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Is the STI Trojan Model Worth The Extra Cost Over the Spartan?

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I saw a used STI Trojan 9mm for $900.00. It's a lot of money for a used 1911.

Is it worth that much more than the Spartan which new is around $650?

 

I've been considering a 9mm 1911 for a while. Seems like you can only get

something on the lower/medium end like RIA/Taurus or high end like Kimber,

S&W. STI Spartan seems to be the closest to the middle you can get.

 

Problem is when you get to the middle you start to say hmm... for only this much

more.... I could get... You all know that game, I don't need to explain it.

 

So help push me one way or another.

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We actually had a thread about this not too long ago. The general gist of it was that while there are a number of differences between them, not all of them lend themselved to making the Trojan "better". Some are upgrades, some are cosmetic, some are functional, but quite a few were subjective to your idea of "better". One has a nicer looking finish, but if its just a shooter, who cares. one has an undercut trigger guard which is definitely a positive. One is flat topped (or tri-topped, i forget) but again, a nice touch but not necessary. one has stippled front strap, but its too slick to be effective so meh. unfortunately there's nothing in teh action that makes it better or slicker so there's no advantage there.

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I read somewhere that the trojan has a ramped barrel while the spartan does not. making the trojan have a more reliable feeding system. Though for 100 years the 1911 was never ramped, and had no issues.

 

Again, this is what i read. Not my personal belief

 

Its funny this popped up. i am in the same debate, choosing between the 2 from the dawson precision comp ready line

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The ramped barrel is not really more reliable but is better able to have a more supported chamber.

 

Do you have it reversed? Ramped barrels are the ones often missing case support at the 6 o'clock position.

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Spartan is made in the Phillipines. Trojan is made here. Part of the price difference as well.

 

C

 

"Made in Philippines" doesn't quite give the full picture though. Armscor uses STI parts and assembles the STI Spartan in the Philippines. The guns are shipped back to STI in Texas and they are examined for workmanship/fitting there. Some small percentage of them actually ends up needing any tweaking. I am not someone who buys cheap guns to save money. I wait until I have the money to buy the gun I want. That said, the only feature the Trojan has that I think is better is the forged frame and undercut trigger guard. I think I would probably go with a Dawson tuned Spartan. especially if it was going to be a gun that took the regular abuse of competition. I haven't read a convincing argument yet about the forged frame's superiority over a cast frame. It may be true, but most of the arguments go like "John Moses Browning decreed that a frame must be forged..."

BTW, the front chainlink pattern on the Trojan's grip is crap IMO. I don't think it would make a lick of difference in how well I grip the gun.

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"Made in Philippines" doesn't quite give the full picture though. Armscor uses STI parts and assembles the STI Spartan in the Philippines. The guns are shipped back to STI in Texas and they are examined for workmanship/fitting there. Some small percentage of them actually ends up needing any tweaking. I am not someone who buys cheap guns to save money. I wait until I have the money to buy the gun I want. That said, the only feature the Trojan has that I think is better is the forged frame and undercut trigger guard. I think I would probably go with a Dawson tuned Spartan. especially if it was going to be a gun that took the regular abuse of competition. I haven't read a convincing argument yet about the forged frame's superiority over a cast frame. It may be true, but most of the arguments go like "John Moses Browning decreed that a frame must be forged..."

BTW, the front chainlink pattern on the Trojan's grip is crap IMO. I don't think it would make a lick of difference in how well I grip the gun.

 

 

Thats where im stuck at now. I have $850 and could by the Dawson CRP Spartan Blued, or wait a few weeks and spring for the Dawson CRP Trojan.

 

If its a more accurate & reliable pistol than the Spartan, Then i am all in for saving and waiting the extra couple weeks. If not...Then i have no problem not having checkering and i dont even know what an undercut trigger guard is so it probally doesnt even matter to me.

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That said, the only feature the Trojan has that I think is better is the forged frame....

 

FYI - The Trojan frame is not forged. The first gun in their line (target sights, pricewise) with a forged frame is the Sentry.

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FYI - The Trojan frame is not forged. The first gun in their line (target sights, pricewise) with a forged frame is the Sentry.

 

Thanks Bob. Even more reason to go for the Spartan. If someone really feels strongly about the trigger guard, I would think they can get a gunsmith to do it for less than the cost difference.

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I have some kimbers, and a STI. STI is a no flaw gun. Nothing needs to be done to that gun, while kimbers work perfectly after about 500 rounds.

STI is the way to go. Its out of the box dead accurate and an all around great battle gun.

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Typically, the answer to this question is yes. Especially if you get a model tweaked by Dawson or whomever.

Meh, that $200 dawson "tweak" job is a waste. It's just a fluff and buff and they don't even touch the action!

 

Do you have it reversed? Ramped barrels are the ones often missing case support at the 6 o'clock position.

I believe that ramped barrels were invented to offer both better support and better feeding. I think first started to come around when 38 super was growing in popularity and the guns with traditional ramped frames had too wide a throat and letting the high pressure 38 supers rupture cases. Ramped barrels have a more precise feeding of the round so the throating can be narrowed up and support the case better.

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My only other question is about the trojan being ramped and the spartan not. How big of a difference does that make in the pistol?

 

Im going to call dawson later today and see how much their action job's are as well.

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Joe, its tough to say if there's going to be any difference. Most 1911's chambered in anything other than 45 is going to have a ramped barrel anymore. Initially it was for better case support but 9mm may not need that specific feature so the ramped frame style would be fine so long as it feeds properly. OTOH, you probably wouldn't want a non-ramped barrel .40.

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I would love to get it in 9mm, but i have heard enough stories about the 1911 chambered in 9mm. So i feel i am forced to go with the 45 acp. Which is fine seeing how i have $250 worth of Wilson mags for it anyway.

 

-----------------------

 

This same topic was brought up on THR and the consensous was >

 

-The Trojan also has a ramped barrel while the Spartan has the ramped frame...

 

- after 60k rounds you can have a gunsmith custom ramp a barrel and bushing for your replacement

 

- The trigger guard can be undercut by a smith as well.

 

-------------------------------

 

So it looks like i am going with the spartan,blued, Dawson CRP, with dawson action job, With great hopes that it outshoots my Springfield Loaded

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I meant difference in reliability. How each is ramped is a fact, no need to have a consensus on that. :p

Getting a reliable 9mm 1911 is a crapshoot though. Some brands do it better than others and some feed fine with some types of ammo and not others so it can be frustrating if you get a finicky one. At least the 45 is more of a known quantity so i can't blame you there for wanting something more reliable. My Spartan V is dead reliable and has never had any issue as of yet (though i have only fed it 230gr FMJ ammo).

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Thanks for all the comments. Looks like it's more of a personal

decision (what isn't?). I've always been the type to opt for the

nicer gun even if it isn't technically better.

 

Is $900 a decent price used? Condition was real good.

 

Mags concern me. If I really wanna use it gotta get 4 more

and I heard 9mm 1911 mags are $$$.

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Joe, its tough to say if there's going to be any difference. Most 1911's chambered in anything other than 45 is going to have a ramped barrel anymore. Initially it was for better case support but 9mm may not need that specific feature so the ramped frame style would be fine so long as it feeds properly. OTOH, you probably wouldn't want a non-ramped barrel .40.

 

That's funny. From my experience with Glocks and tales of Kaboom, I always assumed that there was great difficulty in making a ramped barrel that had full support. I suppose rather it is the dance between a more reliably feeding and less supported chamber versus a less reliable feeding and more supported chamber.

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Mags concern me. If I really wanna use it gotta get 4 more

and I heard 9mm 1911 mags are $$$.

 

They range from about $32 and up. Midway has Wilson's on sale occasionally, but they tend to be in a constant state of backorder. You'll get them, just don't hold your breath. Heard good things abou4ty the Tripp 9mm mags - but they are on the "up" side of the scale.

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That's funny. From my experience with Glocks and tales of Kaboom, I always assumed that there was great difficulty in making a ramped barrel that had full support. I suppose rather it is the dance between a more reliably feeding and less supported chamber versus a less reliable feeding and more supported chamber.

 

Is this a fully supported 9mm Chamber with ramped barrel? This is/was my HK USP 9mm compact. That thing would shoot anything (but lead).

 

IMG_0333.JPG

 

They range from about $32 and up. Midway has Wilson's on sale occasionally, but they tend to be in a constant state of backorder. You'll get them, just don't hold your breath. Heard good things abou4ty the Tripp 9mm mags - but they are on the "up" side of the scale.

 

My fear exactly. So now it's not a 900 gun, it's a 900 + 32 x 5 = $1060 gun. But I guess once you spend that much it's whatever...

 

You see what this gun hobby does man! I can no longer reason properly when it comes to money.

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That's funny. From my experience with Glocks and tales of Kaboom, I always assumed that there was great difficulty in making a ramped barrel that had full support. I suppose rather it is the dance between a more reliably feeding and less supported chamber versus a less reliable feeding and more supported chamber.

With Glocks, its different. It's a product of sloppy chambers and too deep a throat and not solely related to being ramped. Many other manufacturers, if not most, have the same configuration and don't suffer the same excessive "bellying" of cases.

 

Back to 1911's, the "ramped frame" notion is even a bit of a misnomer as its a combination of ramping in the frame and ramping of the barrel which is just some beveling and throating to the bottom edge of the chamber. The issue with that is that its generally done in a very wide fashion for 45's and translating that to a high pressure, smaller diameter case lends itself to lesser overall case support. Combining feeding and support, you are going to compromise something and high pressure cases defintely want more support. You can narrow the ramping and make the throat more shallow but then you make feeding more difficult.

 

Going to a ramped barrel 1911, you let the ramp do the feeding and the chamber can be fully supported so long as you don't throat it too agressively to compensate for feedramp inadequacies or problematic ammo. With this style you split the functions of feeding and supporting and then the high presure cases are happy again.

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Well for me, i am going to be shooting 200 gr LSWC. So i want all the help i can get when it come to feeding. For half the price of FMJ i tend to stick with this load.

 

(For the most part they feed so-so out of my SA Loaded. i just need to bring own my OAL a little more.)

 

But the Dawson STI (Spartan or Trojan) is going to be my Sunday Steel & USPSA Single Stack gun.

 

-I also just called Dawson Precision and they told me they NO LONGER do "Action Jobs".

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While there are ramped barrel 45ACP 1911's out there, its of little advantage to have one in that configuration. Again, thier biggest benefit is with support for the higher pressure calibers. Ramped barrels also tend to be steeper and narrower than ramped frames and if you reload with a bullet that is know to be finicky in feeding, you may exacerbate the issue by going with that type of system.

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While there are ramped barrel 45ACP 1911's out there, its of little advantage to have one in that configuration. Again, thier biggest benefit is with support for the higher pressure calibers. Ramped barrels also tend to be steeper and narrower than ramped frames and if you reload with a bullet that is know to be finicky in feeding, you may exacerbate the issue by going with that type of system.

 

So in short, I would be better off with the spartan?

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I don't know if this helps, but my Kimber which is a standard ramped frame shot Wad Cutters with absolutely no issues.

Lead round nose bullets though are really about the same price as wad cutters so if anything you can always stick to

those.

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I called STI just now. The poor girl was so confused lol i felt bad. i talked to a gentleman who said for the LSWC the Trojan would be a more reliable platform in both 9mm and 45acp. Maybe because theyre trying to put out a more expensive product, but either way by the sound of his voice he was more confident in the Trojans ability over the spartan for what i am looking to do with it. SWC or not.

 

 

So Maybe i need to go back to the drawing board on this.

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