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I believe High Exposure, myself and a few others have warned about Serpa's, despite the outcry from Blackhawk fans. I thought I would pass along some official findings.

 

https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default/files/imported_files/reference/public-information/freedom-of-information-act-foia/reading-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf

 

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I think we talked about this at length before.  Really it comes down to the gun and the skills with it.

 

Plenty of morons shoot themselves or have an ND WITHOUT Serpa as they try to quick draw and go for it.  YES, with some guns like Glocks, the lock is placed right on the trigger, but take a 1911 for instance... there is no way unless you are explicitly trying to.... the serpa lock places your finger on the frame/slide, not trigger guard. 

 

The majority of NDs I have seen at major matches.... that came on the draw.... were not drawn from a Serpa.

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I have 2 serpas from long ago and the 1911 was definitely not near the trigger guard. My m9 however......

 

 

I think the more important reason o gor away from the serpa is there are just better options. I like safari land much better as a retention or "duty" holster. It's much beefier and will stand up to more abuse

 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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Many people focus solely on the ND issue with the SERPA. That's is only a part of the problem I have with this holster. My biggest problem isn't so much the NDs - which is a legit issue with all handguns - but the fact that the SERPAs can lock up badly, trapping the gun in the holster. I have seen if quite few times. Once I had to take a pair of tin snips and cut the gun out of the holster. I have also seen the holster fail at the belt attachment during a gun grab during weapons retention training giving the attacker full control of the gun. Bad juju.

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Many people focus solely on the ND issue with the SERPA. That's is only a part of the problem I have with this holster. My biggest problem isn't so much the NDs - which is a legit issue with all handguns - but the fact that the SERPAs can lock up badly, trapping the gun in the holster. I have seen if quite few times. Once I had to take a pair of tin snips and cut the gun out of the holster. I have also seen the holster fail at the belt attachment during a gun grab during weapons retention training giving the attacker full control of the gun. Bad juju.

 

Good point.... and sometimes easy to forget.

 

I think the majority of the folks focus on the ND side of it... which I completely disagree with and can be overcome with training.  Yes... SERPA will just show and exploit that bad training.... but the lock itself does not cause the ND.

 

The Lockup of the serpa design... I agree with.  Even though I have personally not experienced it.... I have seen it at the range once myself, where a piece of gravel got into the space and caused it to lock up.

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Shane, 

 

I have read most of the report and there is nothing new there... and everything we know....  

 

"By transitioning from pad pressure to tip pressure, the trigger finger flexes or bends. Also, the associated increase in grip pressure causes all of the fingers of the strong hand to flex, further increasing the flex or bend of the trigger finger. When the firearm is finally removed from the holster, this bend in the trigger finger positions the trigger fmger for contact with the trigger or hovering near the trigger. This factor, in conjunction with the shooter's perceived need to quickly complete the draw and engage his or her target, creates a situation that can and has included negligent discharges."

 

Further.... the groups they used for the study... new people.. Page 13.

 

Brand new shooters don't have the training in place... and yes, the Serpa with certain guns puts the finger very close to the trigger. With other holsters, they would draw it differently then place finger.... 

 

However... look at the many people who shoot any type of matches that DO have NDs... it is from trying to shoot too quickly or to cut down that time.  

 

Are there better designs for holsters?  Perhaps, and for certain guns, absolutely safer holster exist... but it does not mean we should be screaming for people to ban the holsters for everyone.  

 

Training training training.

 

But you would figure with as many Serpa holsters as there are out there... people would be killed every day. 

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But I think that's the point. Enough observed issues to warrant it being banned from classes, agencies etc etc. I never used a retention holster in competition. Not sure why you would outside of some crazy aggressive 3 gun perhaps? I think most ND's generally happen on reholstering. At least that was my takeaway from all the ND data collected by Gunsight. Sig's and 1911's lead the pack. But the Serpa brings the afformentioned inherent possibility of the ND on the draw. Sweeney certainly has enough experience and training, yet we see him fall victim to the very thing he says doesn't happen. Look at the negligent shooting of a suspect that brought about the surefire lawsuit. They tried to sue surefire stating that it was their fault because the switch and trigger both can be operated by the trigger finger. But surefire was acutely aware of issues that arise from using your trigger finger to activate anything other than the trigger and their training and use expressly stated not to for the very reason the suspect got shot. Its just bad juju.

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But I think that's the point. Enough observed issues to warrant it being banned from classes, agencies etc etc. I never used a retention holster in competition. Not sure why you would outside of some crazy aggressive 3 gun perhaps? I think most ND's generally happen on reholstering. At least that was my takeaway from all the ND data collected by Gunsight. Sig's and 1911's lead the pack. But the Serpa brings the afformentioned inherent possibility of the ND on the draw. Sweeney certainly has enough experience and training, yet we see him fall victim to the very thing he says doesn't happen. Look at the negligent shooting of a suspect that brought about the surefire lawsuit. They tried to sue surefire stating that it was their fault because the switch and trigger both can be operated by the trigger finger. But surefire was acutely aware of issues that arise from using your trigger finger to activate anything other than the trigger and their training and use expressly stated not to for the very reason the suspect got shot. Its just bad juju.

 

So let's just put up a warning sticker... "Warning, holster may bring out your worst habits.  Let trainers make their own call if they want to ban them etc.

 

As far as ND's.... every ND I have seen in the matches, throughout the years, at all levels, from Local to National, both as a competitor and a range officer... have been on the draw... never on the holster. 

 

If you let your clothing catch the holster... no holster will fix that. 

 

As far as types of guns... with 1911's is due to folks drawing, finger on trigger as they depress the safety. ... and it is not like it takes much to set it off.   but again... training issue..

 

... Unless we put 15lb triggers on every gun...

 

But all that does is HIDE bad habits. 

 

I have a few Serpas... will take a few pics.  Particularly how a Glock and a 1911 sit in them.

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In my opinion..... horrible design.... 

 

Any design that forces the shooter to apply pressure toward the trigger WITH the trigger finger on a draw is asking for disaster....

 

I agree with Shane.... should not have to train to overcome a faulty design, when there are much better options out there...

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Reholster and forget to pull the finger out and decock or forget to put the safety on and reholster with a finger in a bad place, yes, both training issues. But they aren't holster specific errors. I agree with the premise that the Serpa brings about a greater possibility of error due to its design. I do not have a habit of exerting pressure in the trigger guard area. But I could easily see how if you had trouble unlocking it you could exert greater force trying to free it, especially if it was a bad scenario you were dealing with. This logically seems to me to create an inherent risk. Way back in the day before anyone raised these issues I played with one and came to these conclusions. The stuff presented now is just a confirmation of my thoughts on the topic.

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Reholster and forget to pull the finger out and decock or forget to put the safety on and reholster with a finger in a bad place, yes, both training issues. But they aren't holster specific errors. I agree with the premise that the Serpa brings about a greater possibility of error due to its design. I do not have a habit of exerting pressure in the trigger guard area. But I could easily see how if you had trouble unlocking it you could exert greater force trying to free it, especially if it was a bad scenario you were dealing with. This logically seems to me to create an inherent risk. Way back in the day before anyone raised these issues I played with one and came to these conclusions. The stuff presented now is just a confirmation of my thoughts on the topic.

 

Actually, THIS is exactly how it may happen.

 

I knew about the Serpa issues, so when I draw from the Serpa... or any other holster for that matter, my finger disingages the lock with a straight finger... I do not bend my fingertip.

 

IF you do use your fingertip, ie have long fingers and you do bend it... absolutely can see it going to an ND.

 

Seee. conversation gets us places. hehe.

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. Not sure why you would outside of some crazy aggressive 3 gun perhaps?

 

Yes, I want to say more then half of the DQ's I've seen in major 3gun matches have been dropped handguns while running hard or doing other stuff. I'm not even talking about acrobatics here, just holsters without enough retention. More and more people in 3gun have been switching to ALS or GLS holsters, and my draw from a ALS is not actually any slower then from a competition style Bladetech so I use it for everything now.

 

Also Serpa's suck and using new people to study this fact is relevant as "new people" are the ones that buy them, everyone else should know better. On the bright side  I see fewer and fewer serpa's nowdays, I think people are catching on.

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When you can get holsters of much higher overall quality, with a more user friendly and effective retention system, are just as fast in the drawstroke, and can be found at a similar price, I can't understand why anyone would buy or use a SERPA.

 

It boggles my mind. I was issued one. I cut it up and chucked it and bought myself and ALS.

 

Maks, I do not understand the need to defend them.

 

Training is great, I agree. But, unless it is issued and mandatory equipment, why spend time and energy training on a particular drawstroke, so as not to shoot yourself, where there are so many other things to spend time and energy training on - not to mention the failure and jamming issues. I refuse to train specific techniques in order to safely use inferior equipment when I can buy quality gear at a similar price.

 

Why set yourself up for failure? Why settle for inferior gear? Why aspire for mediocre performance?

 

Say there was a holster that required a very specific motion and technique in order to get the gun out smoothly, where if you did not complete the drawstroke perfectly it could add seconds to your drawstroke. Would you buy that holster and spend time training that drawstroke or would you just buy a different holster?

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I think most ND's generally happen on reholstering. At least that was my takeaway from all the ND data collected by Gunsight. Sig's and 1911's lead the pack.

This amazes me. I'd think 1911s would be near the bottom due to their thumb safety.

 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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