Almeida update

[jackandjill 683]

bolded........then why are none of us carrying? it is our right. yet none of us do. because we're not being granted permission. if we need permission, then it is not a right, but a privilege. that right was given away by our predecessors.

We dont even exercise the areas where the "permission" is granted - open carry of unloaded long guns all day, everywhere.  The real, honest answer is,  most of us are not prepared to pay the cost. Cost of getting arrested falsely, cost of character assassination, cost of losing job, cost of losing time and even family.  Because we are afraid. To that end, most of us (including me) are not entitled to that right. The day most of us are ready and willing to pay the cost, is the day we will exercise that right.

 

Heck, we cant even properly support fellow Citizen who is putting everything out there for his / her rights.

 

There is an old thread that asks "who here carries regardless". Interesting responses there.

 

Note:  "We" in this context is general "We", not intended towards any individual.  "We" includes me.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

We dont even exercise the areas where the "permission" is granted - open carry of unloaded long guns all day, everywhere.  The real, honest answer is,  most of us are not prepared to pay the cost. Cost of getting arrested falsely, cost of character assassination, cost of losing job, cost of losing time and even family.  Because we are afraid. To that end, most of us (including me) are not entitled to that right. The day most of us are ready and willing to pay the cost, is the day we will exercise that right.

 

Heck, we cant even properly support fellow Citizen who is putting everything out there for his / her rights.

 

There is an old thread that asks "who here carries regardless". Interesting responses there.

 

Note:  "We" in this context is general "We", not intended towards any individual.  "We" includes me.

on that note, i almost always have a firearm in my vehicle. of course, it's secured per transportation laws....but it's there. i carry here at the shop, and at home. here, a couple customers have spotted it when i'd bend over to put the lift under a car. they always ask why. i then have my excuse to explain the absurdity of our laws, which i do calmly and professionally. then i remind them that it's my one of my rights that hasn't been stolen from me yet. most get it. one lady and her husband may be coming shooting with me this summer because of that.

 

 as for the cost....yea. i get arrested, and spend time in jail? my business is gone, as i'm a one man show. my home will follow, 'cause i can't pay for it without my business. so i gotta be careful how/what i do.

[Ramup422 18]

Hello All, I will entertain this thread briefly. I like the debate and I really like the positive comments....Now for Newtonia, not so much but I can understand his frustration. We all are frustrated and rightfully so, but to sit here and be key board warriors does us no good in NJ.

 

We need to attack NJ with multiple plans, with litigation, activism, education, and yes elections.

 

Newtonia seems to believe we need to elect these biased gun bigots out of office and I AGREE! But let me ask you, how has the last several elections worked out for you in NJ? Not to well has it? Maybe the recall effort will work, maybe it wont. Should we place all of our eggs in that one basket?

 

Litigation works most of the time, it is a time consuming process...Lets look at Illinois, how long did that take? 10+ years correct?

What about Palmer v D.C? so far 6 years right?

Richardson V Cali

Peruta v San Diego?

 

I am sure many get my point.

 

Now lets talk about my case briefly. you are right to a certain extent. The appellate court may rule that the Superior Judge was wrong, and yes that will only benefit me unless they address the "Justifiable need" clause that may open doors for future litigation. If they do, its also a win for us because it will open the doors.

 

Is that our/my goal to just win and go away? No it is not. Our goal is to bring it to the SCOTUS if its allowed to get that far.

 

Honestly, I have only a small clue on how Nappen is going to fight this one and yes he wants to challenge the "justifiable need clause" which can only benefit us all in NJ.

 

Will SCOTUS end up hearing Peruta v San Diego, or will it be Palmer v D.C, maybe it could be Almeida v NJ?

 

One fact that we all know is, it WILL NOT BE NEWTONIA v NJ...correct?

 

You see, I've been trying for 2 years now to build up my case, trying to get additional Plaintiffs because I knew that if Drake failed to get Cert, or if Pantano failed to be heard, NJ would be back to the drawing board.

 

NJ has a lot of sheep, key board warriors and A LOT OF NEGATIVE THINKING residents. If we all sit hear and dam someone for trying, and do not jump in the mud, you become part of the problem.

 

We do not have time for that....Join the movement, or move out of our way. I very well may be kicked out of the fight by NJ appellate courts, But than again I MAY NOT.......Will you join me in the fight? Apply, and get in the pipeline.

 

With that said, thank you all that are fighting. Either through public education, activism, electing pro 2A candidate's or working the recall effort.

 

I will continue to keep as many as I can updated, as of now the end goal is to petition SCOTUS if we are allowed to get that far, but the only way in doing so is by getting in the game and following it through till the end.

 

Cordially,

Albert Almeida

[Newtonian 453]

Hello All, I will entertain this thread briefly. I like the debate and I really like the positive comments....Now for Newtonia, not so much but I can understand his frustration. We all are frustrated and rightfully so, but to sit here and be key board warriors does us no good in NJ.

 

We need to attack NJ with multiple plans, with litigation, activism, education, and yes elections.

 

Newtonia seems to believe we need to elect these biased gun bigots out of office and I AGREE! But let me ask you, how has the last several elections worked out for you in NJ? Not to well has it? Maybe the recall effort will work, maybe it wont. Should we place all of our eggs in that one basket?

 

Litigation works most of the time, it is a time consuming process...Lets look at Illinois, how long did that take? 10+ years correct?

What about Palmer v D.C? so far 6 years right?

Richardson V Cali

Peruta v San Diego?

 

I am sure many get my point.

 

Now lets talk about my case briefly. you are right to a certain extent. The appellate court may rule that the Superior Judge was wrong, and yes that will only benefit me unless they address the "Justifiable need" clause that may open doors for future litigation. If they do, its also a win for us because it will open the doors.

 

Is that our/my goal to just win and go away? No it is not. Our goal is to bring it to the SCOTUS if its allowed to get that far.

 

Honestly, I have only a small clue on how Nappen is going to fight this one and yes he wants to challenge the "justifiable need clause" which can only benefit us all in NJ.

 

Will SCOTUS end up hearing Peruta v San Diego, or will it be Palmer v D.C, maybe it could be Almeida v NJ?

 

One fact that we all know is, it WILL NOT BE NEWTONIA v NJ...correct?

 

You see, I've been trying for 2 years now to build up my case, trying to get additional Plaintiffs because I knew that if Drake failed to get Cert, or if Pantano failed to be heard, NJ would be back to the drawing board.

 

NJ has a lot of sheep, key board warriors and A LOT OF NEGATIVE THINKING residents. If we all sit hear and dam someone for trying, and do not jump in the mud, you become part of the problem.

 

We do not have time for that....Join the movement, or move out of our way. I very well may be kicked out of the fight by NJ appellate courts, But than again I MAY NOT.......Will you join me in the fight? Apply, and get in the pipeline.

 

With that said, thank you all that are fighting. Either through public education, activism, electing pro 2A candidate's or working the recall effort.

 

I will continue to keep as many as I can updated, as of now the end goal is to petition SCOTUS if we are allowed to get that far, but the only way in doing so is by getting in the game and following it through till the end.

 

Cordially,

Albert Almeida

Albert,

 

I hope you will continue to update in this thread. My criticisms have nothing to do with you. 

 

Sure court cases may arise from your application but the focus of further appeals would be whether you demonstrated justifiable need within the context of your specific circumstances and how that policy exists in law and practice. That is the problem. Defining JN on the basis of number of trips to unsavory neighborhoods, or whatever criteria you're presenting, strengthens the concept instead of weakening it. It would indeed be miraculous, given the unsavory judicial/legal history of gun cases in NJ, that somewhere out of the blue a judge hearing one of your appeals would have the authority and inclination to order NJ to change its ways. You realize that the state gets to appeal that ruling, all the way up to the Supreme Court which recently declined to hear a NJ 2A case. As has been amply demonstrated we will never win by that route. 

 

There is another issue, also raised in this thread, that they will simply grant you a permit to shut everybody up. Where are we then? 

 

In my opinion the 2AF or 2AS or whoever they are are wasting money on a one-off case that will benefit only you and serve no purpose whatsoever in broadening our rights. You do not have any more of a right to carry a handgun than the people who actually LIVE in the unsavory neighborhoods you frequent. Or occasional visitors. Or people who live in small, safer cities. Or small towns like Newton. Or individuals who live out in the boonies on farms where the crime rate is 0.0000. 

 

Again, my gripe is not against you but against the 2AS.

[carl_g 568]

Albert,

 

I hope you will continue to update in this thread. My criticisms have nothing to do with you. 

 

Sure court cases may arise from your application but the focus of further appeals would be whether you demonstrated justifiable need within the context of your specific circumstances and how that policy exists in law and practice. That is the problem. Defining JN on the basis of number of trips to unsavory neighborhoods, or whatever criteria you're presenting, strengthens the concept instead of weakening it. It would indeed be miraculous, given the unsavory judicial/legal history of gun cases in NJ, that somewhere out of the blue a judge hearing one of your appeals would have the authority and inclination to order NJ to change its ways. You realize that the state gets to appeal that ruling, all the way up to the Supreme Court which recently declined to hear a NJ 2A case. As has been amply demonstrated we will never win by that route. 

 

There is another issue, also raised in this thread, that they will simply grant you a permit to shut everybody up. Where are we then? 

 

In my opinion the 2AF or 2AS or whoever they are are wasting money on a one-off case that will benefit only you and serve no purpose whatsoever in broadening our rights. You do not have any more of a right to carry a handgun than the people who actually LIVE in the unsavory neighborhoods you frequent. Or occasional visitors. Or people who live in small, safer cities. Or small towns like Newton. Or individuals who live out in the boonies on farms where the crime rate is 0.0000. 

 

Again, my gripe is not against you but against the 2AS.

 

You should file for a carry permit then take the state to court..If you want something bad enough you need to work for it not just complain about it. This guy has been put through the ringer in the NJ courts and IMO we should all be thankful that organizations are backing him financially.

[mipafox 438]

 

Hello All, I will entertain this thread briefly. I like the debate and I really like the positive comments....Now for Newtonia, not so much but I can understand his frustration. We all are frustrated and rightfully so, but to sit here and be key board warriors does us no good in NJ.

 

We need to attack NJ with multiple plans, with litigation, activism, education, and yes elections.

 

Newtonia seems to believe we need to elect these biased gun bigots out of office and I AGREE! But let me ask you, how has the last several elections worked out for you in NJ? Not to well has it? Maybe the recall effort will work, maybe it wont. Should we place all of our eggs in that one basket?

 

Litigation works most of the time, it is a time consuming process...Lets look at Illinois, how long did that take? 10+ years correct?

What about Palmer v D.C? so far 6 years right?

Richardson V Cali

Peruta v San Diego?

 

I am sure many get my point.

 

Now lets talk about my case briefly. you are right to a certain extent. The appellate court may rule that the Superior Judge was wrong, and yes that will only benefit me unless they address the "Justifiable need" clause that may open doors for future litigation. If they do, its also a win for us because it will open the doors.

 

Is that our/my goal to just win and go away? No it is not. Our goal is to bring it to the SCOTUS if its allowed to get that far.

 

Honestly, I have only a small clue on how Nappen is going to fight this one and yes he wants to challenge the "justifiable need clause" which can only benefit us all in NJ.

 

Will SCOTUS end up hearing Peruta v San Diego, or will it be Palmer v D.C, maybe it could be Almeida v NJ?

 

One fact that we all know is, it WILL NOT BE NEWTONIA v NJ...correct?

 

You see, I've been trying for 2 years now to build up my case, trying to get additional Plaintiffs because I knew that if Drake failed to get Cert, or if Pantano failed to be heard, NJ would be back to the drawing board.

 

NJ has a lot of sheep, key board warriors and A LOT OF NEGATIVE THINKING residents. If we all sit hear and dam someone for trying, and do not jump in the mud, you become part of the problem.

 

We do not have time for that....Join the movement, or move out of our way. I very well may be kicked out of the fight by NJ appellate courts, But than again I MAY NOT.......Will you join me in the fight? Apply, and get in the pipeline.

 

With that said, thank you all that are fighting. Either through public education, activism, electing pro 2A candidate's or working the recall effort.

 

I will continue to keep as many as I can updated, as of now the end goal is to petition SCOTUS if we are allowed to get that far, but the only way in doing so is by getting in the game and following it through till the end.

 

Cordially,

Albert Almeida

 

 

Having an opinion on the case is not fighting against you or our rights. Even if you don't like it or agree with it.

 

Similarly, believing your case will help improve gun rights in New Jersey does nothing to help your case and it does nothing to support the 2A.

 

Nobody criticized you and nobody is fighting you. People are simply speculating about the wider implications.

[Newtonian 453]

You should file for a carry permit then take the state to court..If you want something bad enough you need to work for it not just complain about it. This guy has been put through the ringer in the NJ courts and IMO we should all be thankful that organizations are backing him financially.

You totally, completely missed my points.

 

I'm not at all unfriendly to the idea of 500 people applying en masse, on the same day at the same time. I would eagerly support such a project through my own participation and financial donation. I would go through the process if it were part of an organized effort. Let's call a meeting! I'll attend. 

 

I would supply as my justifiable need "for all legal purposes" like the do in upstate NY. Or whatever the group decides on. 

 

But for me to blow tens of thousands of dollars in money and time -- hundreds of thousands depending on how far I get -- just to get mentioned in a dozen blogs and eventually to be turned down like everyone else is a complete and total waste. Just as it is a total utter waste for the 2AS to blow its wad one futile carry permit application at a time. 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

Albert,

 

I hope you will continue to update in this thread. My criticisms have nothing to do with you. 

 

Sure court cases may arise from your application but the focus of further appeals would be whether you demonstrated justifiable need within the context of your specific circumstances and how that policy exists in law and practice. That is the problem. Defining JN on the basis of number of trips to unsavory neighborhoods, or whatever criteria you're presenting, strengthens the concept instead of weakening it. It would indeed be miraculous, given the unsavory judicial/legal history of gun cases in NJ, that somewhere out of the blue a judge hearing one of your appeals would have the authority and inclination to order NJ to change its ways. You realize that the state gets to appeal that ruling, all the way up to the Supreme Court which recently declined to hear a NJ 2A case. As has been amply demonstrated we will never win by that route. 

 

There is another issue, also raised in this thread, that they will simply grant you a permit to shut everybody up. Where are we then? 

 

In my opinion the 2AF or 2AS or whoever they are are wasting money on a one-off case that will benefit only you and serve no purpose whatsoever in broadening our rights. You do not have any more of a right to carry a handgun than the people who actually LIVE in the unsavory neighborhoods you frequent. Or occasional visitors. Or people who live in small, safer cities. Or small towns like Newton. Or individuals who live out in the boonies on farms where the crime rate is 0.0000. 

 

Again, my gripe is not against you but against the 2AS.

i think that what may need to happen, is that a bunch of us......like a thousand or more......will need to apply within a very short period of time. of course, we'll all be denied. but then i think we can(should) all be added onto that case, as nj will then have more denials than permits, putting the approval rating into negative numbers.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

You totally, completely missed my points.

 

I'm not at all unfriendly to the idea of 500 people applying en masse, on the same day at the same time. I would eagerly support such a project through my own participation and financial donation. I would go through the process if it were part of an organized effort. Let's call a meeting! I'll attend. 

 

I would supply as my justifiable need "for all legal purposes" like the do in upstate NY. Or whatever the group decides on. 

 

But for me to blow tens of thousands of dollars in money and time -- hundreds of thousands depending on how far I get -- just to get mentioned in a dozen blogs and eventually to be turned down like everyone else is a complete and total waste. Just as it is a total utter waste for the 2AS to blow its wad one futile carry permit application at a time. 

some of us don't have that 10's of thousands of dollars. but i(as mentioned before) will join in if i see an organized effort to file a serious number of carry applications........

[Norseman 2]

Yeah, we know this, so does the state. I was being sarcastic.

 

But if we could find 100,000 people that were not afraid of big bad NJ. That percent would change dramatically and prove that NJ is a no issue state.

 

I've been ready to submit my app with the other 99,999 people to prove NJ wrong.

It baffles me that we don't at least have 10,000 people itching to apply for CCW. Almost every FID holder I talk to says they'll do it. But somehow we can't even get 1,000 signatures on the petition, let alone get 1000 people to commit to applying.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1LtCAP 4,262]

where do we find the applications again? do we need to get them from our local pd, or is there a place to download them?

[PD2K 115]

   

 

Having an opinion on the case is not fighting against you or our rights. Even if you don't like it or agree with it.

 

Similarly, believing your case will help improve gun rights in New Jersey does nothing to help your case and it does nothing to support the 2A.

 

Nobody criticized you and nobody is fighting you. People are simply speculating about the wider implications.

 

Agreed

[maintenanceguy 510]

I need somebody to catch me up.

 

There is apparently a poll.  I'm assuming it's to see how many would apply for carry permits.  I've gone to NJ2AR.org a few times hoping the poll will be there.  That page just directs me to a facebook page that doesn't seem to mention this poll.

 

Can somebody fill me in on the details?

[jackandjill 683]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_cat

 

 

 

Atleast the mice got to the stage of "Council".

[DeerSlayer 241]

where do we find the applications again? do we need to get them from our local pd, or is there a place to download them?

Here ya go.

http://www.njsp.org/info/forms.html#firearms

[Ramup422 18]

The poll was only from Dec. 28th 2014 to January 31 2015. It has now been calculated and removed from the site. But the results were as follows:

 

out of 707 participants (out of a so called million gun owners), 96% wanted to participate and see a mass carry application project coordinated.

 

37% of the same participants were willing to help contribute financially to help get the project up and running.

 

So where are we today?

 

Without funding for the project, it will pretty much not get executed. We reached out to a large 2A organization in NJ that has direct ties to the NRA and they were not interested in the project.

 

Although I still receive many emails from participants willing to go ahead on their own, the problem will be what do you do when it come to the appeals process. Although you can appeal it yourself pro-se and just pay the filling fee, the issue will be bringing it up to the federal courts as a mass class action suit. That cost a lot of money and without the support of financing from a larger organization, it would be pretty much impossible.

 

the project, if it were to go forward, included training, application review, references, notary and qualifications. All to be in uniform so that every application would be the same.

 

We had support from Anthony at GFH that was going to let us use his facility for the seminar and qualification's/training at a HUGE discounted price.

 

I am currently in talks with the new leader of NJ2AS regarding this project, he has expressed interest in seeing this project or a similar scaled down version. But their resources and finance is limited. This is why I was hoping for a larger organization to participate, but that was un-successful.  

[DeerSlayer 241]

The poll was only from Dec. 28th 2014 to January 31 2015. It has now been calculated and removed from the site. But the results were as follows:

 

out of 707 participants (out of a so called million gun owners), 96% wanted to participate and see a mass carry application project coordinated.

 

37% of the same participants were willing to help contribute financially to help get the project up and running.

 

So where are we today?

 

Without funding for the project, it will pretty much not get executed. We reached out to a large 2A organization in NJ that has direct ties to the NRA and they were not interested in the project.

 

Although I still receive many emails from participants willing to go ahead on their own, the problem will be what do you do when it come to the appeals process. Although you can appeal it yourself pro-se and just pay the filling fee, the issue will be bringing it up to the federal courts as a mass class action suit. That cost a lot of money and without the support of financing from a larger organization, it would be pretty much impossible.

 

the project, if it were to go forward, included training, application review, references, notary and qualifications. All to be in uniform so that every application would be the same.

 

We had support from Anthony at GFH that was going to let us use his facility for the seminar and qualification's/training at a HUGE discounted price.

 

I am currently in talks with the new leader of NJ2AS regarding this project, he has expressed interest in seeing this project or a similar scaled down version. But their resources and finance is limited. This is why I was hoping for a larger organization to participate, but that was un-successful.

Yeah you don't need to say it, I'll say it for you. Anjrpc is more interested in their strike force campaign, than NJ law abiding gun owners (their members) having the right to carry. The irony here is when the new State Police proposed amendment changes go into effect, there strike force campaign will have been a huge waste of time & $. I really wish the NJ2AS had the pocketbook of the anjrpc. Scott Bach is a great guy definitely on our side, but I don't feel he is as aggressive a leader as Alexander Rubio is. He is what we need IMO.

 

[maintenanceguy 510]

Albert.  If you have 262 people (37% of the 707 participants) willing to participate and fund their own qualifications and application, go for it now. 

 

Once the applications are in and denied I think you could raise the funds through a gofundme type site.  Once a committment is shown, people will be more likely to donate.   In fact, most of the 2A organizations (NRA, SAF, GOA, etc.) seem to financially support projects after the projects are already underway.   Let's do this.  I'd join in if the door's still open for more participants.

[Norseman 2]

I didn't understand the finance side of it so thank you for explaining that. I also agree with maintenanceguy. Let's just get 300 of us who are committed to this to move on it. Maybe seeing us do this will motivate other 2A supporters that live in NJ to do it again in another wave when they feel left out of the fight.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PD2K 115]

The poll was only from Dec. 28th 2014 to January 31 2015. It has now been calculated and removed from the site. But the results were as follows:

 

out of 707 participants (out of a so called million gun owners), 96% wanted to participate and see a mass carry application project coordinated.

 

37% of the same participants were willing to help contribute financially to help get the project up and running.

 

So where are we today?

 

Without funding for the project, it will pretty much not get executed. We reached out to a large 2A organization in NJ that has direct ties to the NRA and they were not interested in the project.

 

Although I still receive many emails from participants willing to go ahead on their own, the problem will be what do you do when it come to the appeals process. Although you can appeal it yourself pro-se and just pay the filling fee, the issue will be bringing it up to the federal courts as a mass class action suit. That cost a lot of money and without the support of financing from a larger organization, it would be pretty much impossible.

 

the project, if it were to go forward, included training, application review, references, notary and qualifications. All to be in uniform so that every application would be the same.

 

We had support from Anthony at GFH that was going to let us use his facility for the seminar and qualification's/training at a HUGE discounted price.

 

I am currently in talks with the new leader of NJ2AS regarding this project, he has expressed interest in seeing this project or a similar scaled down version. But their resources and finance is limited. This is why I was hoping for a larger organization to participate, but that was un-successful.  

 

I have to agree. It must be filed "en mass" and the applications must be "uniform." That's the only way an appeal and Federal court challenge can be possible.

 

This can only be done with a large 2A organization (NRA, NJ2AS, etc), who can (a) organize and "rally the troops" to apply, and (b) the ability to mount a class action challenge.

[Newtonian 453]

some of us don't have that 10's of thousands of dollars. but i(as mentioned before) will join in if i see an organized effort to file a serious number of carry applications........

Agreed but a sound strategy would not require that kind of outlay:

 

1. 500 people apply on the same day, at the same hour if possible. 

2. Where they ask for justifiable need DO NOT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT TRAVELING TO NEWARK or EMPTYING CASH MACHINES. Don't play into their hands. Put in something like "every-day self defense" or "for all legal purposes." This part needs very deep consideration because it will become the face of this movement.

3. Wait until we're all turned down.

4. In the meantime see if NRA, 2AS, NJ2AS, ANJRPC, etc. will take up our cause. I estimate the odds here as roughly 50-50.

5. Be prepared to kick in some money of your own to keep this going.

 

As I mentioned I will participate but ONLY as part of an organized, concerted, intelligent, well thought-out plan. I'm not interested in twenty guys from these forums vowing that they'll do it, and then just 7 of them following through. You might as well flush your application fee down the toilet. You'll be wasting your time.

 

Another point: We must avoid confrontational language and all mention of 2A or God or James Madison and all that stuff in all publicity related to this strategy. It's all true of course but that crap doesn't work, hasn't worked, will never work in this state. And it makes us look like kooks. If the judges who've ruled against us gave a screw about the Second Amendment or natural rights they would be on our side already. Focus on the facts and current experience with CC in nearby states.

[diamondd817 826]

Agreed but a sound strategy would not require that kind of outlay:

 

1. 500 people apply on the same day, at the same hour if possible.

2. Where they ask for justifiable need DO NOT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT TRAVELING TO NEWARK or EMPTYING CASH MACHINES. Don't play into their hands. Put in something like "every-day self defense" or "for all legal purposes." This part needs very deep consideration because it will become the face of this movement.

3. Wait until we're all turned down.

4. In the meantime see if NRA, 2AS, NJ2AS, ANJRPC, etc. will take up our cause. I estimate the odds here as roughly 50-50.

5. Be prepared to kick in some money of your own to keep this going.

 

As I mentioned I will participate but ONLY as part of an organized, concerted, intelligent, well thought-out plan. I'm not interested in twenty guys from these forums vowing that they'll do it, and then just 7 of them following through. You might as well flush your application fee down the toilet. You'll be wasting your time.

 

Another point: We must avoid confrontational language and all mention of 2A or God or James Madison and all that stuff in all publicity related to this strategy. It's all true of course but that crap doesn't work, hasn't worked, will never work in this state. And it makes us look like kooks. If the judges who've ruled against us gave a screw about the Second Amendment or natural rights they would be on our side already. Focus on the facts and current experience with CC in nearby states.

The 9th circuit ruled that "self defense" has too be accepted to satisfy the "good cause" clause in CA. That's what I would go with.

[jackandjill 683]

Although 96% of 707 interested to apply, lets say only 50% are really interested.  If each of those applicants bring $1000 to the table, thats $350,000.  Would that be enticing for large 2A organizations to be interested in ? 

 

Now, is $1000 per head is too much ?  MOST people spend 10 times more in purchasing firearms that do nothing but sit in the safe. Most also spend few times that money in ammo that they shoot at the range. $700 scopes, $200 mounting equipment, multiple $1000 ARs, multiple $1000 long guns.. $300 yearly in range fees, dollars in contribution to NRA membership etc..... you get the idea.

 

How is finding $1000 to contribute towards CCW effort difficult or too much ?  Imagine that one of your precious firearm is confiscated by the state. That $1000 looks cheap, doesnt it ?

 

If someone is not willing to sell their firearm(s) and bring $1000 to the table, respectfully speaking, they DONT WANT 2A rights.

 

So who is willing to put their money where the mouth is ?

 

 

PS: Good test to see who is really interested is,  arrange a "self funded" dinner event, nothing fancy.. just pizza may be.  There is no upfront investment other than finding a gathering place. May be GFH will let us use the place.   Publicize it on ALL 2A forums (including the PA). See who actually shows up.

[Newtonian 453]

some of us don't have that 10's of thousands of dollars. but i(as mentioned before) will join in if i see an organized effort to file a serious number of carry applications........

The purpose of doing this as a large group is so nobody need put out tens of thousands. I'm forseeing something like this:

 

* some number of people get the paperwork and complete the forms. The more the merrier. We'd need a critical mass, say 300

* ask the various organizations if they'd be interested in taking up our cause

* we'd also need to be prepared to shell out our own money, say $200-$500 (I can see y'all slumping in your chairs)

[Newtonian 453]

Without funding for the project, it will pretty much not get executed. We reached out to a large 2A organization in NJ that has direct ties to the NRA and they were not interested in the project.

 

I am currently in talks with the new leader of NJ2AS regarding this project, he has expressed interest in seeing this project or a similar scaled down version. But their resources and finance is limited. This is why I was hoping for a larger organization to participate, but that was un-successful.  

I was wrong then. Chances were not 50-50, but 0-100. Not a big surprise.

 

Anyone who wants to "scale down" this project has no idea whatsoever what it's about. Representing a class or group of 3000 is not that much more work for them as representing 30. But the statistical power of 3000 is much greater. I assume most of the scut work would be done by volunteers, for example holding meetings, collecting and copying paperwork, tallying results. 

[jackandjill 683]

@Newtonian: Are you volunteering to lead this ? :-)

[bhunted 887]

FYI.... You realize it's not just the PD you must get past correct?

Ex: Passaic County -

- Police Chief accepts app. You go through all the BS paperwork.

- Next step, you set up a court date in Superior Court and appear before the Prosecutor and Judge.

- They call your name and you rise to the microphone and state your need.

- After the Judge and Prosecutor asks you a bunch of questions, they scratch their heads and either say yes or no... Usually no...

- You go home....

It's not a one day process. You'll go through the usual paperwork, wait times, nut forms, etc. However long it takes the court to see you then an answer. That is all. You will 99.9% walk away already knowing what the answer would be. In most cases, no.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jm1827 284]

Just curious, would anything change if a small % did in fact receive their permits?  Perhaps 3% to 5% or maybe even more?  

[bhunted 887]

Just curious, would anything change if a small % did in fact receive their permits? Perhaps 3% to 5% or maybe even more?

Never happen. Maybe years ago, but not now that there is a push for them.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jackandjill 683]

Just curious, would anything change if a small % did in fact receive their permits?  Perhaps 3% to 5% or maybe even more?  

If the application process is managed uniformly in this "experiment", some percentage of people getting the permits could be used as grounds to argue the rejected cases. It may show "arbitrary judgement" on State's part.