversed the NJSP's firearms Investigative unit decision to allow sales of the Auto-Ordnance Carbine version..even though by the definition of the statute it was NOT Substansively identical to the Listed firearm in the AWB.

[vladtepes 1,060]

In NJ you cannot manufacture firearms without a state manufacturing license and an 02 FFL, even if it's for your own personal use. Bending 80% flats into receivers is considered manufacturing in NJ.

 

 

ugh... ridiculous..

 

can a NJ resident legally build a gun at his "uncles house in PA"? or do manufacturing laws coincide with the state you are a resident of..

[n4p226r 105]

ugh... ridiculous..

 

can a NJ resident legally build a gun at his "uncles house in PA"? or do manufacturing laws coincide with the state you are a resident of..

 

That's kinda the whole point of the thread