New Jersey lawmakers seek mandatory training for potential gun owners.

[InFamous 311]

The great thing about forums like this is it lets us view all sides of a certain discussion. Between this thread and ogfarmers does show while something like this bill may look good on the outside, it isn't good at the core of it. I was looking it through a parents eyes, I am not worried about children's safety in my home whether they're mine or someone else's but the safety of them in others homes. When really...it's all just common sense that ALL gun owners should should know. 

 

Just as DeerSlayer stated:

 

 

 

Do they have a bill to make it mandatory that everyone with children take a class to learn how to keep their kitchen cabinet doors secure so kids cant drink draino?

 

You can't fix stupid and viewing these two threads does make me realize it's not that safety training is bad but it shouldn't be up to the Government to further put laws into place that restricts a Constitutional right.

 

I appreciate everyone's input! 

[MeanderingCuban 8]

Thank you, Howard.

 

The problem is that folks mix up a privilege (ie: driver's license) with a right (ie: firearms ownership). To practice a privilege, training is and should be required. To practice a right, no such requirement should be present. The fact that anyone on here would even consider condoning something like this makes me realize how lost we are.

 

http://napavalleyregister.com/news/opinion/mailbag/difference-between-individual-rights-and-privileges/article_07f76ae8-4029-11e3-926c-001a4bcf887a.html

Well stated Chris. Privileges and RIGHTS are two very different things.  I've learned that there is a very definitive and distinct difference between a gun owner an and a supporter of the Constitution and  the Second Amendment.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Wouldn't bet on it. When Jersey decided to require training for boat licenses there was no grandfathering. You had to take the class and pass the test or lose your current boat license.

Not true, they did allow current boat license holders to just take the test without the class initially. There was no total grandfathering though. Everyone had to pass the test, with or without the course.

[bhunted 887]

Not true, they did allow current boat license holders to just take the test without the class initially. There was no total grandfathering though. Everyone had to pass the test, with or without the course.

Thats not what they told me. I was exempt and they told me without a certificate, no go. I raised holy hell and got no where. Scumbag dmv. Always was, always will be.

[silverado427 10,677]

This is just scumbag politicians grandstanding..   Let me see hmmm. A law thats going to make a gun owning person safer... Lets reflect on how some of the existing laws work. ??? NO LAW IN THE WORLD CAN OR WILL FIX STUPID. 

[jackandjill 683]

How about these scumbag politicians make it mandatory for criminals to take a course first.  This wont be first on stupidity level

[DeerSlayer 241]

Thats not what they told me. I was exempt and they told me without a certificate, no go. I raised holy hell and got no where. Scumbag dmv. Always was, always will be.

Pretty sure it depended if you were born before a certain date that they just let you take the test without completing a boating safety course. It didn't effect me. I grew up on Lake Hopatcong had to take the coast guard course to get my license at 14. My first job was at a marina I needed my license for work. At that time (early 90's) once you were 17 you could add the boat endorsement to your license without a safety certificate. Initially they only required the safety certificate for personal watercraft, a few years later it became mandatory for all watercraft. I remember having to dig out my card to renew my boat endorsement at DMV sometime in the early 2000's when the law changed.

 

[ryan_j 0]

The comparison is always being made to a driver license.

 

Well, if we are comparing it to a DL, I want a carry permit if I am required to get training.

 

There is no license required to own a vehicle, only one required to drive it on public roads. 

[PeteF 1,044]

The comparison is always being made to a driver license.

 

Well, if we are comparing it to a DL, I want a carry permit if I am required to get training.

 

There is no license required to own a vehicle, only one required to drive it on public roads. 

A drivers license is not a right.  Owning and carrying a firearm is.  This is a comparison only for people that fall for the premise that Gov is ALLOWED to license a firearm.

[mipafox 438]

How come nothing like this is needed in almost any other state and it's not a problem?

 

Are people that much more stupid in NJ than WV that NJ needs a training course to buy a gun?

 

Actually, that's not a very good analogy. Works with CC, but not with gun ownership. With regard to gun ownership, you have it NOW in NJ and don't require training. Where is the problem NOW in NJ that we have to infringe peoples' rights to solve?

[AlDente67 563]

Not to mention the cost of said training course.  It wouldn't be free, of course.

[jackandjill 683]

In my humble opinion, people tend to think in terms of "me, my loved ones, threats to my family" etc and lose sight of what happened in last 1000, 500, 200, 100 years and what will happen in that timeline in future. 

 

People (including me) also tend to look for solutions in things they can control (like law abiding citizens)  than confronting the realities of what they CANNOT easily control, for e.g criminal with no regard for law, training or 100 other controls already in place.

 

Put them together, we have what we have in NJ when it comes to 2A.

 

Ability to defend self (and community) is not an issue of you, your family, your lifespan but should be seen as an issue for mankind (and every living thing out there in fact).  Similarly, ability to form, control and defend a governing structure that is BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE is an issue for mankind.

 

Regardless of your personal insecurities, what may (or may not happen) to you, your loved ones - ANY infringement of 2A (and freespeech, due process etc) is a threat to mankind for ALL the future to come.

 

Enough said.

[OldCrow 1]

No, you can't fix stupid.  But maybe you can screen for it, and keep the truly hopeless from gaining possession of a tool they can't use responsibly.  How many of you have had a newbie sweep you with loaded weapon?  How many articles have you seen where somebody leaves a loaded gun where their kid can access it and tragedy results?  

 

Would mandatory training help? I don't know.  Maybe it'd prevent a few deaths - probably not many - many stupid people can maintan focus for 4 hours but not a lifetime.    How many is enough to make it worth it?

 

I've become as cynical as all the rest of you and understand that any new restriction or regulation will be used to limit the freedoms of all in this state, the trained and responsible along with the idiots, 

 

So my biggest questions to you all is, if legislation like this isn't an answer, is there one?  Or are the deaths and injuries of innocents that result when people who are too stupid to secure their firearms so their kids can't get them the price we pay for living in a "free" society ("free" being a relative term in PRNJ)?

[Bully 749]

We do all realize that the more freedom we enjoy, the more dangerous things are? We do, right?

 

I'm willing to take my chances.

 

C

[voyager9 3,434]

So my biggest questions to you all is, if legislation like this isn't an answer, is there one? Or are the deaths and injuries of innocents that result when people who are too stupid to secure their firearms so their kids can't get them the price we pay for living in a "free" society ("free" being a relative term in PRNJ)?

I mentioned it on another thread (or maybe this one, can't remember) but I don't have a problem with training but I have a huge problem with this state mandating it.

 

I don't believe this has anything to do with safety to the legislators. It is another avenue to insert barriers and delays.

 

If they were concerned about safety they could accomplish the same goal without the mandate by incentivizing it. Offer to waive the FPID or P2P fee if they can provide proof of training. Offer tax incentives to gun shops to offer training to customers. Etc.

[jackandjill 683]

 

So my biggest questions to you all is, if legislation like this isn't an answer, is there one?  Or are the deaths and injuries of innocents that result when people who are too stupid to secure their firearms so their kids can't get them the price we pay for living in a "free" society ("free" being a relative term in PRNJ)?

The question should be, is NJ a special snowflake ?  In the rest of the country, from the time you step outside and to the time you come back home, you have likely met THOUSANDS of people who are armed with CCW. Nothing bad happens. There is no "deaths and injuries of innocents that result...." . 

 

If you have been to Chicago or Newark, more likely than not, you have met few hundred who CCW illegaly. Think about that. 

 

Someone made comment on this thread that made me fall off my chair. (S)He was worried about apartment neighbor *accidentally* shooting a bullet through the shared wall and training could help such situation. How creative you have to be to come with that stuff

 

In fact, far more "deaths and injuries of innocents..." happen due to simple fall, slips, cars, falling branches, acts of nature, choking on a hot dog, choking on stuff... on and on..

 

People have far too much time on their hands to make this a far bigger issue than it is.

 

P.S,  With all due respect, you almost sound like someone who would be gladly accept 2A restrictions in the name of innocents, children and meaningful solutions.

 

PS2: You are also "baiting" so someone here would say they accept your conclusion as "price" we must pay. Not happening. I WILL NOT accept a lost life as price for 2A freedom. Its the other way around. Having 2A freedom SAVES lives, consequently GIVING IT UP results in someone having to pay that price. Are you willing to pay the price of an innocent life for NOT having 2A right of self defense ?

[ManWithBeard 2]

Medical malpractice has one of the biggest death tolls in the USA, far surpassing firearm deaths numerous times over. Maybe we should have mandatory training for those that work in the healthcare field to prevent the gross amount of deaths.

[10X 3,296]

Medical malpractice has one of the biggest death tolls in the USA, far surpassing firearm deaths numerous times over. Maybe we should have mandatory training for those that work in the healthcare field to prevent the gross amount of deaths.

 

We could call it, I dunno, Med School?

[OldCrow 1]

P.S,  With all due respect, you almost sound like someone who would be gladly accept 2A restrictions in the name of innocents, children and meaningful solutions.

 

 

No, not gladly, and especially not in this state, where a substantial portion of the population and legislature views all guns and gun owners as inherently evil.  I get it - any additional requirement will be used to make gun ownership more difficult.

 

But every time some fumb duck leaves a loaded rifle where his 4-year-old can get a hold of it is a setback for us that encourages that attitude.  It's already against the law to leave a gun where a minor can access it, and there are signs to that effect in every gun shop in the state.  Most guns  come with with locks - I think that's required in NJ, but it still happens.  So is there anything what can we in the gun community do to reduce the number of such incidents?  

 

When I go out with a new shooter, I always tell them the same thing.  "Who cares if you hit the target as long as you have some fun and do it safely."  My wife has no interest in shooting at all, but she knows the three rules.  Is there more than that that we can do?

[jackandjill 683]

Ok, let me bite the bait. There is something we can do. Just like sexed, drivers ed, setup firearms ed starting middle school at no cost to parents. They will learn about firearms, how they work, safe handling, assembly, disassembly etc. They can also learn to put together few pink ar15s and ar10s.

 

Just like football fields, every town could have a firing range for practice, competition shooting and we could have championships.

 

How about that ?

[Bully 749]

I like that plan!

[jackandjill 683]

Once the kiddie program runs for couple years, it could be extended to adult learning program with a certificate to hang on the wall.

 

In fact, local PD could run the range and make money. Community relations will improve. Even the folks who are hung up on "well regulated" could be satisfied.

 

A reasonable person would think that's acceptable to anti2A crowd. I bet antis wont be for the plan. Because they are anything but logical. They dont want anything short of confiscate, confiscate, confiscate.

[raz-0 1,259]

But every time some fumb duck leaves a loaded rifle where his 4-year-old can get a hold of it is a setback for us that encourages that attitude. It's already against the law to leave a gun where a minor can access it, and there are signs to that effect in every gun shop in the state. Most guns come with with locks - I think that's required in NJ, but it still happens. So is there anything what can we in the gun community do to reduce the number of such incidents?

 

 

Ok so you go to training. What will they do about that? Last time I bought a gun I got a notification about the law four times. One of which was a sheet of paper stating I understood that it is against the law to leave a firearm accessible by minors and a line to sign it. Training is going to do what? State it a fifth time?

 

It's a crap argument.

[OldCrow 1]

It's a crap argument.

 

It wasn't intended to be an argument in favor of mandatory training, more just thinking out loud about what other approaches could be tried. 

[mipafox 438]

 

No, you can't fix stupid.  But maybe you can screen for it, and keep the truly hopeless from gaining possession of a tool they can't use responsibly.  How many of you have had a newbie sweep you with loaded weapon?  How many articles have you seen where somebody leaves a loaded gun where their kid can access it and tragedy results?  

 

Would mandatory training help? I don't know.  Maybe it'd prevent a few deaths - probably not many - many stupid people can maintan focus for 4 hours but not a lifetime.    How many is enough to make it worth it?

 

I've become as cynical as all the rest of you and understand that any new restriction or regulation will be used to limit the freedoms of all in this state, the trained and responsible along with the idiots, 

 

So my biggest questions to you all is, if legislation like this isn't an answer, is there one?  Or are the deaths and injuries of innocents that result when people who are too stupid to secure their firearms so their kids can't get them the price we pay for living in a "free" society ("free" being a relative term in PRNJ)?

Answer to what? You anti-gun propaganda?

 

You are looking for an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

In 2001, a leading NJ politician (Governor? Senate Leader? I didn't follow back then) stated on TV that 3500 children were killed per year in firearms accidents, and that's why NJ needed trigger lock laws and storage laws.

 

Of all places, the Liberal/Communist radio station (that simply doesn't agree with Obama or the NY Times because they compete with them), NJ `101.5, took the politician to task.

 

The true number of children killed in firearms accidents, from the most recent data (2000 or 1999 IIRC), was 10. In the entire country of the US of A. 10.

 

And children were defined as age 0-25 by the CDC. And, Yes, this included hunting accidents of adults.

 

Now, at the time, the latest data was from a particularly safe year. Usually 50 to 200 children aged 0 to 25 die each year in firearm accidents, including hunting accidents. But with guns in 50% of homes, more children died of choking on toilet paper than that. More died from having computers fall on them. Which the CDC at the time said were below there threshold for tracking, just like accidental firearms death of children, but they had been directed to record children firearms deaths and reported comparisons in commentary.

 

4000 people drown per year, mostly children, mostly in home pools, and nobody gives a crap.

 

The firearm is the safest home appliance with regard to accidents involving children in any home in the US. Despite the extreme danger the item poses, just like a chainsaw or a kitchen knife, even the stupidest millions of people in our Nation somehow don't have their kids killed in firearms accidents.

 

Know how many were killed last year? Yes you do. Every single one was reported nationally.

 

You have succumbed to anti-gun talking points and you are now doing their bidding by preaching them.

 

Training = good.

 

Liberal Commie state gun owners = bad.

 

Thinking you are going to sell out your freedoms and your buddies in the hope that the gators will eat you last is how you got where you are now. Maybe if you support a national push on 10 round mags they won't take your pinned AR stocks.

[ManWithBeard 2]

"Training" would make very little difference in the real world. If additional mandatory training actually made things better, it would be required for driving to prevent accidents, doctors to prevent medical malpractice, cooking to prevent burns, cuts, and house fires, or at work to prevent workmans comp claims.

 

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink it.

[Albanian 121]

The constitution gives us the right to keep and bear arms. What NJ makes us do is a violation of the constitution. NICS is a violation of the constitution. No more restrictions please thanks.

 

Kids drown more in pools, the freedom to have pools comes with risks. All freedoms do.

[deerpark 83]

Rule no. 1, never trust NJ legislation.

 

Things like training and other "qualifiers" should be encouraged never mandatory ie another hindrance to your right of self defense. 

[mikelets456 78]

No, you can't fix stupid.  But maybe you can screen for it, and keep the truly hopeless from gaining possession of a tool they can't use responsibly.  How many of you have had a newbie sweep you with loaded weapon?  How many articles have you seen where somebody leaves a loaded gun where their kid can access it and tragedy results?  

 

Would mandatory training help? I don't know.  Maybe it'd prevent a few deaths - probably not many - many stupid people can maintan focus for 4 hours but not a lifetime.    How many is enough to make it worth it?

 

I've become as cynical as all the rest of you and understand that any new restriction or regulation will be used to limit the freedoms of all in this state, the trained and responsible along with the idiots, 

 

So my biggest questions to you all is, if legislation like this isn't an answer, is there one?  Or are the deaths and injuries of innocents that result when people who are too stupid to secure their firearms so their kids can't get them the price we pay for living in a "free" society ("free" being a relative term in PRNJ)?

 

 

There is nothing fool proof in our life and with over 100 MILLION legal gun owners the safety record is close to 100%! Why do we continue to support this kind of legislation whenever .001% are screw ups?There are always dummies no matter what, but I'm sick and tired of having to pay for their stupidity....why does .001% always dictate what the other 99.9% of society does? 

 

I believe the culture and safety of gun ownership comes from other owners with a passion introducing the heritage to others....no government mandated program can do a better job that a responsible gun owner, friend or parent. I'm the one who teaches my child to drive, I'm the one who teaches my children about gun safety, I teach them about dangers of knives, etc. How did I learn these things? From other responsible people. No one in my family owned a gun---I was the first. I had no clue when I bought it and a friend took me to the range and explained the do's and don'ts. Then I researched, asked around, took a lesson and taught my wife and kids. Then friends and others. I took the time to explain and show but everyone of them had a deep respect for firearm safety.

 

With a government program, it's like going to school. Many will treat it as  perfunctory directional  advice instead of a valued heritage. Being forced to to train for a RIGHT does not make sense. Would it make sense to take classes before you're allowed to speak freely? Or a class on proper ways to be illegally searched? No---these are rights that we're born with and a right does not require proficiency or proof to be used they are inherent and not granted nor dictated by man. Once a RIGHT is defined and dictated by government it's no longer a right.

[Deezul 0]

These bills come about because there are people somewhere petitioning their lawmakers for them.  Legislators would be more than happy to sit around and do nothing all day.  The problem is our fellow citizens are pushing for this legislation.  Some suburban mom with nothing better to do probably saw something on facebook (after taking a break from spamming me with slot-o-mania invites), or Dr. Phil, about this and started a frothing at the mouth letter writing/call in/fax/smoke signal campaign.  Its either that or MDA or one of the other astroturf organizations are sending around feelers to see what can get done.  

 

No legislator ever had an original thought, they only do anything when there are people watching with deep enough pockets or a loud enough megaphone to get them in trouble.