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vladtepes

Is *Insert any semi automatic handgun* legal in NJ?

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Ok. So, legality aside. I just looked at the video demonstrating the item that is being bandied back and forth.

That thing is stupid.

While it may be necessary in CA, at this time it is thankfully unnecessary in N.J. If it came to pass where we needed something like that, it is better than most of these devices, but still - it’s bag of hammers stupid at this place, at this time.

A “Pistol grip” and a “detachable magazine” are the two parts that are most useful on the AR platform - especially in NJ. In a state where you are required to only keep 10 round magazines, the only thing that makes the reduced capacity even remotely workable is the ability is simply and quickly swap mags with a removeable mag, and a pistol grip allowing you to keep positive control of the carbine allowing fast shots and easy handling when conducting administrative functions and effective TTPs.

So, which “evil”* do you think should take precedence over that ability? Why should someone purposefully create a fixed mag version of an AR? Is it to:

• Install a grenade launcher? C’mon. 

• Have a bayonet lug? Most ARs today have free float tubes with low-profile gas blocks that remove the lug altogether. The bayonet lug is practically vistigial at this point.

• Have a flash hider or threaded and unpinned barrel? For most people the substitution of a brake, a compensator, or even a crowned muzzle is adequate. There are a few brakes and comps out there that also do a decent job at reducing flash - although most flash reduction is a function of quality ammo designed for reduced flash and barrel length. Also, many ARs are 14.5” and are required to follow the federal standard of pinning anyway. 

• Having a folding or telescoping stock? Maybe this is a little more useful than the others but it is not as important as a removable mag or pistol grip IMO. Personally, once I find the LOP I find useful on an AR, I don’t tounch it again. Additionally, there are plenty of options out there to make a fixed stock that doesn’t cause permanent damage to a receiver extension. You can swap fixed stocks with LOP or add an adjustable if in a free state, then bring it back to a fixed stock when you return home to Jersey. If you want the folding or telescoping ability for mere storage, maybe just buy a new case/safe/bag/locker.

Serious question - Is the presence of any of these features more important than a carbine with the ability to simply and quickly swap reduced capacity magazines?  I don’t think any of those features is more important or useful than a quick and efficient mag swap. I just don’t see where the juice is with the squeeze with this thing.....

 

 

* Note: I don’t think any of these features should be “evil” but we have to work within the current N.J. laws as passed until such time as something changes. 

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personally I hate muzzle brakes on 5.56, I'd rather a 3 prong. The benefits of a brake on a 5.56 rifle is minimal over a flash hider. .308 and bigger calibers? doesn't bother me as much. However much of the reasons a 5.56 rifle being a tactical rifle is gone when you have a brake on it. If you're doing 3 gun sure there's benefits to a muzzle brake. 

Additionally I don't like having a pinned muzzle device, having to change out the gas block if need be inflates the cost of the repair more, I'm not as concerned about changing rails/free float barrel conversion, I rather just buy a gun that already has what I want there. but if I wanted to change to an adjustable gas block, or have to replace a busted gas block....add on another $200 in repairs to re thread the barrel and put a new brake on when there was nothing wrong with the original one.

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3 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

personally I hate muzzle brakes on 5.56, I'd rather a 3 prong. The benefits of a brake on a 5.56 rifle is minimal over a flash hider. .308 and bigger calibers? doesn't bother me as much. However much of the reasons a 5.56 rifle being a tactical rifle is gone when you have a brake on it. If you're doing 3 gun sure there's benefits to a muzzle brake. 

Additionally I don't like having a pinned muzzle device, having to change out the gas block if need be inflates the cost of the repair more, I'm not as concerned about changing rails/free float barrel conversion, I rather just buy a gun that already has what I want there. but if I wanted to change to an adjustable gas block, or have to replace a busted gas block....add on another $200 in repairs to re thread the barrel and put a new brake on when there was nothing wrong with the original one.

Just curious.. how many “busted gas blocks” have you come across? 

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I work for the DoD fixing broken weapons, a lot.

ones not abused by our armed forces: not as many, but that depends on the quality rifle you are using. PSA's for example are a gun that you get what you pay for because a $500 rifle doesn't have the same quality control as one that costs $1000, I've read enough reports of blown gas blocks on PSA's that it's not enough to say it's reputable issues of theirs but enough for me to not want to buy one of their guns. Blown gas blocks aren't common, but if they do happen the repair does become costly due to the other work involved to get to it and that comes down to how much is the rifle worth to you? Are you willing to put another $200+ in to a rifle? Of course using PSA as my example again, you probably just buy another $500 rifle from them.

More relatable to why i don't like it: pre-FFL days I bought my AR-10, it's a great gun but it is over gassed, I wanted to switch to a POF adjustable gas block...$150 part, I asked the gunsmith who did the compliance work on it originally how much it will cost for me to do the upgrade, adding in a new muzzle brake and the labor associated with the job now became a $500 job to rethread barrel, new brake, pinning it etc. had the brake not been pinned to begin with, I could have done the gas block myself.

 

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29 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

personally I hate muzzle brakes on 5.56, I'd rather a 3 prong. The benefits of a brake on a 5.56 rifle is minimal over a flash hider. .308 and bigger calibers? doesn't bother me as much. However much of the reasons a 5.56 rifle being a tactical rifle is gone when you have a brake on it. If you're doing 3 gun sure there's benefits to a muzzle brake. 

Additionally I don't like having a pinned muzzle device, having to change out the gas block if need be inflates the cost of the repair more, I'm not as concerned about changing rails/free float barrel conversion, I rather just buy a gun that already has what I want there. but if I wanted to change to an adjustable gas block, or have to replace a busted gas block....add on another $200 in repairs to re thread the barrel and put a new brake on when there was nothing wrong with the original one.

Lol! Aren’t you the guy that tells people to not be poor? 

My primary use for my rifles is “tactical” and all of my rifles have a brake or comp on them. While I agree they aren’t necessary, they all do offer a measure of increased control on the carbine. When I shoot on a timer, I see some measurable benefit to them. They definitely don’t make my carbines unusable in their designated role. Also, as I stated earlier, there are some brakes/comps that do a decent job at reducing flash that are N.J. legal.

For the rifles used socially, I use a blast-diffuser or blast shield like the Surefire Warden.

How often are you replacing gas blocks that a fixed mag makes more sense than a removable muzzle device? Generally, when a gas block is shot out, the barrel also need to be replaced anyway.

If for some strange reason you want an adjustable gas block on an already built rifle (which seems at odds with the rest of your position as I read between the lines) there are quite a few quality 2 piece adjustable gas blocks out there that are priced affordably and easily installed.

In any event, are you saying that you would rather have a threaded muzzle with an unpinned flash hider than an easily removable magazine?

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12 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

I work for the DoD fixing broken weapons, a lot.

ones not abused by our armed forces: not as many, but that depends on the quality rifle you are using. PSA's for example are a gun that you get what you pay for because a $500 rifle doesn't have the same quality control as one that costs $1000, I've read enough reports of blown gas blocks on PSA's that it's not enough to say it's reputable issues of theirs but enough for me to not want to buy one of their guns. Blown gas blocks aren't common, but if they do happen the repair does become costly due to the other work involved to get to it and that comes down to how much is the rifle worth to you? Are you willing to put another $200+ in to a rifle? Of course using PSA as my example again, you probably just buy another $500 rifle from them.

More relatable to why i don't like it: pre-FFL days I bought my AR-10, it's a great gun but it is over gassed, I wanted to switch to a POF adjustable gas block...$150 part, I asked the gunsmith who did the compliance work on it originally how much it will cost for me to do the upgrade, adding in a new muzzle brake and the labor associated with the job now became a $500 job to rethread barrel, new brake, pinning it etc. had the brake not been pinned to begin with, I could have done the gas block myself.

 

Since when are PSA rifles DOD approved?

You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel here in defense of your position with some very specific examples that are rare in the overall scheme of things.

Most folks are better served with a pinned/fixed stock, pinned comp or brake, and no bayo lug - while retaining the regular removabel mag and standard pistol grip on an AR than not. There is no need to reinvent the wheel or get creative. If someone just wants to be different, that’s fine - but don’t try to sell It as better.

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It's time to block Lord_Fudd.

His (supposed) FFL-07 has apparently gotten to his brain because he thinks he's the be-all, end-all of 2C:39 and 2C:58 knowledge as it applies to non-licensees.

Don't rely on his muddled thinking to keep you out of legal hot water here in NJ.

Sayonara, and don't forget to take some treats for Greenie.

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who taught you reading comprehension?

28 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

I work for the DoD fixing broken weapons, a lot.

ones not abused by our armed forces: not as many, but that depends on the quality rifle you are using. PSA's for example are a gun that you get what you pay for because a $500 rifle doesn't have the same quality control as one that costs $1000, I've read enough reports of blown gas blocks on PSA's that it's not enough to say it's reputable issues of theirs but enough for me to not want to buy one of their guns.

 

as for me telling people not to be poor, yes and spending an extra $200 for a repair is not being poor. In my example I said how I was quoted $500 in parts and labor to change out the gas block on my AR-10. the over gassed feeling is annoying, but not $500 annoying. Becomes a choice of “wants” rather than “needs” but when your “needs” do involve a repair over a broken gas block, it’s still extra money spent to comply with do nothing laws.

7 minutes ago, njJoniGuy said:

It's time to block Lord_Fudd.

His (supposed) FFL-07 has apparently gotten to his brain because he thinks he's the be-all, end-all of 2C:39 and 2C:58 knowledge as it applies to non-licensees.

Don't rely on his muddled thinking to keep you out of legal hot water here in NJ.

Sayonara, and don't forget to take some treats for Greenie.

i don't know how i'll sleep tonight :rolleyes:

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46 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

who taught you reading comprehension?

Well, for one, your opening statement is in no way, shape, or form, easily understandable in the English language. It follows no accepted format for the written word and, as written, can be interpreted many different way.

The lack of a capital O and the inclusion of an unnecessary colon makes your second sentence nonsense at best, intentionally misleading at worst.

Gimb4Lm.gif

The above .gif is an attempt at humor. Not a personal attack. Please don’t take it as such.

I understand typos happen, I make them all the time. I also understand that people make mistakes with spelling and grammar, I get it. But don’t call my reading comprehension into question when your post is what is jacked up. 

A better way to go about it may be to clarify your statement. Because at this point I still don’t know what you are trying to say. Simply bolding the text of a poorly crafted sentence does nothing to enhance the clarity of your statement.

Second - What weapon systems do you repair for DOD. I was unaware that DOD uses an outside vendor for weapon maintenance? I was under the impression that they will either use their own unit level armorers, send it to depot level gunsmiths, or call on the manufacturer to make serious repairs. 

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I guess spacing between sentences isn’t telling enough to separate statements :rolleyes: next time i’ll format my posts in MLA for you.

I work directly for the DoD, not a vendor.

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3 hours ago, Lord_Fudd said:

More relatable to why i don't like it: pre-FFL days I bought my AR-10, it's a great gun but it is over gassed, I wanted to switch to a POF adjustable gas block...$150 part, I asked the gunsmith who did the compliance work on it originally how much it will cost for me to do the upgrade, adding in a new muzzle brake and the labor associated with the job now became a $500 job to rethread barrel, new brake, pinning it etc. had the brake not been pinned to begin with, I could have done the gas block myself.

first of all.. why are you rethreading a barrel when you remove a permanently attached brake.. I have removed 3 myself... and as long as you are cautious its not even that difficult of a job... 

new brake goes on.. pin goes in.. weld over the pin.. 

even if the welding portion was too much (which I could understand for someone) the rest of all of that is nonsense... 


but this has really gotten away from the main topic.. the main topic is your questionable (at best) advice... 

you tell people "the mag modification is OK because I talked to someone on the phone about it"
you then go on to tell people "LAW folder is good to go because someone told me"

and then High Exposure who I have absolutely no reason not to trust says the complete opposite and states he has it in writing... no offense but I would take his advice backed by something in writing over your opinion... 

we have gone back and forth a million times about this mag thing and you make amazing effort to ignore the following question but I will ask one more time... just in case I am just missing it.. 

the state says "ability to accept a detachable magazine" 
literally meaning a box that can hold ammunition and readily feed it into a firearm.. 
it makes NO reference to the actual removal of the magazine.. the verbiage is very clearly ABILITY TO ACCEPT.. 

"can the gun... have a detachable magazine put in it"

the answer is YES with all of the various mag release options.. the gun still accepts a detachable magazine.. meaning you can hold the gun in one hand.. and take a magazine in your other.. and push it into the gun.. 

if you are "working on guns for the DOD" this should not be a complex thing for you to understand... 

the reason they work out in CA is because they go through the trouble of defining further.. 

"978.20(a) - Detachable Magazine

The proposed definition as originally noticed to the public defined a detachable magazine as “any magazine that can be readily removed without the use of tools.” 
 

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1. This is what the gunsmith quoted me for the repair. When i bought said rifle from him originally the compliancy work was flawless, you can’t even tell it’s been pinned and welded...quality work in, quality work out.

2. Like i said, you are an adult, you decide how you want to interpret a law. I’ll keep deflecting your argument as long as you keep deflecting my question. 

I could be here saying F you all I don’t have to comply and flex all the stuff I have that average Joe can’t....but I don’t. However i’m still offering help and options to others, I’ve never once said I’m a lawyer or offering legal options, just showing what’s out there.

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47 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

1. This is what the gunsmith quoted me for the repair. When i bought said rifle from him originally the compliancy work was flawless, you can’t even tell it’s been pinned and welded...quality work in, quality work out.

2. Like i said, you are an adult, you decide how you want to interpret a law. I’ll keep deflecting your argument as long as you keep deflecting my question. 

I could be here saying F you all I don’t have to comply and flex all the stuff I have that average Joe can’t....but I don’t. However i’m still offering help and options to others, I’ve never once said I’m a lawyer or offering legal options, just showing what’s out there.

OK I will bite.. what is your question.. I must have missed it and for that I apologize..

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57 minutes ago, vladtepes said:

you tell people "the mag modification is OK because I talked to someone on the phone about it"
you then go on to tell people "LAW folder is good to go because someone told me"

and then High Exposure who I have absolutely no reason not to trust says the complete opposite and states he has it in writing... no offense but I would take his advice backed by something in writing over your opinion... 
 

The person he talked to on the phone is pretty much the only person that gives any guidance to ffls and is the person that would be called to be the states witness if a case was brought against someone.  I believe he spoke at safecon and is very respected.

I have nothing against High Exposure but if he has this letter i'm sure many of us would like to see it.

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6 minutes ago, cabalrayz said:

The person he talked to on the phone is pretty much the only person that gives any guidance to ffls and is the person that would be called to be the states witness if a case was brought against someone.  I believe he spoke at safecon and is very respected.

I have nothing against High Exposure but if he has this letter i'm sure many of us would like to see it.

the problem since the beginning of this exchange is simple.. and the same thing I said from the start... I am NOT stating it is good to go or not.. what I am stating is I do not believe it is good to go based on the literal writings of the law... and IF the state sees it differently then fantastic.. but if that is not documented somewhere... good luck.. 

I specifically said in regard to the LAW folder that you MAY be able to "beat any charges".. but unfortunately the problem starts way sooner than that.. the problem starts when for whatever reason a normal every day cop ends up in your life viewing a folder on an AR15... there is a high probability that if they are even familiar with the gun law.. they would consider that illegal.. and now you have just boarded the NJ legal system roller coaster.. 

I have said a million times that gun owners are their worst enemy.. and I am not interested in paranoia or fear mongering... so the policy I see best being.. the law.. as it is literally written unless clarified.. and that is all I have been saying since post one.. 

"ability to accept a detachable magazine" means what it says... can you put a mag in the gun? if yes.. it is accepting a detachable magazine.. if the state disagrees.. then wonderful I guess if you would rather have a threaded barrel.. or flash hider.. or grenade launcher or something.. but since NJ is unlike CA and lacks the clarification of use of tools.. then there is no reason to think that the CA solutions apply to NJ... 

if he is friends with this guy.. great.. get them to spit out some letters clarifying.. because letters are something that can keep people out of trouble.. 

just imagine.. you are at the range with your law tactical folder.. CA bullet button thing... bayonet.. and flash hider and you are confronted by local LEO... what do you say.. "this guy on a gun forum is friends with the state police and he said that they talked on the phone and it is OK"

I am going to guess that that conversation will not get you very far... 

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36 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

> implying people actually give a shit what you're shooting at a gun range

not at all.. in fact high unlikely.. technically.. you could probably get through life with a crate of 30 round mags in your garage... doubt anyone would notice the bayonet lug... probably not a lot of scrutiny as to if it is a brake or a flash hider.. 

but the conversation isn't about what you can get away with.. its about what is legal and what is not.. 

if you want to talk about what you can get away with? probably an awful lot... I don't believe the state is going around looking for things like that.. I just think they happen to come across them... you know.. during a traffic stop for a cracked windshield.. where a nervous gun owner offers up more info than is needed.. 

I used to race cars... and I got pulled over once because an officer saw my nitrous tank in the back.. next thing you know there is another officer and the supervisor.. 3 cop cars deep over a tank of compressed gas.. the exchanges were all civil but I got a ticket.. I fought it in court and it was dismissed.. but it still happened.. they thought they could write the ticket.. so they did.. and figured as always... that the court would sort it out.. 

thats the issue I have with a lot of your suggestions... its not personal at all.. its not that I think you are clearly wrong.. it is simply that your opinion stretches beyond that which is defined.. so it is very possible that if someone follows your recommendation that the LAW folder is good to go (for example).. they may have to defend themselves in court over that opinion... I think it is irresponsible to put info like that out there.. without some written guidance from the state.... 

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when has relying on the government has worked out well for us has it? This is an unwritten rule across the gun community nationally: you don't write letters to the ATF,  you don't write to your local police to ask about gun shit...that's how things do get outlawed.

I understand your concern with nervous gun owners, and it's a frustrating subject.....my advice has always been if you get pulled over and you have a gun in your trunk, what's out of sight is out of sight and don't say anything. this is a conversation that's come up before with new gun owners who's first inclination is to tell a cop they have a gun in a trunk, which of course welcomes questioning and inspection.

Sadly the anti-gun culture in this state makes gun owners feel like they're bending the rules by lawfully carrying a gun in a compartment that they're entitled to privacy for. It's like they have never bent the rules in their life.

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1 hour ago, cabalrayz said:

The person he talked to on the phone is pretty much the only person that gives any guidance to ffls and is the person that would be called to be the states witness if a case was brought against someone.  I believe he spoke at safecon and is very respected.

I have nothing against High Exposure but if he has this letter i'm sure many of us would like to see it.

Attached is an email from DSFC Brett Bloom of the NJSP Firearms Unit, the same person Lord_Fudd is talking about, that states the LAW folder is a no go. This was an official request to him from my agency for information.

Vf9wwGW.jpg

I redacted the email for per-sec reasons.

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that's what I was originally told, and that's what I questioned (and what i said on here) you can fire 1 round with it folded, but the bolt doesn't cycle....which wouldn't make it Semi-Automatic. There's another one from Deadfoot Arms which uses a modified BCG and buffer which do allow AR's to cycle folded, that i can understand....same with a folding stock on a MCX, AK, SCAR...any gun with an internal recoil spring. 

Without really knowing, my guess is the NJSP would have to do a case study but don't want to do it. 

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2 hours ago, Lord_Fudd said:

that's what I was originally told, and that's what I questioned (and what i said on here) you can fire 1 round with it folded, but the bolt doesn't cycle....which wouldn't make it Semi-Automatic. There's another one from Deadfoot Arms which uses a modified BCG and buffer which do allow AR's to cycle folded, that i can understand....same with a folding stock on a MCX, AK, SCAR...any gun with an internal recoil spring. 

Without really knowing, my guess is the NJSP would have to do a case study but don't want to do it. 

so you were told its good to go.. or its not good to go?

looks like high exposure already has a pretty clear answer? from the person you get your info from?

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