Is S2723 an Improvement on Status Quo?

[TheDon 3]

I’s needs sum edjukashun on S2723

 

Forgive me, I know I am supposed to, but I am not really hating on the new driver’s license endorsement. 

I have read and am trying to understand the lengthy discussion on S2713.  I get arguments about infringing upon our privacy, but I really cannot see how it would be any worse than the status quo. 

While I would be strongly opposed if we lived in America; I actually see S2723 as an improvement to the status quo here in NJ. 

The way I see it, we will have to endure one more colorectal examination, get an endorsement on our driver’s license and then we are good to go.  Then can now buy pistols over the counter just like longrifles on a whim. 

And it is a simple endorsement (letter code) on the back of the license.  It’s not like they are issuing us a red driver’s license or something like that.  So arguments about outting us to the bank teller are kind of ridiculous. 

 

Can we have a thread focused on exploring the potential virtues of supporting the driver’s license endorsement?

[brocglock23 4]

I like the pros that you listed but I believe that when the cops run my info when I get pulled over I'd imagine it comes up that I am also the holder of an F.I.D. However, I'm hoping I'm wrong and that they don't know that I hold an F.I.D. and I would not want it on my license if its going to make them question me or give me a hard time

[TheDon 3]

All that the cops are going to know is that you have a firearm owners endorsement. 

So they know that you have gone your entire life without ever committing a crime.  So what? 

[sixgun 1]

So you dont mind renewing it every four years or any of the other BS you must of missed when reading?

[wooly bugger 1]

So you dont mind renewing it every four years or any of the other BS you must of missed when reading?

This. Even Cryan balked when he thought about the snowballing costs this will impose. Do you think the state is going to suck it up and just invest heavily in manpower to handle the new volume of 25% of gun owners reapplying for their FID every year?

No, we're going to see multi-year backups.

 

As for an invisible endorsement on your DL, how are you going to prove you have a valid ID when ordering ammo online?

[matty 810]

There's a bit more to it than just the driver's license becomes FPID  & 4 year with renewals required, there's ammo purchase changes as well--

[sixgun 1]

.

 

As for an invisible endorsement on your DL, how are you going to prove you have a valid ID when ordering ammo online?

Yep they know it will exclude us from online ammo sales so they wont have to pass a law just for that

[bhunted 887]

It's not just about that! Wish people kept up with these threads! You do NOT want DMV involved in this. Period! They do whatever they want now. How about they remove your endorsement because they get a bug up their arse. They refused to renew my boat license endorsement even though I was exempt! That really pist me off. I was over qualified from Search and Rescue via boat to Helo Rescues! Talk about insulting? I had my boat endorsement well over 16 years! Imagine your FID getting the same treatment? It then takes you months to get it back!!! How about you lose your license maybe because you didn't pay your insurance or keep registration updated? No more FID... Now no driving to work... How about you lose your gun rights for whatever reason, they take your DL away... Again, no drivy, no worky! There are plenty more reasons. They've been discussed to death!

 

 

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[TheDon 3]

So you dont mind renewing it every four years or any of the other BS you must of missed when reading?

Comparing against status quo... I apply for pistol permits every year.  Renewing every 4 years is an improvement. 

[Underdog 1,593]

And, if you forget to update it, or the "instant" 4-year update system is down for the day, then what will you do?  If it lapses, your guns would probably be confiscated. 

 

There isn't anything that our current politicians are interested and doing that doesn't slap down the American Citizen, New Jersey Citizen, etc. in some fashion. 

[TheDon 3]

It's not just about that! Wish people kept up with these threads! You do NOT want DMV involved in this. Period! They do whatever they want now. How about they remove your endorsement because they get a bug up their arse. They refused to renew my boat license endorsement even though I was exempt! That really pist me off. I was over qualified from Search and Rescue via boat to Helo Rescues! Talk about insulting? I had my boat endorsement well over 16 years! Imagine your FID getting the same treatment? It then takes you months to get it back!!! How about you lose your license maybe because you didn't pay your insurance or keep registration updated? No more FID... Now no driving to work... How about you lose your gun rights for whatever reason, they take your DL away... Again, no drivy, no worky! There are plenty more reasons. They've been discussed to death! Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...

 

I get it, John.  But, that is not what I was trying to discuss.  Asside from the hypotheticals of what could go wrong with the proposed new system, what will be the pracitcal differences between where we are now and were we would be. 

I.e., right now we are in "Place A."  Place A sucks really really bad.  If the bill passes, we will be in "Place B."  Relative to Place A, is Place B a better or worse place?  That is all I am asking. 

[Underdog 1,593]

Comparing against status quo... I apply for pistol permits every year.  Renewing every 4 years is an improvement. 

 

 

Do you really think that they would get rid of the current arduous system and replace it with that?  It would most likely be an addition to the current setup.  You would have to renew it every 4 years and still get pistol permits, etc.

 

This is not about making the system any better.  It is about further control and harassment.  If it doesn't directly do it, there will be a backdoor crisis for the legal and responsible gun owners of this state as we set the "model" for the rest of Amerika. 

[TheDon 3]

Do you really think that they would get rid of the current arduous system and replace it with that?  It would most likely be an addition to the current setup.  You would have to renew it every 4 years and still get pistol permits, etc.

 

This is not about making the system any better.  It is about further control and harassment.  If it doesn't directly do it, there will be a backdoor crisis for the legal and responsible gun owners of this state as we set the "model" for the rest of Amerika. 

This is NOT true.  The proposed system clearly replaces the current system.  The current system will only remain in place for people who do not get the FPIC endorsement on the DL. 

[bhunted 887]

Now that's the first time I heard that. Maybe I blinked somewhere, but I cannot see them allowing either or....

 

This is NOT true. The proposed system clearly replaces the current system. The current system will only remain in place for people who do not get the FPIC endorsement on the DL.

 

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[Tunaman 548]

This is NOT true.  The proposed system clearly replaces the current system.  The current system will only remain in place for people who do not get the FPIC endorsement on the DL. 

you show me WHERE in the bill that it states that the new DL endorsement will qualify as a pistol permit..

They will never let this happen.  This bill is total bullshunt.

[TheDon 3]

Now that's the first time I heard that. Maybe I blinked somewhere, but I cannot see them allowing either or....

 

 

 

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Phased out after 4 years.  It is in the Bill.

[TheDon 3]

you show me WHERE in the bill that it states that the new DL endorsement will qualify as a pistol permit..

They will never let this happen.  This bill is total bullshunt.

Page 20, starting at line 40:

40 (5) No handgun shall be delivered to any person unless:

41 (a) Such person possesses and exhibits a firearms purchaser

42 identification card and a valid permit to purchase a handgun (PPH)

43 or a valid New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier embedded with

44 information that the holder is qualified and eligible to receive a

45 handgun and at least seven days have elapsed since the

46 calendar date of the sale;

 

Brackets around

[bhunted 887]

You know there is more to that.... Like qualifications and tracking all your sales, etc. even ammo may be in play... I'm still not for it in any shape or form. IF they made it separate from the DL, only then may I think about it for a minute. Tick tock, minute passes. Still nope!

 

Page 20, starting at line 40:

40 (5) No handgun shall be delivered to any person unless:

41 (a) Such person possesses and exhibits a firearms purchaser

42 identification card and a valid permit to purchase a handgun (PPH)

43 or a valid New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier embedded with

44 information that the holder is qualified and eligible to receive a

45 handgun and at least seven days have elapsed since the

46 calendar date of the sale;

 

Brackets around

 

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Typos courtesy Apple...

[222 3]

Maybe you buy a handgun every year. I don't have that kind of cash. So maybe you like reapplying every 4 years instead of every 1 year. I don't.

Maybe you buy cheap ammo for expensive prices at brick and mortar. I don't have that kind of cash, and local stores don't stock the competition ammo I use, so I buy online.

 

Maybe you don't mind everyone else's life gets much worse, if your specific case gets little better.

[lunker 274]

Maybe you buy a handgun every year. I don't have that kind of cash. So maybe you like reapplying every 4 years instead of every 1 year. I don't.

Maybe you buy cheap ammo for expensive prices at brick and mortar. I don't have that kind of cash, and local stores don't stock the competition ammo I use, so I buy online.

 

Maybe you don't mind everyone else's life gets much worse, if your specific case gets little better.

I haven't seen where the OP dismissed other people's complaints. He simply corrected some misconceptions about the bill. On balance, to me there is more to dislike than like. Some may feel otherwise.

Enough with the accusations and butthurt.

 

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[222 3]

Maybe I don't mind the 50 cal ban, because I don't shoot 50s.

Maybe I don't mind the 10 round mag limit, because I don't have any.

Maybe I don't mind the training requirement, because I already have a certificate.

 

Maybe I don't mind if they ban all semiautomatics, because I mostly shoot bolts.

 

I recall a discussion between Scott Bach and a committee member. I forget which committee, though I believe it may have been the Senate Budget and Appropriations. He described the bill as a few drops of honey in a jar of poison.

 

I, for one, am not ready to gulp that koolaid.

[TheDon 3]

Maybe you buy a handgun every year. I don't have that kind of cash. So maybe you like reapplying every 4 years instead of every 1 year. I don't.

Maybe you buy cheap ammo for expensive prices at brick and mortar. I don't have that kind of cash, and local stores don't stock the competition ammo I use, so I buy online.

 

Maybe you don't mind everyone else's life gets much worse, if your specific case gets little better.

 

Hold on there... I never said anything like that.  I am just trying to figure out what the real world day-to-day differences will be in life post S2723.  The other thread is clogged with hypotheticals about government abuse and disagreements about what is and is not in the bill. 

 

Right now we are in "Place A."  Place A sucks really really bad.  If the bill passes, we will be in "Place B."  Relative to Place A, is Place B a better or worse place?  That is all I am asking.

[wooly bugger 1]

Comparing against status quo... I apply for pistol permits every year.  Renewing every 4 years is an improvement. 

Until everyone else is doing the same thing and the system crashes. Think about it. 1 million gun owners = 250k people applying every year for an FID. And it's not a "renewal." It's a full-fledged reapplication.

[wooly bugger 1]

And, if you forget to update it, or the "instant" 4-year update system is down for the day, then what will you do?  If it lapses, your guns would probably be confiscated. 

 

There isn't anything that our current politicians are interested and doing that doesn't slap down the American Citizen, New Jersey Citizen, etc. in some fashion. 

It's not an "update," and it's certainly not "instant." It's going to be a full-on reapplication. Yes, the kind we now wait 6 months for, except with an extra 250,000 applications each year.

[222 3]

I haven't seen where the OP dismissed other people's complaints. He simply corrected some misconceptions about the bill. On balance, to me there is more to dislike than like. Some may feel otherwise.

Enough with the accusations and butthurt.

 

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I will buy that. There is certainly much misconceptions to correct, which OP has addressed in various replies.

 

But to original assertion , "I actually see S2723 as an improvement to the status quo here in NJ. "

I will concede some people's lives will get better, and he may be one of them.

But he asked for reasons why that perspective may not be widely shared, and far from accusing and that other thing, I answered a request for information.

[TheDon 3]

I will buy that. There is certainly much misconceptions to correct, which OP has addressed in various replies.

 

But to original assertion , "I actually see S2723 as an improvement to the status quo here in NJ. "

I will concede some people's lives will get better, and he may be one of them.

But he asked for reasons why that perspective may not be widely shared, and far from accusing and that other thing, I answered a request for information.

 

I am inquiring for purposes of my education and enlightenment; wanting to broaden my understanding.

You came after me with a box full of butthurt.  Not called for. 

[222 3]

Right now we are in "Place A." Place A sucks really really bad. If the bill passes, we will be in "Place B." Relative to Place A, is Place B a better or worse place? That is all I am asking.

I will concede place B may not really be that bad for some people

 

Scenario A embedded DL gets picked

You walk in to get you driver's license renewed. They say hold on, your DL has a firearm endorsement and pist permit, so you need to reapply for your FID. That may be a 3 to 6 months where you get the 5 personal references notarized, employer notification, and some township detective with stacks of backlog investigates your renewal.

 

Meanwhile your DL expires end of month. So what do you do? Get a DL with no FID endorsement and no pistol permit? With no pistol permit, you can no longer buy handgun ammo for those handguns you own.

 

Scenario B separate photo FID gets picked.

Every 3 years you walk into the township PD and get a renewal application. They mail your employer. You name 5 friends who are asked to attest that you are a good guy, and they have to get it notarized.

Why every 3 years and not 4? Because they are handling so many requests, the wait could be 3 to 6 months, maybe more. If you don't get your new ID before the old one expires, you can't even buy ammo.

Meanwhile you notice less cops on the streets, more crime, and your property taxes are going up. Why? Because the cops are in the office processing 350,000 forms per year, on top of regular volume. They don't have time for criminals: they are too busy processing your paperwork.

[222 3]

I am inquiring for purposes of my education and enlightenment; wanting to broaden my understanding.

You came after me with a box full of butthurt. Not called for.

 

I apologize. I will try to stick more to verifiable arguments and less... that other thing.

[TheDon 3]

I will concede place B may not really be that bad for some people

 

Scenario A embedded DL gets picked

You walk in to get you driver's license renewed. They say hold on, your DL has a firearm endorsement and pist permit, so you need to reapply for your FID. That may be a 3 to 6 months where you get the 5 personal references notarized, employer notification, and some township detective with stacks of backlog investigates your renewal.

 

Meanwhile your DL expires end of month. So what do you do? Get a DL with no FID endorsement and no pistol permit? With no pistol permit, you can no longer buy handgun ammo for those handguns you own.

 

Scenario B separate photo FID gets picked.

Every 3 years you walk into the township PD and get a renewal application. They mail your employer. You name 5 friends who are asked to attest that you are a good guy, and they have to get it notarized.

Why every 3 years and not 4? Because they are handling so many requests, the wait could be 3 to 6 months, maybe more. If you don't get your new ID before the old one expires, you can't even buy ammo.

Meanwhile you notice less cops on the streets, more crime, and your property taxes are going up. Why? Because the cops are in the office processing 350,000 forms per year, on top of regular volume. They don't have time for criminals: they are too busy processing your paperwork.

 

The bill does not specify many implementation details.  It mostly charges the NJSP and NJAG with tasks for defining the implementation details within specified timeframes (10 months, if I recall correctly). 

But, if the implementation details are as you describe, the whole system would be untenable.  Forget crashing, the system could never get off the ground. 

[TheDon 3]

I apologize. I will try to stick more to verifiable arguments and less... that other thing.

Accepted.  No problem.