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Howard

Who make commercial 9mm ammo with the softest primers?

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1. Okay you said it.

2. If I ever suggest anything unsafe please make everyone aware.

3. You said boom booms I didn't.

4.You've worked up to 5.5 lbs only a few more to go. I never said anything about cool. Being cool is apparently a concern of yours. You've been shooting maybe 5-6 years. I've been involved in small arms and reloading in the military, law enforcement, and competition for nearly 50 years. I may not be cool. Just know what I'm doing.

 

BTW, I do know quite a few girls who shoot well. I'm not a sexist.

What was the hotness 30 years ago, isn't the same today. Technology has changed, methods have changed, equipment has changed. Plenty of top tier pro revolver shooters follow the same methods I do, with triggers even lighter than mine.

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What was the hotness 30 years ago, isn't the same today. Technology has changed, methods have changed, equipment has changed. Plenty of top tier pro revolver shooters follow the same methods I do, with triggers even lighter than mine.

Sorry to disappoint you. My technology didn't stop 30 yrs ago. That would be before you were born wouldn't it? I don't know what field you work in but i suppose you have no respect for anyone who was doing it 30 years ago. I'm glad you qualified your statement by saying "plenty" and not "all" top tier revolver shooters. Your "plenty" need to go to uber light trigger pulls and specialized ammo to compete with my "plenty" who use triggers that reliably fire any ammo.

 

If you need the uber light trigger and specialized ammo to compete go ahead. Don't fool yourself into thinking you're ever going to be as good as those guys using guns with triggers that reliably fire any ammo. Until you realize you need to put the effort into it like they did. Being able to skirt the rules doesn't make you more knowledgeable.

 

Why don't you share all this technology that makes ultra light triggers work better than they did 30 years ago? I'd also see how more modern technology makes "pre-stressing" primers a good practice.

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Guys. guys - simmer down. I kind of hate to jump in the middle of this but I know Alec personally and I've always respected the majority of GRIZ's postings. I am also closer in age to GRIZ than I am to Alec, but have nowhere near the experience of either of them.

 

GRIZ - not fair to impugn Alec's ability with a revolver. He shoots thousands and thousands of rounds per year and the speed with which he attained his Grand Master classification in USPSA is a testimony to his abilities. Yes, he is a gamer, but the small edges he affords himself for competition in no way lessen the fundamentals he has ingrained into his ability to shoot quickly & accurately. In order to have the "Grand" adjective appended to his classification , one must win a tier one match, no small accomplishment when you consider he shoots among the elite revolver shooters of our time.

 

Alec - This is a matter of perspective. GRIZ's perspective is one of the defensive use of a handgun, and while he has stated that he has competed, I would assume that said competitions were always approached as training exercises for the real world. If I needed to use a gun defensively, the last thing I'd reach for would be the guns I use in competition. GRIZ's livelihood has often depended on the possible defensive use of firearms, and thus his perspective.

 

As for dangerous practices - there is inherent danger in everything we do, it is often just a matter of balancing the degree and the desired end result. Deep seating primers (it pre-loads the anvil, Howard) is a common practice among competition shooters and offers minimal danger. The Dillon and other reloading press manufacturer's warnings about the use of Federal primers is a result of the litigious society in which we live and corporate "lawyerdom". It's kind of a catch 22 - people buy progressive type presses because they shoot high volumes of ammunition, most likely because they compete. They buy Federal primers for the same reason.

 

So let's stop the sniping and respect each others abilities within their field of endeavor. Alec is truly a spectacular competitive revolver shooter and, if I were a LEO or involved in some other profession that required me to be proficient with a firearm, I would seek out someone with GRIZ's credentials to insure that I remained among the living.

 

Can't we all just get along?

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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Pizza Bob, I'll accept your refereeing on this. There's been enough said here for readers to form their own opinion on who's right and who's wrong.

 

I will speak up if I see someone suggest a hazardous practice in the future though.

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So, in ending howard, the real answer is to run a heavier main spring with a 10 lb trigger, like a real man. Light strikes will get you killed on the streets.

On the streets I will just run like the scared little girl, after all I am not a criminal thus I cannot carry in the People's Republic of New Jermany.

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So in summation, Howard and Alec should learn how to shoot a real gun with a real man's trigger...they should be shooting Glocks :xD:

 

Actually I recently put a new trigger in my Glock; it now has a 2.5lb. pull...it's pretty sweet :beach:

 

In order to have the "Grand" adjective appended to his classification , one must win a tier one match, no small accomplishment when you consider he shoots among the elite revolver shooters of our time.

 

I don't know what a tier one match is, there's no such thing in USPSA.  Is that some lame ICORE thing? ;)   In USPSA you definitely don't have to win a major match to become a GM; there are tons of GMs who have never won a major match :)

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So in summation, Howard and Alec should learn how to shoot a real gun with a real man's trigger...they should be shooting Glocks :xD:

 

Actually I recently put a new trigger in my Glock; it now has a 2.5lb. pull...it's pretty sweet :beach:

 

 

I don't know what a tier one match is, there's no such thing in USPSA.  Is that some lame ICORE thing? ;)   In USPSA you definitely don't have to win a major match to become a GM; there are tons of GMs who have never won a major match :)

 

go play in the sand russell 

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I tell Alec to shoot a real gun, at every chance I get. 

 

However, he may know something about shooting a revolver. Maybe.  http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-detail.php?indx=17286&division=Revolver&guntype=Pistol

 

Although he did get his ass kicked by a lowly master, so screw it, he sucks at this anyway. 

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I don't know what a tier one match is, there's no such thing in USPSA.  Is that some lame ICORE thing? ;)   In USPSA you definitely don't have to win a major match to become a GM; there are tons of GMs who have never won a major match :)

 

Sorry, got my games confused - it's IDPA and it's a Distinguished Master. Of course in USPSA all you have to do is shoot 95% or higher to become a GM.

 

Game is different - point is the same.

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So in summation, Howard and Alec should learn how to shoot a real gun with a real man's trigger...they should be shooting Glocks :xD:

 

Actually I recently put a new trigger in my Glock; it now has a 2.5lb. pull...it's pretty sweet :beach:

 

 

 

I don't know what a tier one match is, there's no such thing in USPSA.  Is that some lame ICORE thing? ;)   In USPSA you definitely don't have to win a major match to become a GM; there are tons of GMs who have never won a major match :)

Russell, I don't think I've made my point clear to some.

 

I see nothing wrong in going to lighter trigger on a striker or SA auto for a comp gun. You are not affecting reliabilty in a Glock going to a lighter trigger generally. If you swap out the trigger connector and safety plunger spring you won't have reliabilty issues IMO. Changing out the striker spring will give a further reduction in trigger pull but can affect reliability. I know of people who changed out all three springs that eventually had problems. They put the std striker spring back in, had a slightly heavier trigger pull, and the reliability issues went away.

 

The trigger pull in a SA auto, a DA/SA auto in the SA mode, or a SA revolver is more dependent on sear engagement than lighter springs.

 

You can make these modifications without hurting reliability. You can have reliable primer ignition using off the shelf ammo. No need for designer ammo for your firearm to shoot.

 

A DA revolver, a SA/DA auto in the DA mode, or a DAO auto rely more on springs. Grant Cunningham, in one of his articles, said you need to balance reliability, trigger return, and trigger pull in a revolver. You can have two but not all three. Cunningham is retired now but many kept him in business for years by sending their revolvers to him. He would lighten triggers but more importantly smooth them out. Smooth is much more important than light. Revolvers would leave his shop with 7-8 lb triggers. IIRC he never guaranteed a very light trigger. He would make it very smooth.

 

Commercial ammo or ammo loaded on a progressive is primed with the primer a certain depth below the case head. Depth of primer pockets varies that's why you see a variance of acceptable depth below the case head.

 

Fully seating (or deep seating as Pizza Bob calls it) primers with a hand primer is relatively safe on empty cases. You stand almost no chance of injury unless you hold the brass up to your eye. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Seating primers deeper on loaded ammo is not safe no matter how many times you've gotten away with doing so. The velocity of the bullet would be similar to that resulting from ammo cooking off from heat. No where near what one gets from firing it normally but quite capable of causing injury to some degree. I am personally aware of several eye injuries and at least one eye lost during recovery efforts at the WTC after 9/11 from ammo cooking off. The Customs Service had a range at 6 WTC that was used by them and several other agencies.

 

Reliabilty is paramount in a SD gun. Same in a comp gun IMO unless you want to spend time checking for squibs.

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Russell, I don't think I've made my point clear to some.

You're taking me way too seriously.  I was just messing around with Howard and Alec...but yeah they should be shooting Glocks ;)

 

And we're all talking about competition guns here.  With Glocks I can go down to a 4.5lb. striker spring with the stock striker or a 4lb. spring with an extended striker and set off all primers I've tried...I use CCI and S&B because I'm way too cheap to buy Federal.  Yeah my carry guns (yes we can carry here :p) have all stock internals.

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