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mikka1

References for FID application - Reference residence req't?

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Hi everyone,

 

Apologies if my question has already been discussed numerous times here, but I wasn't able to find a clear answer anywhere online.

I read about people applying for FID in NJ listing their friends / former colleagues as references who lived in other locations and that (as far as I understood) has never been an issue.

 

Yesterday I went to my local PD (Bloomfield, NJ) and got instructions that my references MUST live in NJ and must not be related to me. While I perfectly understand the rationale behind the latter one, I didn't really get it why a person living in Manhattan (<15 miles from here) who worked with me for last ~2-3 years is not an acceptable reference while a person from Cape May or Camden county (~100 miles from here) is perfectly fine (if we judge only by distance).

I asked this question and their explanation was quite strange for me: "Because they WILL be contacted". Okay. Got it. What I don't get is what makes it impossible to contact a person in Manhattan, Boston or even NoCal where I studied if they send letters and give calls anyway, but not visit those people in person?

 

So, is it a statewide requirement for references to be NJ residents? Both ways, is there something I can do with it?

I know this might sound like a stupid issue and it probably is for those who grew up, studied and lived for the whole life in NJ. But for a person who moved to NJ rather recently, who works in NYC and studied somewhere really far this is kind of cumbersome. I obviously can ask several of my neighbors who know me somewhat well if they don't mind to be my references, but that's definitely not what I wanted to do in the first place.

 

Appreciate your feedback,

 

Thanks,

Mikka

 

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Just another instance of a township making it up as they go along....I'm in the process of getting another 3 p2p's and my references have already received and returned their letters. both live out of state and I've used both on several occasions without any issues.

Get in touch with NJ2AS and have them put your town on their list.

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Well, this is what I got from the lady in the PD.

#2 is the one that states this requirement...

 

blfdpd1.jpg

 

You need to Contact NJ2AS immediately.  They will fix this.  www.nj2as.org

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Just to update - I wrote to legislation@... (NJ2AS email listed on their website), but no answer yet. Will probably go to my local PD next week and ask to speak to a Detective or whoever handles FID applications as I really want to list 2 of my former colleagues in the FID application and one of them lives in MA, and another one - in NC...

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WOW I think it is illegal for them to make you provide the self stamped envelop also - that is an extra fee.

 

The entire reference thing is a total joke if you read what they ask.  They ask if the person has a criminal record, if they are a drug users and other questions which even if you know them really well you might not know the answers to.  Isn't that what the criminal and mental health background checks are supposed to uncover?  Its an entirely stupid process.

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List the references that you wish to use, regardless of location, and turn in the application. If they give you a hard time tell them that their requirement is in direct contravention of 2C:58-3,f which states, in part: There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card, other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter.

 

The only statutory condition is that your references not be related to you.

 

Good luck.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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The only problem is that the local police chief gets to issue these at his discretion.  He could claim you are of bad character because you don't want to play by the rules.  Yes you could take it to court and eventually, after lots of time and money, win -- but is it worth it?  Only you can answer that.  That is the problem with letting things be non-standard and discretionary.

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No need to take them to court. They are breaking the law. It is not incumbent on you to prosecute the case - that is the job of the NJ AG.

 

You must make them cognizant of the statute. Once that is done, if your references do not receive the reference letters in a timely fashion, you file an Official Misconduct complaint with the AG's office. Trust me - no PD wants to go under the microscope that an Official Misconduct complaint will focus upon them. Inform the PD of your intentions when you show them the statute. You may not make "friend" on their FB page, but you will get your permits.

 

Up to you how far you want to push it.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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Thanks for your input.

To your last statement - ideally I don't want to push it too hard. I'd say it this way - while I think that this is a vitally important right in general to be armed, at this point I'm not ready to get into a serious legal fight with my local law enforcement over this. I don't want any suspicious / derogatory marks on me as I am still a permanent resident, but not a citizen here - maybe I'm overcautious and one is not linked to another one at all, but in the end of the day I'd better pack my stuff and move out of NJ to a more gun-friendly state. Moreover, I'm thinking about moving out for quite some time already because of increasing rent, not a perfect neighboorhood etc - all non-gun related matters...

 

So I'll try it gently :) If it doesn't work the first time - I'll try again. If it doesn't work again - then I'll be seriously thinking if this place is a right place :)

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WOW I think it is illegal for them to make you provide the self stamped envelop also - that is an extra fee.

 

The entire reference thing is a total joke if you read what they ask.  They ask if the person has a criminal record, if they are a drug users and other questions which even if you know them really well you might not know the answers to.  Isn't that what the criminal and mental health background checks are supposed to uncover?  Its an entirely stupid process.

My wife used an AZ reference, no problem.

 

When I get a reference letter I pretty much answer these questions with "I do not know."  I am tempted to add that they are the police, and they should know about any criminal record, but I would not want to mess up someone else's application.

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My wife used an AZ reference, no problem.

 

When I get a reference letter I pretty much answer these questions with "I do not know."  I am tempted to add that they are the police, and they should know about any criminal record, but I would not want to mess up someone else's application.

Really not an issue as it does say to the best of your knowledge, so they really cannot come back at you.  Its just strange that they ask this stuff since it is unlikely you would know if someone did not want you to and it is their job to investigate this stuff.

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I initially had 2 military buddies as my references, one FL and one Utah... I was advised for speedier results I SHOULD use NJ residents but it wasn't a requirement like that.  As previously stated the NJ2AS have a program where they are fighting things just like this!! I know you want to tread lightly and not cause any waves... but without SOME waves, the boat will never move in the right direction... and get this fixed.. but I do understand your reluctance!  Hopefully it all pans out.

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WOW I think it is illegal for them to make you provide the self stamped envelop also - that is an extra fee.

 

The entire reference thing is a total joke if you read what they ask. They ask if the person has a criminal record, if they are a drug users and other questions which even if you know them really well you might not know the answers to. Isn't that what the criminal and mental health background checks are supposed to uncover? Its an entirely stupid process.

NJSP asked me for two envelopes too. It's not a big deal really.

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List the references that you wish to use, regardless of location, and turn in the application. If they give you a hard time tell them that their requirement is in direct contravention of 2C:58-3,f which states, in part: There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card, other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter.

 

The only statutory condition is that your references not be related to you.

 

Good luck.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

I was going to Post The exact same thing and Pizza Bob Beat me to it.

Welcome to the good ole state of New Jersey where the law is only the law "if" the powers that be agree with it.

BTW ...... Anybody know If that Held and moved sweeny bill fix has been challaned in court yet?

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When I went for my FID and initial P2P about 2 years ago, the secretary at Highland Park PD looked at my form and said my references had to live in NJ.  I told her one of them was my boss and the other a co-worker I'd known 10 years.  She went to check with the detectives and came back to say everything was fine.  Three subsequent sets of P2P were processed with out-of-state references.  BTW, everything I've ever done through Highland Park PD was processed in less than 30 days - longest was 28.HPPD is awesome.

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Just a quick update - finally made my way to Bloomfield PD today with an application for FID&P2P with both references out of state. Asked again if it was a statewide requirement - the lady told that it wasn't and generally if I didn't know anyone in the NJ well, I could use out of state references without any issues. So I did.

Generally the whole process was nicer than I expected. Still was warned that it takes at least several months to process it.

Fingerprinting next week. Hopefully will get my FID before Christmas :-)

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And another surprising update - as I wrote above I applied for FID either on Tuesday or Wednesday (can't remember already :-) ) and this weekend one of my references in NC already received a questionnaire from Bloomfield PD.

This is really surprising for me as I have not even went through fingerprinting yet (scheduled for this Wednesday). If PD guys work so fast (and so far it seems they do), I'm just curious what exactly is a bottleneck that makes the whole process lag for 3-4 and even more months...

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The process easily bogs down on the mental health check as they must check with the county of every place of residence you listed. My township also checks with local PD of every town listed as a previous address to see if "you are known" meaning any issue that didn't rise to an arrest.

In my case the detective did his work, but the chief wanted more. That took an extra month as the detective was on vacation when the chief finally got around to looking at my application. It took just over four months while a colleague at work got his FID in under 30 days from a different township. Guess I should still be thankful that it didn't take longer.

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Not exactly related, but a about a year ago is when I last got a pistol permit in Phillipsburg and after 4 months when I was able to pick it up they took me in the back to get a photo. I intially went to one corner and the cheif said "No, that is for mugshots, stand in this corner." I asked him what the difference was and he just gave me a dirty look. I have gotten permits in the past but the last one is the only time that they made me take a picture. Did anyone else have a similar experience?

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Not exactly related, but a about a year ago is when I last got a pistol permit in Phillipsburg and after 4 months when I was able to pick it up they took me in the back to get a photo. I intially went to one corner and the cheif said "No, that is for mugshots, stand in this corner." I asked him what the difference was and he just gave me a dirty look. I have gotten permits in the past but the last one is the only time that they made me take a picture. Did anyone else have a similar experience?

 

If it was a requirement to get your FPID or P2P's it was illegal.

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If it was a requirement to get your FPID or P2P's it was illegal.

That is what I figured. I didn't think to argue about it at the time since I was just happy to pick up my permit. I suppose it is to late now but I do not like the thought of having my mugshot entered into their database since I have never commited a crime but they still have a file on me.

 

Also this was before the Co or Ct events took place, I am not sure how long they have been doing this but I would be curious to hear if this was being done to others.

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No issues with using references in PA. I thought they went to references by email in this new system???

The only reference I can see making sense  even to rabid anti-2A folks is a spouse, and even that is a violation of privacy and 2A.  Nobody else will have enough of a clue. 

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