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Private transfer of handgun - what happens to seller's registration at local PD?

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Hey, guys.  I was having a discussion with a coworker about private transfer of handguns in NJ with a PPP.  As we all know, one copy gets submitted to the NJSP, one to the buyer's PD (if not under NJSP jurisdiction), the buyer keeps one, and the seller keeps one.  Nothing gets submitted to the seller's PD. 

 

Considering that this paperwork is used explicitly for registration by your local PD, what happens to the pre-existing registration at the seller's PD?  They would have no knowledge, unless contacted by NJSP, that he ever sold that handgun.  Obviously he'd have to keep a good track of his own paperwork in case they ever came knockin', but it's definitely possible for duplicate registrations of the same handgun throughout the state. 

 

Similarly, when one moves to a different township and applies for a change of address FID, does the registration paperwork from the previous township get forwarded to the new one?  Obviously, if he/she never applies for an FID, it would still sit at the original location. 

 

I'm just wondering how accurate the municipal registration records can actually be with these caveats.  I think it's great, personally, if their registration system is useless since I feel that it serves no legitimate purpose other than confiscation, but I'm still curious as to how they handle these different situations. 

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Hey, guys.  I was having a discussion with a coworker about private transfer of handguns in NJ with a PPP.  As we all know, one copy gets submitted to the NJSP, one to the buyer's PD (if not under NJSP jurisdiction), the buyer keeps one, and the seller keeps one.  Nothing gets submitted to the seller's PD. 

 

Considering that this paperwork is used explicitly for registration by your local PD, what happens to the pre-existing registration at the seller's PD? Registration is with the state, not the local PD. They would have no knowledge, unless contacted by NJSP, that he ever sold that handgun.  Obviously he'd have to keep a good track of his own paperwork in case they ever came knockin', but it's definitely possible for duplicate registrations of the same handgun throughout the state. 

 

Similarly, when one moves to a different township and applies for a change of address FID, does the registration paperwork from the previous township get forwarded to the new one? The info is forwarded if the new PD requests it. Obviously, if he/she never applies for an FID, it would still sit at the original location. 

 

I'm just wondering how accurate the municipal registration records can actually be with these caveats.  I think it's great, personally, if their registration system is useless since I feel that it serves no legitimate purpose other than confiscation, but I'm still curious as to how they handle these different situations. 

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The Yellow copy of the permit is sent to the local (issuing) PD for record storage in your "file".

 

This does two things - alerts the local PD that if responding to a disturbance at your location, that 

you may have weapons avail. to you on site; and completes the information stream (paper trail) btw.

the NJ State police, local PD & you.

 

When you move, your file just sits there and gathers dust.

When I moved from Manchester to Lacey twp. - I requested my file be sent to Lacey and the Manchester PD

sent it within 30 days of my written request with no issues. I assume they keep some sort of b/u copy or sheet

that shows what was sent to whom & when.

 

As for a private sale - the local PD does not know that the gun was sold, and that yellow copy just sits in your folder

for as long as your folder exists. In a case where they may have reason to look for said gun, they would knock on your

door, and it would be your responsibility to show your paperwork that the gun was legally sold to X on XX date, ect.

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"The NJSP has info on everything you own.  Never fear, they're keeping an eye out..."

 

I understand your point and a good point. However not 'everything'. Eg., out of state purchases, in state long gun transfers, gifts, maybe more.  

 

They may have some / most of the initial transaction paperwork but not the full trail into the end zone.

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"The NJSP has info on everything you own.  Never fear, they're keeping an eye out..."

 

I understand your point and a good point. However not 'everything'. Eg., out of state purchases, in state long gun transfers, gifts, maybe more.  

 

They may have some / most of the initial transaction paperwork but not the full trail into the end zone.

 

This is why I'm a huge advocate for purchasing all long guns out of state or in private transfer.  I know that's not what the FFLs here like to hear, but if Pennsy guys used the same logic and purchased their long guns from NJ FFLs, they'd get plenty of business there.  It would take a significant effort for NJSP to confiscate 4473s from PA FFLs.  Even better, buy long guns out in Wyoming or far, far away.  I'd like to see those guys honor a request from NJSP....

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This is a total non-issue.  The NSA keeps all these records in an electronic database :)

 

As far as the local police having this to look up when they come to your house, I highly doubt that.  Remember that this carbon copy paper system is based on 1960's technology.  When, and if, it ever gets back to the local police I am sure it does go into a file folder and into a filing cabinet and then after a period of time into dead storage.  Does it make it to some electronic system from the local police that a county dispatcher has to show up on the screen in a police car - interesting question.  If so, how many fields do they have on that screen?  Does it just have a check box for "may own gun" or does it actually show each gun that is owned?  I doubt this system even if it exists is at all accurate.

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This is a total non-issue.  The NSA keeps all these records in an electronic database :)

 

As far as the local police having this to look up when they come to your house, I highly doubt that.  Remember that this carbon copy paper system is based on 1960's technology.  When, and if, it ever gets back to the local police I am sure it does go into a file folder and into a filing cabinet and then after a period of time into dead storage.  Does it make it to some electronic system from the local police that a county dispatcher has to show up on the screen in a police car - interesting question.  If so, how many fields do they have on that screen?  Does it just have a check box for "may own gun" or does it actually show each gun that is owned?  I doubt this system even if it exists is at all accurate.

 

At least one person in the know has confirmed that the cops get flagged when they're coming to a house with guns.

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At least one person in the know has confirmed that the cops get flagged when they're coming to a house with guns.

My point was that the flag is probably wrong in many cases as the systems don't play nice with each other.  Let's say you moved to this state with guns, the police have no idea about that.  Let's say you bought one gun and then sold it privately outside your town - the police probably don't know about that either.  Let's say you have long guns, they don't know about that either unless you registered them.  The system even if they have rapid access to it is probably wrong as often as it is right.  Oh wait, there is another problem.  If you are a bad guy that does not follow the law and you buy your guns on the street corner for cash the system does not know about them either :)

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It doesn't matter if the flag is wrong in the sense of EXACTLY what you own, it is more of a 

flag that alerts the LEO that you may own SOMETHING.

 

As for the 1960's carbonless technology - I know, at least at the State level

that the DIR (Data reduction Unit) where the white copy is mailed, takes the information

and loads it into the database. 

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Howard, please understand that I'm not trying to start an argument.  

 

How is it you believe that the police don't have a record of your long guns.  Federal NICS is required to destroy all records within 24 hours.  However in NJ we go thru a state run intermediary that doesn't necessarily need to play by the same rules.

 

C

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Jack I am not arguing the points you are making.  The point I am trying to make is that the system is so flawed that I would imagine even if it works as designed it gives the officers very questionable information and I doubt they take much stock in it.  Since long guns are not in it, there is a high probability they may be walking into one without being made aware.  Since guns that move with people from out of state are not in it they may run into those.  Since it may or may not correctly flag private out of local jurisdiction sales it probably has many of those wrong also.  Further, we all know it does not have information on the guns they need to be most concerned of - the illegal ones possessed by criminals that are the ones most likely to use them on the police.

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Howard, please understand that I'm not trying to start an argument.  

 

How is it you believe that the police don't have a record of your long guns.  Federal NICS is required to destroy all records within 24 hours.  However in NJ we go thru a state run intermediary that doesn't necessarily need to play by the same rules.

 

C

I understand that, no problem.  It might have long guns that are bought in state, but as you know there are many people that legally buy long guns in PA or other states.  My point is that the system probably has many false positives and even more false negatives.  I would not want to bet my life on what this system tells an officer.

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Guys, I think you're overcomplicating the use of registration for police purposes in terms of avoiding a deadly confrontation.  I would assume that they'd simply look at whether you had an FID to make the determination on whether you had anything in the house.  This would account for almost all of the "registered" gun owners in NJ.  While you don't need an FID to get a PPP, I'm sure 99% of those with PPPs already obtained FIDs (or did so concurrently). 

 

My gut feeling is that their registration is aimed at confiscation - whether for a PFA order (restraining order), domestic abuse complaint/threat, natural disaster, or real-life gun-grabbing politics. 

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And not to throw any gas on a fire, but how about all of the guns that are transferred without a PPP, like those that are willed to folks....

 

All of this "The Cops KNOW there's a gun in my house" is Northeast BS and fear mongering.  Go to Free America and most every Cop will tell you there's more that do than don't (have firearms in the dwelling), so what's the big deal?

 

If anything other than presumed firearms ownership were to occur in Free America, the Cops would have to be re-trained, lol!  Here in the PRNJ we worry about Big Brother?  What are you gonna do when the MRAP comes to visit you?  LOL!

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This is a total non-issue.  The NSA keeps all these records in an electronic database :)

 

As far as the local police having this to look up when they come to your house, I highly doubt that.  Remember that this carbon copy paper system is based on 1960's technology.  When, and if, it ever gets back to the local police I am sure it does go into a file folder and into a filing cabinet and then after a period of time into dead storage.  Does it make it to some electronic system from the local police that a county dispatcher has to show up on the screen in a police car - interesting question.  If so, how many fields do they have on that screen?  Does it just have a check box for "may own gun" or does it actually show each gun that is owned?  I doubt this system even if it exists is at all accurate.

 

I'm sure it works as well as healthcare.gov.

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