Po6 NJ Carry challenge: COUNT I – VIOLATION OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT

[Lambo2936 297]

It's the reason my family came here. Luckily they saw the writing on the wall, and got out before shit went down.

My great grandparents were both killed, IIRC, from my mothers side. Her father was blonde haired with blue eyes and therefore would run around getting food to feed those in hiding. His parents, if i remember correctly, were both shot, though i forget; i should ask my mother about it. I can't recall what happened on my fathers side or my great grandmothers side, though. I believe my fathers mother was born on a train to Russia from Poland, probably also escaping what was happening. Shortly after the creation of Israel they all moved there, though, so i'm an absolute Mutt. 

[DeerSlayer 241]

My great grandparents were both killed, IIRC, from my mothers side. Her father was blonde haired with blue eyes and therefore would run around getting food to feed those in hiding. His parents, if i remember correctly, were both shot, though i forget; i should ask my mother about it. I can't recall what happened on my fathers side or my great grandmothers side, though. I believe my fathers mother was born on a train to Russia from Poland, probably also escaping what was happening. Shortly after the creation of Israel they all moved there, though, so i'm an absolute Mutt.

I'm half Polish on my dad's side, half Italian on my mom's side. They came here between ww1 and ww2 my parents were born here. Europe was a rough place to be for those 30 years or so. I owe it to my ancestors to fight to retain and restore our rights, they came here to provide for me. I'm in it to win it.

[Newtonian 453]

I'm half Polish on my dad's side, half Italian on my mom's side. They came here between ww1 and ww2 my parents were born here. Europe was a rough place to be for those 30 years or so. I owe it to my ancestors to fight to retain and restore our rights, they came here to provide for me. I'm in it to win it.

Europe was also a hell hole immediately after the war. Starvation everywhere. We were sending our relatives in Italy care packages until the early 60s. 

 

Stalin force-marched an entire nation, the Kalmyks, eastward to Siberia, and sent 13 million ethnic Germans, many of whom fought for Russian, the other way. They say 2 million "Volga Germans" died en route to central/western Europe. Unrelated, the partition of India (1947) was the largest force migration in history. MILLIONS of Hindu Pakis were slaughtered by the Religion of Peace. That's why I laugh when the Palestinians would have us believe that their plight -- losing a few thousand olive trees -- was such a big deal. Compared with the rest of the world in 1948 it was a cakewalk. 

 

Another point the Palistinians and Iranians make is that Europe should have established Israel on that continent. Only problem is that Jews returning from hiding or the camps were not exactly given heroes' welcomes. Their homes, if still standing, were occupied by others who refused to budge. 

[Lambo2936 297]

Europe was also a hell hole immediately after the war. Starvation everywhere. We were sending our relatives in Italy care packages until the early 60s. 

 

Stalin force-marched an entire nation, the Kalmyks, eastward to Siberia, and sent 13 million ethnic Germans, many of whom fought for Russian, the other way. They say 2 million "Volga Germans" died en route to central/western Europe. Unrelated, the partition of India (1947) was the largest force migration in history. MILLIONS of Hindu Pakis were slaughtered by the Religion of Peace. That's why I laugh when the Palestinians would have us believe that their plight -- losing a few thousand olive trees -- was such a big deal. Compared with the rest of the world in 1948 it was a cakewalk. 

 

Another point the Palistinians and Iranians make is that Europe should have established Israel on that continent. Only problem is that Jews returning from hiding or the camps were not exactly given heroes' welcomes. Their homes, if still standing, were occupied by others who refused to budge. 

Israel's home has always been the same piece of dirt they claim to be theirs. And even if it wasnt there, they would find an excuse to fight.

Israel has been, and always will be on that same footprint. They'll turn it and the surrounding nations into a radioactive sheet of glass before they 'hand over the keys'.

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

http://www.sdslaw.us/single-post/2016/09/02/Update-in-AlmeidaTumminelli-Justifiable-Need-case

 

 

Update in Almeida/Tumminelli Justifiable Need case

 

September 2, 2016

 

Today we filed a Combined Brief in Response to the Defendants' Motion to Dismiss and Reply to Defendants' Opposition to Plaintiffs' Motion for Preliminary Injunction.  Here is a short portion of the brief:

 

Plaintiffs are entitled to due process and did not receive it because of the Defendants’ ultra vires construction of the justifiable need standard and the foregone conclusion by the Defendants that they would not issue a permit even when Plaintiffs met justifiable need as set forth by the legislature.  Statistics demonstrate that the Defendants’ application is ultra vires.  In 2015, only 637 permits to carry were issued to non-law enforcement.  Contrast this number with 23,004, which is the number of “violent crimes” listed by the New Jersey State Police for 2014.  Assuming these individual victims met justifiable need, as they were involved in violent crime, one would expect New Jersey to have more permits to carry issued.  However, out of those 23,004 individuals, we are left with the proposition that only .027% were issued permits which demonstrates that New Jersey’s justifiable need statute is being improperly applied.  If one took the entire population of New Jersey at 8,899,339 and divided it by the number of permits issued, it equals 0.00007158% of New Jersey residents with a permit to carry a firearm.  This figure demonstrates that New Jersey essentially has a complete ban on permits to carry.

 

This is another good part:

 

Defendant Sussex County

 

Defendant Sussex County is in default.  See Docket #39.  Sussex has refused to participate in this litigation.  As a result, the relief requested as to Sussex should be granted.  See USNile Ltd. Liab. Co. v. StormIPTV, 2:13-CV-00067 JLL, 2014 WL 4637218, at *4 (D.N.J. Sept. 16, 2014) (“The … order granting the preliminary injunction was a foregone conclusion as soon as default was entered because (1) the Court was required to consider the allegations as true upon entry of default, and (2) USNile's prior counsel did not oppose the motion.”)

 

 

You can read the brief here.

 

Special thanks to Ryan Watson and Alan Beck on the brief.

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

Wow at that brief - nice work - once you put the numbers on paper, it is amazing and really will shock people.

 

As been said before, a lot of non gun people think that citizens are allowed to carry with a permit. As we know though, that has always been false.

[voyager9 3,434]

It seems like using the number of CCW issued vs crime is a rather weak ratio. I would think a stronger argument would be CCW/population of NJ vs other states with similar crime numbers. I bet even CA has us beat in that regard.

 

 

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[10X 3,296]

0.00007158 Is correct based on the numbers cited, but you need to multiply that by 100 if you are going to put a % behind it, as was done in the motion.

 

It's still a friggin' small number.

[Newtonian 453]

It seems like using the number of CCW issued vs crime is a rather weak ratio. I would think a stronger argument would be CCW/population of NJ vs other states with similar crime numbers. I bet even CA has us beat in that regard.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Absolutely. We're damned by the low CC rate but blessed and damned by low crime. Blessed because I don't worry going to ShopRite. Last time I was mugged was in 1966. Damned because they'll point to low crime numbers as an excuse to keep things as they are.

 

So what's going on with Po6? Wasn't something supposed to happen on 9/2?

[Lambo2936 297]

I got a new AR on 9/2!
I believe the brief above was what happened on 9/2, though i could be wrong.

 

Absolutely. We're damned by the low CC rate but blessed and damned by low crime. Blessed because I don't worry going to ShopRite. Last time I was mugged was in 1966. Damned because they'll point to low crime numbers as an excuse to keep things as they are.

 

So what's going on with Po6? Wasn't something supposed to happen on 9/2?

[ChrisJM981 924]

Absolutely. We're damned by the low CC rate but blessed and damned by low crime. Blessed because I don't worry going to ShopRite. Last time I was mugged was in 1966. Damned because they'll point to low crime numbers as an excuse to keep things as they are.

 

So what's going on with Po6? Wasn't something supposed to happen on 9/2?

Glad you don't worry going to Shoprite. Saying we have low crime is relative to where you are. We have some of the most dangerous cities in the country in NJ.

[Lambo2936 297]

Glad you don't worry going to Shoprite. Saying we have low crime is relative to where you are. We have some of the most dangerous cities in the country in NJ.

Indeed.

Thats the problem.

Mr. Sweeney may not need to carry where he lives in his mcmansion, but i work in Newark, and that is all the Justifiable Need i could possibly think of. And not ironbound/by the hospital either, its the crappy area...

All who live/work in Trenton, Camden, Newark, Jersey City and surrounding areas have true justifiable need. Elizabeth, Linden isnt much better. I live in Avenel and this is a fairly crappy area as well.

[Newtonian 453]

Glad you don't worry going to Shoprite. Saying we have low crime is relative to where you are. We have some of the most dangerous cities in the country in NJ.

I wouldn't be so glib about this if I lived somewhere else. I'm not talking Newark or Irvington, but even in a relatively safe city like Jersey City. Regardless, your wits are your most valuable defense. If you go to titty parlors and drink beer until 3am and flirt with the Moldavian "dancers" you're asking for it IMO.

[John Willett 70]

Indeed.

Thats the problem.

Mr. Sweeney may not need to carry where he lives in his mcmansion, but i work in Newark, and that is all the Justifiable Need i could possibly think of. And not ironbound/by the hospital either, its the crappy area...

All who live/work in Trenton, Camden, Newark, Jersey City and surrounding areas have true justifiable need. Elizabeth, Linden isnt much better. I live in Avenel and this is a fairly crappy area as well.

 

 

He lives in a nice neighborhood, but his home is pretty modest.  The cars his family drives, on the other hand, looked pretty fancy. 

[PeteF 1,044]

Indeed.

Thats the problem.

Mr. Sweeney may not need to carry where he lives in his mcmansion, but i work in Newark, and that is all the Justifiable Need i could possibly think of. And not ironbound/by the hospital either, its the crappy area...

All who live/work in Trenton, Camden, Newark, Jersey City and surrounding areas have true justifiable need. Elizabeth, Linden isnt much better. I live in Avenel and this is a fairly crappy area as well.

Because nothing bad ever happens in Upscale places.   

 

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2014/09/four_men_indicted_on_murder_charges_in_deadly_carjacking_at_short_hills_mall.html

 

Ever had a fire?  Do you have fire extinguishers and smoke detectors? 

How about airbags?  Ever had them deploy? 

 

I am not taking a shot at you personally,  but just at the "It can't happen here"  mentality.  It can, and does.

[Lambo2936 297]

^Not sure if that is directed at me.
I was being sarcastic. People are robbed and such quite often in East Brunswick. Jersey city mall has a police station and security at entrances and someone managed to get in with an axe and attack employees at the spencers gift shop over there because his girlfriend dumped him (she worked there, but wasnt there at the time IIRC). My S.O. had to go there and cover for them while the employees were getting therapy and crap.. still had a blood stain on the floor from where the manager took an axe to the head.
Shit happens everywhere, but my point was even if we couldn't get rid of 'justifiable need', someone such as myself should certainly qualify even with the justifiable need crap in place. My situation isn't as bad as almeidas, but i manage a property and work in Newark, as well. Fortunately, its commercial but scum still roam the streets.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Absolutely. We're damned by the low CC rate but blessed and damned by low crime. Blessed because I don't worry going to ShopRite. Last time I was mugged was in 1966. Damned because they'll point to low crime numbers as an excuse to keep things as they are.

 

So what's going on with Po6? Wasn't something supposed to happen on 9/2?

Hey what's 25' long and has 3 teeth?

 

The checkout line at Shop rite in Newton lol...

[DeerSlayer 241]

He lives in a nice neighborhood, but his home is pretty modest. The cars his family drives, on the other hand, looked pretty fancy.

Yeah he lives in a typical NJ split level.

[Kevin125 4,772]

Criminals often visit the mid to upscale places to ply their trade. Not always.  Maybe not even the most.  But they know where the pawnable stuff is.  Other than Walmart.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Court opinion released on PO6 justifiable need challenge. Case dismissed. Appeal to follow. Maybe?

 

http://www.sdslaw.us/single-post/2017/02/16/Opinion-in-AlmeidaTumminelli-v-NJ-case

[nolocontendere 22]

Court opinion released on PO6 justifiable need challenge. Case dismissed. Appeal to follow. http://www.sdslaw.us/single-post/2017/02/16/Opinion-in-AlmeidaTumminelli-v-NJ-case

I don't know if there is going to be an appeal yet. We are still reviewing our options.

[DeerSlayer 241]

I don't know if there is going to be an appeal yet. We are still reviewing our options.

It always comes down to the almighty dollar, I get it.

[Fred2 367]

I would think that if the Reciprocity act goes through, that would be a defacto carry permit for anyone that puts in a little effort.

[DeerSlayer 241]

I would think that if the Reciprocity act goes through, that would be a defacto carry permit for anyone that puts in a little effort.

Personally I would prefer a court ruling that Justifiable need is unconstitutional. The state can't argue with that too much.

[John Willett 70]

Personally I would prefer a court ruling that Justifiable need is unconstitutional. The state can't argue with that too much.

 

As a practical matter, I think national reciprocity has a shorter time-frame than a court ruling JN unconstitutional.

 

To your point, if New Jersey is forced to recognize other state's permits, the only responses it has are to eliminate carry altogether (forming the basis for a much cleaner challenge) or try to ban carry in as many specific spaces as possible.  

 

A ruling against JN has a wider array of outcomes.  Most likely, in my opinion, the legislature dreams up some new standard or creates some insane certification requirements.  Least likely, they realize the error of their ways and honor their oaths by respecting our rights. 

 

That's not to say that I think national reciprocity is a done deal, it could certainly fail or be altered so as to not help us at all. 

[DeerSlayer 241]

As a practical matter, I think national reciprocity has a shorter time-frame than a court ruling JN unconstitutional.

 

To your point, if New Jersey is forced to recognize other state's permits, the only responses it has are to eliminate carry altogether (forming the basis for a much cleaner challenge) or try to ban carry in as many specific spaces as possible.

 

A ruling against JN has a wider array of outcomes. Most likely, in my opinion, the legislature dreams up some new standard or creates some insane certification requirements. Least likely, they realize the error of their ways and honor their oaths by respecting our rights.

 

That's not to say that I think national reciprocity is a done deal, it could certainly fail or be altered so as to not help us at all.

If they eliminate carry all together it would be a slam dunk case, to apply the McDonald ruling to a lawsuit, and force them like Illinois was forced into shall issue.

[John Willett 70]

If they eliminate carry all together it would be a slam dunk case, to apply the McDonald ruling to a lawsuit, and force them like Illinois was forced into shall issue.

 

McDonald didn't force Illinois to allow carry, that was Moore vs Madigan.  It was decided at the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, so while its not binding here, a clean ruling against carry would create a true split between the circuits. 

[DeerSlayer 241]

McDonald didn't force Illinois to allow carry, that was Moore vs Madigan. It was decided at the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, so while its not binding here, a clean ruling against carry would create a true split between the circuits.

Forgot about that case, thanks...

[John Willett 70]

Once they get issued, the next guys in line have no credible threats I'm aware of. Just "self defense" That will be the point when the case will continue through the federal courts on appeals, with the next plantiffs to get a ruling on the constitutional credibility of Justifiable need. Because chances are they won't meet the NJ definition. Albert and Michael getting their permits will be the easy part, the hard part will follow. But every movement needs a starting point, and the ball is now rolling... definitely not supposed to act like this never happened before, we know it has in the past. But what this is illustrating in the long term to the federal court is that, even if you do have justifiable need which is now proven and documented by the Alberts case, the state of NJ still doesn't issue, unless you sue the state in federal court. Thus providing proof that NJ denies people that meet their own standards for a permit. Thus their entire system is a sham, and needs to be struck down as a bullshit scheme to keep everyone from obtaining a permit. That's when the court will order a new system be put into place like they did in Illinois with McDonald. That's the angle of this suit, and what makes it different from all the rest before it. Same idea as Drake, different strategies. With the right minds behind Drake, we could have had a decision back when Scalia was still in the Supreme Court. Unfortunately the lawyers behind that case screwed up, and now we have to overcome that hurdle.

 

 

He received his permit because Judge Conforti granted it.  Judge Conforti is a defendant in a federal case.  Albert's permit application was essentially the same as the first, only with more threats.  He has no restrictions.  It is so bad where you live that the Attorney General's office didn't know who actually issued the damn permits.  That is not a joke.  I had a nice long convo with one of them this morning and that very question arose.   Albert's case met New Jersey's justifiable need standard.  What you need to realize is that we have different angles of attack on this standard.  The first was that Albert met it.  That's the easy win.  Now they want to make us go away, so they issue his permit and "mueller" him in two years and don't renew.  The briefs are being written now in response to New Jersey's briefs.  We defaulted Sussex county today because they simply failed to answer/defend the complaint.  We will move forward with a full-on default judgment against Sussex.

 

We will go as far as we can with the court.  Just because Al got his permit doesn't change the fact that he is still in the case.  You may ask how?  I request that you wait until 9/2 to read about it.  It will be worth your wait.

 

 

So what happened guys?

[DeerSlayer 241]

So what happened guys?

No money, no lawsuit continuation.

 

How did your court challenge to justifiable need work out John? You get your case to the Supreme Court yet for your carry permit denial?

 

 

BTW, Al was wondering if you were enjoying pleasuring Bach? Pretty sure he was thinking of sending you a care package, of chap stick and new knee pads.