millsan1 3 Posted February 27, 2013 Following is my rebuttal to this bill. I would like to hear opinion on this. A3687 Amends N.J.S.2C:58-3 Amends section 1 to add: c.9 To any person named on the consolidated Terrorist Watchlist maintained by Terrorist Screening Center administed (typo in bill) by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Relevant sections of the code: f. (removed for clarity) A firearms purchaser identification card shall be valid until such time as the holder becomes subject to any of the disabilities set forth in subsection c. of this section, whereupon the card shall be void and shall be returned within five days by the holder to the superintendent, who shall then advise the licensing authority. Failure of the holder to return the firearms purchaser identification card to the superintendent within the said five days shall be an offense under subsection a. of N.J.S.2C:39-10. (Removed for clarity) STATEMENT This bill would disqualify a person named on the consolidated Terrorist Watchlist maintained by the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Terrorist Screening Center from being issued either a firearm’s identification card or a permit to purchase a handgun. Point one: As per the Department of Homeland Security website: “The U.S. government does not reveal whether a particular person (emphasis added) is on or not on a watchlist.” Given this information, it is impossible to check if a person who is applying for a firearms ID card or purchasing a firearm is or is not named on the list. Point two: The Terrorist Watch list has 2 sections, the “No Fly” list, made of people who may not board and airplane. Secondly, the “Selectee” list, made of people who must undergo further screening before boarding aircraft. The bill does not designate which list is to be used for reference. While the No Fly list is more likely to be populated with “known terrorists”, the Selectee list is populated with names. If your name matches one of these you are likely to be included. Since the US Government does not share whether a particular person is on the list or not, many people are on the list simply by name, with no way of identifying a particular person. I.e. John Adams is on the list, so any and all John Adams fall under the auspices of this law, since you cannot check the list for John Adams of 123 Main Street, as the federal government will not share that specific information. Point three. There is a redress procedure for applying for what is known as a Redress Control Number. This number is received after proving to Department of Homeland Security that you are wrongfully on the Terrorist Watch List. This DOES NOT remove you from the list. You are merely given a control number to identify you as being wrongfully on the list. Additionally, 99% of those who seek redress are granted redress. Meaning, that 1% of those on the selectee list are on the list with good reason. 99% do not belong on the list. The FBI does not accept redress applications from individuals. An individual must go through the “screening agency” to request redress. There is no language in the bill relating to redress or which agency to go through. Point four. According to section f of the code, if section c.9 is added, when a person is flying and finds themselves detained, they have to turn in their firearms ID card within 5 days or face criminal sanctions. Unfortunately, those persons would not KNOW whether they were on the Terrorist Watch List or not, as that information is not shared. Suggested actions: Bill should not be brought to the floor of the Senate. Amend the bill to only apply to those on the “No Fly” list, as the “Selectee” list is too broad. Amend the bill to allow purchase of firearms when a Redress Control Number has been acquired and allow Redress Control Number to be used when flagged for future purchases. Amend the bill to require the AG or NJSP to establish redress procedures before bill is enacted. Amend the bill to modify section f to exempt c9 from the list of disabilities, as a person cannot know if they are on the list, but could inadvertently violate the law as written. Reference items: The following set of data was obtained from the Department of Homeland Security web site or the FBI website on one or more of the following pages. http://www.dhs.gov/step-1-should-i-use-dhs-trip http://www.dhs.gov/step-2-how-use-dhs-trip http://www.dhs.gov/step-3-after-your-inquiry http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/nsb/tsc/tsc_redress Only the relevant portions of the pages are included, to enhance readability. No edits to content have been made, except emphasis which is followed by (emphasis added). When Should You Use DHS TRIP? DHS TRIP can help you work to resolve travel-related issues when You believe the U.S. government's record of your personal information is inaccurate What is the terrorist watchlist? Two subsets of the terrorist watchlist are the “No Fly” list and “Selectee” list: The “No Fly” list includes individuals who are prohibited from boarding an aircraft. You are NOT on the No Fly list if you receive a boarding pass. The “Selectee” list includes individuals who must undergo additional security screening before being permitted to board an aircraft. How do I know if I am on a Government Watchlist? The U.S. government does not reveal whether a particular person (emphasis added) is on or not on a watchlist. Because the contents of the consolidated terrorist watchlist are derived from classified and sensitive law enforcement and intelligence information, the TSC cannot confirm or deny whether an individual is on the watchlist (emphasis added). Ninety-nine percent (emphasis added) of individuals who apply for redress are not on the terrorist watchlist, but are misidentified as people who are. Using DHS TRIP DHS TRIP uses an online form that you complete using your computer and an Internet connection. It takes just a few moments to complete the screens and submit your complaint. You will be asked to submit documentation to complete the redress process.. For U.S. citizens Please provide a legible copy of an unexpired U.S. passport. If you do not have a U.S. passport, please provide at least one legible copy of an unexpired government-issued photo identification document from the list below. How the Information You Submit Will Be Used The information that you provide will be used to process your request for redress. To process your request, DHS TRIP will share this information within the Department and outside the Department with components or entities that can help address the underlying issues regarding your redress request. DHS TRIP may share information about you with airlines or other third parties where necessary to implement the redress resolution. In very limited circumstances, information from an individual may be shared for reasons not related to the redress process (emphasis added). For example, if a person were to submit information indicating illegal activity, such as providing a fraudulent passport or driver's license, this information may be turned over to appropriate authorities for proper investigation. Redress Control Number When you submit your DHS TRIP Traveler Inquiry Form, the DHS TRIP system automatically assigns you a Redress Control Number. You will be able to use this number to track the status of your inquiry. After your inquiry is completed, you will also be able to use the number when you make an airline reservation. When you make an airline reservation, provide your redress number when requested by your travel arranger or airline representative, or when prompted by an interactive reservation system. This will enable your airline to determine quickly your identity and reduce the likelihood of mistaken identity during future trips. After the Issue is Resolved DHS TRIP is designed specifically to help travelers improve their travel experience and correct inaccuracies in government records that may contribute to difficulties when traveling. Security procedures and legal concerns mandate that we can neither confirm nor deny any information about you that may be within federal watch lists; we also cannot reveal any law enforcement-sensitive information. (Emphasis added) You Disagree with the Resolution If you feel that your request for redress was resolved incorrectly, please follow the instructions that you received in your resolution letter. FBI - Filing a Redress Inquiry The TSC does not accept redress inquiries directly from the public (emphasis added). Instead, members of the public should contact the relevant screening agency with their questions or concerns about screening. The screening agency is in the best position to identify and resolve issues related to that agency's screening process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lunker 274 Posted February 27, 2013 Excellent. Factual and shows the impossible logistics of the law. Even an anti would have to take pause. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pizza Bob 1,488 Posted February 27, 2013 While that is the real "nuts & bolts" of why this isn't feasible, the real sticking point is that it denies due process. Anyone remember "Innocent until proven guilty?" If we are going to ban purchases based on arbitrary lists, what's next? Adios, Pizza Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M4BGRINGO 139 Posted February 27, 2013 They want to be like the IRS. Guilty until you PROVE to them you are innocent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wile E Coyote 0 Posted February 27, 2013 While that is the real "nuts & bolts" of why this isn't feasible, the real sticking point is that it denies due process. Anyone remember "Innocent until proven guilty?" If we are going to ban purchases based on arbitrary lists, what's next? Adios, Pizza Bob Next the government will be able to prosecute you and you'll have to prove your innocence in court... Wait that sounds familiar... b. Licenses and permits. When the legality of a person's conduct under this chapter depends on his possession of a license or permit or on his having registered with or given notice to a particular person or agency, it shall be presumed that he does not possess such a license or permit or has not registered or given the required notice, until he establishes the contrary Silly NJ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wooly bugger 1 Posted February 27, 2013 Great. I was thinking about point one myself. Are the Feds going to answer the phone each time a police chief who may or may not be legit and say, "home on while I go to my filing cabinet and check that list for you..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n4p226r 105 Posted February 28, 2013 Why even bother following the law. If you are going to be treated like a criminal, might as well get the benefits of being a criminal. I just don't know what the benefits of being a criminal are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DngrZne 0 Posted February 28, 2013 Why even bother following the law. If you are going to be treated like a criminal, might as well get the benefits of being a criminal. I just don't know what the benefits of being a criminal are. You are then eligible to run for New Jersey state office. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bt Doctur 188 Posted February 28, 2013 some of the benefits are not having to abide by and rules and regulations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rlsbee 1 Posted February 28, 2013 My compliments. Your rebuttal is very well stated and obviously took a great deal of research. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millsan1 3 Posted February 28, 2013 Thanks for the feedback. Going to continue in this vein on other bills. Will feed these to NJ2AS and our senators and governor. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n4p226r 105 Posted February 28, 2013 Great write up. Definitely send it everywhere but my thoughts are 1. They don't care 2. Even with the proposed changes I still don't support it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SmartAss 11 Posted February 28, 2013 For reference, Assemblyman Carroll's grilling of the Bill's sponsor on 2/21/2013... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pythagoras 2 Posted March 7, 2013 So refreshing to see Carroll tear Stender apart! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deerpark 83 Posted May 17, 2013 At 4:50 "known terrorists". Lets meet some of the "known terrorists" on the list:6 year old Alyssa Thomas: Senator Ted Kennedy:http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-224_162-610466.htmlActor Mark Ruffalo:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1334159/Actor-Mark-Ruffalo-placed-terror-watch-list.htmlAnd what happens in the absence of alleged criminals? Simple, accuse anyone in order to meet quotas:Marshals: Innocent People Placed On 'Watch List' To Meet Quota Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
10X 3,278 Posted May 17, 2013 Good points here. The most important, in my opinion, is that if you are on the watch list, you are under suspicion and are being watched, but: You have not been accused of a crime. You have not been tried in a court of law You most certainly have not been convicted So...you are innocent. No grounds for deprivation of rights. The no fly list has other problems...one from 2011 is here: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/02/02/time-for-counseling-immigration-officer-adds-wife-to-terrorist-suspect-list/ To summarize, an immigration officer at the UK Border Agency put his wife on the do-not-fly list when his wife left the country to visit her family. She was denied entry back into the UK without explanation – and was unable to return for three years. Once we get past our initial reaction to that (which is "HA! Good One!"), it certainly makes clear how easy it is to abuse the system. The Wikipedia entry for No Fly List details quite a few other problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bennj 215 Posted May 21, 2013 Millsan, Very concise rebuttal, plenty of facts and common sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites