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son of sam

Curios and Relics FFL in NJ

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I was reading over the application laws today and found this:

 

"i.Restriction on number of firearms person may purchase. Only one handgun shall be purchased or delivered on each permit and no more than one handgun shall be purchased within any 30-day period, but this limitation shall not apply to:

(1)a federal, State or local law enforcement officer or agency purchasing handguns for use by officers in the actual performance of their law enforcement duties;

(2)a collector of handguns as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) who has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; "

 

I have been under the impression that NJ had no provisions for a C&R permit of any kind. My passion for firearms is much more for the C&R type stuff than it is for modern plastic guns. If I obtain a C&R FFL can I then be able to buy/sell C&R firearms without going through all of the issues with the pistol permits and paying FFL transfer fees etc...? I have considered getting a full blown FFL for this reason but the costs and time involved has kept me from doing so up until now. C&R FFL is cheap and easy. 

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Get it. There are hundreds of C&R Licensees in NJ. Many right here on NJGF. Although you still need PPPs and FPID to acquire all firearms while in NJ, it is good for discounts and such. Some say you can even acquire C&Rs out of state.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

 

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Get it. There are hundreds of C&R Licensees in NJ. Many right here on NJGF. Although you still need PPPs and FPID to acquire all firearms while in NJ, it is good for discounts and such. Some say you can even acquire C&Rs out of state.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

Is the exception for the number of handguns that can be purchased in 30 days but not for the permit? As with many NJ laws and exclusions this opens more questions than it answers IMO. When I read the exclusion I would say that by having a C&R you are excluded from both the permit and the 30-day laws. 

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Is the exception for the number of handguns that can be purchased in 30 days but not for the permit? As with many NJ laws and exclusions this opens more questions than it answers IMO. When I read the exclusion I would say that by having a C&R you are excluded from both the permit and the 30-day laws. 

 

A C&R Holder is exempt from the OGAM. Permits are needed. This has never been challenged. If you want to, buy 2 handguns within 30 days, get charged, fight it, win your case based on NJ Laws, sue the piss out of the state, and be the poster child for the C&R exemption. It will all be for naught, as the state will change the law within 24 hours, and probably make it worse somehow.

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I am a NJ C&R FFL and asked a few FFL's about it but none would honor the exemption. You would have to get your second gun in 30days thru a private sale to even attempt to challenge the law. I suspect NJSP would charge/harass you but then drop the case before it went to court so as not to set a precedent. CC might very well veto any changes that the legislation attempt to make..

 

Perhaps the AG would/could clarify the exemption is only for C&R pistols? The would severely limit the usefulness of the exemption. The way the law reads now a c&r holder is ogam exempt on all pistols.

 

Gun for hire posed my question to Nappen on air re the c&r exemption but he skirted answering why NJ does not have to honor it and said to not get a C&R for other reasons as mentioned in his book.

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You might want to still get it just for the Discounts at Brownells... Also the process was interesting. A very nice older lady from the ATF comes to your home to inspect the residence.... Actually she just sits at your kitchen table for 2 hours reviewing how to keep the bound books in order and reviews other fun facts.

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I am a NJ C&R FFL and asked a few FFL's about it but none would honor the exemption. You would have to get your second gun in 30days thru a private sale to even attempt to challenge the law. I suspect NJSP would charge/harass you but then drop the case before it went to court so as not to set a precedent. CC might very well veto any changes that the legislation attempt to make..

 

Perhaps the AG would/could clarify the exemption is only for C&R pistols? The would severely limit the usefulness of the exemption. The way the law reads now a c&r holder is ogam exempt on all pistols.

 

Gun for hire posed my question to Nappen on air re the c&r exemption but he skirted answering why NJ does not have to honor it and said to not get a C&R for other reasons as mentioned in his book.

It's not so much that FFLs won't honor the C&R exemption, it's that the NJSP does not provide a way to use that exemption. When we do a NICS check, the transferee having a C&R license is not one of the available listed choices for the reason the transaction is exempt. The NJSP and AG are ignoring a section of that law that is in my opinion rather clear.

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You might want to still get it just for the Discounts at Brownells... Also the process was interesting. A very nice older lady from the ATF comes to your home to inspect the residence.... Actually she just sits at your kitchen table for 2 hours reviewing how to keep the bound books in order and reviews other fun facts.

ATF has a number of different inspectors, so who you get is luck of the draw........

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It's not so much that FFLs won't honor the C&R exemption, it's that the NJSP does not provide a way to use that exemption. When we do a NICS check, the transferee having a C&R license is not one of the available listed choices for the reason the transaction is exempt. The NJSP and AG are ignoring a section of that law that is in my opinion rather clear.

That clears up a lot. My LGS gave me the short version without the explanation you gave. I read about all these guys around the country who go on gunbroker or any other gun site and freely purchase C&R guns. TBH I am jealous. Its a PIA to try and collect historical handguns in NJ. Im trying to look at the bright side, at least it keeps money in my wallet. lol

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Gun for hire posed my question to Nappen on air re the c&r exemption but he skirted answering why NJ does not have to honor it and said to not get a C&R for other reasons as mentioned in his book.

I re-read the exemption for C&R and in my opinion (IANAL) the C&R exemption only applies to C&R pistols. While this isn't ideal, it does beg the question why does the NJSP not have a means to recognize an exemption in the law?

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I re-read the exemption for C&R and in my opinion (IANAL) the C&R exemption only applies to C&R pistols.

What gives you the impression if NJ recognized the exemption it would only apply to C&R firearms.? I assume if they can ignore it they could have only allowed it for C&R pistols but as the law itself reads it simply states if you are a collector and "have" a Lic you are exempt, same as Police and Retail dealers.

 

----------------------

(7) A dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person within any 30-day period. This limitation shall not apply to:

(a) a federal, State, or local law enforcement officer or agency purchasing handguns for use by officers in the actual performance of their law enforcement duties;

(b) a collector of handguns as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) who has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; or

© transfers of handguns between licensed retail dealers.

 

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I was going to apply for mine but considering NJ doesn't officially recognize C&R holders and being subject to NJSP and ATF inspection I decided against it.

 

You save a few dollars on parts orders and some dealers might extend a small discount on firearm purchases but you still need a 01 FFL to perform the transfer ($$) and now open yourself up to random inspection...not worth it IMO.

 

The only way around this would be a C&R license and NJ retail firearms license from NJSP which kills the purpose since a C&R is for collecting and the NJ retail license is intended for someone "in the business" ie gunsmith, retail shop, etc.

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A C&R Holder is exempt from the OGAM. Permits are needed. This has never been challenged. If you want to, buy 2 handguns within 30 days, get charged, fight it, win your case based on NJ Laws, sue the piss out of the state, and be the poster child for the C&R exemption. It will all be for naught, as the state will change the law within 24 hours, and probably make it worse somehow.

 

True, but how many FFL's are willing to do this?

 

Also, if you hold a C&R I though you were except from NICS? I was told this by a NJ dealer but since I'm not a C&R never confirmed it.

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True, but how many FFL's are willing to do this?

 

Also, if you hold a C&R I though you were except from NICS? I was told this by a NJ dealer but since I'm not a C&R never confirmed it.

No need to use an NJ Dealer. Buy F2F.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

 

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Don't mean to bump an old topic but has anything changed with this? In other words has it been clarified whether OGAM exception for C&R Holder which is provided in the law is actually the law?

 

The way I read it one should be able to apply for as many PTP as they want and as a C&R Holder purchase as many C&R handguns as they want at any time as long as they are transferred through an FFL in NJ due to Christie's AG ruling.

 

As for out of state purchases would a NJ C&R Holder be able to meet a PA C&R Holder FTF in PA and purchase any C&R Firearm whether it is a longgun or handgun without the need for a FFL?

 

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I know this is an old thread but are there any NJ C&R Holders that can confirm whether or not a NJ resident with a C&R License can travel to PA or any other state that recognizes C&R License and buy as many C&R handguns as they want be it from PA FFL01, FFL03, Gun Show, or Private person and bring them back to NJ?

 

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AFAIK, The PRNJ NJ does not recognize C&R license. A no go in this state!

 

You can get one but you will be held to the same scrutiny as any FFL. Not worth it IMHO!

I understand about the scrutiny, but I'm talking about the law and practice there of.

 

I collect Military Firearms. My pistol collection is far behind that of my rifle collection. If I was able to use C&R out of state it would catch up quickly.

 

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I understand about the scrutiny, but I'm talking about the law and practice there of.

 

I collect Military Firearms. My pistol collection is far behind that of my rifle collection. If I was able to use C&R out of state it would catch up quickly.

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I'm sure you could use a C&R out of state if you can find people willing to sell to you on that license. The problem is going to be if the NJSP catches wind of what you're doing are they going to charge you with being an unlicensed dealer (which has already happened) or some other "crime"? You may very well prevail (and therefore establishing case law for the rest of NJ- thank you for providing that service), but you'll probably spend 50K or so to do it.

 

I understand what you're saying about the OGAM exemption for C&R holders, but the state is refusing to acknowledge that provision exists. We dealers have no way to utilize that exemption when doing a NICS check.

 

My suggestion is to get the permits and file for exemptions, the FIU is granting them readily to collectors. Want 20 handguns for your collection? Buy them and put in for the exemption, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't grant it to you.

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I'm sure you could use a C&R out of state if you can find people willing to sell to you on that license. The problem is going to be if the NJSP catches wind of what you're doing are they going to charge you with being an unlicensed dealer (which has already happened) or some other "crime"? You may very well prevail (and therefore establishing case law for the rest of NJ- thank you for providing that service), but you'll probably spend 50K or so to do it.

 

My suggestion is to get the permits and file for exemptions, the FIU is granting them readily to collectors. Want 20 handguns for your collection? Buy them and put in for the exemption, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't grant it to you.

That's what I am trying to figure out what law it would be violating exactly. What would be the charges? The law clearly makes C&R Holders exempt from OGAM. So it wouldn't be a violation of that.

 

Federal law clearly allows C&R Holders to purchase C&R Firearms without an FFL01. I know PA C&R Holders would not have an issue transferring in PA to another C&R Holder.

 

I agree filing for exemption would be the best option in most cases, but sometimes deals pop up FTF in PA where a C&R License would serve me well. On some of the more rare items I am always worried about shipping. The whole point of the 1968 C&R Licensing was for collectors to further their collecting through interstate commerce and travel.

 

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That's what I am trying to figure out what law it would be violating exactly. What would be the charges? The law clearly makes C&R Holders exempt from OGAM. So it wouldn't be a violation of that.

 

Federal law clearly allows C&R Holders to purchase C&R Firearms without an FFL01. I know PA C&R Holders would not have an issue transferring in PA to another C&R Holder.

 

I agree filing for exemption would be the best option in most cases, but sometimes deals pop up FTF in PA where a C&R License would serve me well. On some of the more rare items I am always worried about shipping. The whole point of the 1968 C&R Licensing was for collectors to further their collecting through interstate commerce and travel.

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

To each his own.  IANAL, but if you think it's legal based on your interpretation of NJ Statutes, then you should totally go for it.  Man up and start doing C&R transfers, because I'm interested in getting one myself but want to see someone else try first.

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