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Mrs. Peel

Florida Father Accidentally Kills Son at Range...

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Link: http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/04/us/florida-father-shoots-son/index.html

 

My 2 cents (3 thoughts) on this:

 

1) The heartbreak for that dad and entire family... I cannot even fathom. Just awful. Dark days ahead for them.

2) Horrific as it is... as a beginner, I guess any of these stories should also stand as stark (though horrific) safety lessons as well. So, what was done wrong here? Finger on the trigger, right? Not pointed downrange? And maybe shirt with a loose collar factored in as well? Am I missing anything obvious?

3) Note the coverage - it's the lead story AND they have it juxtaposed alongside OTHER tragic gun stories (even resurrecting the girl who killed her instructor with an uzi many, many months ago). If I was a betting woman, I'd say expect to see this story prominently positioned and covered extensively for at least a week. (Meanwhile, not a peep about any deaths in Chicago, Baltimore, etc., etc.) Such manipulation. The press really shames itself these days.

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This infuriates me.

 

What was done wrong here?

 

This is a software problem - a complete fail in this father's mindset. Hot brass down your shirt does not mean you can jump around like a fool and point your gun at people. The minor pain of being burned by hot brass does not mean you can temporarily set aside basic firearms safety rules.

 

I have had hot brass down my shirt many times. I have seen team mates with hot brass down their shirts plenty of times. When you train for CQB it happens often - 4 guys shooting within feet of each other (sometimes inches), yeah you get hit with hot brass. Rolls down your neck, under your armor, and sits there cooking. So what? It's hot. Big deal. What I have not seen is any of my teammates (myself included) not finish their string of fire appropriately, safe their weapon, wait for the end of the drill, then calmly and safely, remove the brass. You don't start flailing at brass with a gun in your hands. That is total clownshoes.

 

This guys says he keeps guns in the house for home protection and he couldn't take some brass down the neck. What would he do if he was shot defending his home? :facepalm:

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I've had hot brass burn my forearm (had a 5.56 brass shaped welt for a few months).... I've had a hot brass piece stuck at my TEMPLE (caught on the side of my glasses)....  I was still able to safely point my guns downrange without sweeping anyone and take care of it.

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At least the father owned up to his mistake and admitted it was him and not some firearm malfunction.
The odds of a ricochet off the ceiling and hitting his son is crazy, i would think. I'm glad, for this reason, that Range 14 doesn't have walls in between booths. Downside is, we were getting pelted by hot brass when some kid was shooting his AK 2-3 tables down, which is quite a distance. I had the sense to put down my firearm and step back until he finished dumping his mags, though.. i didn't freak out and shoot my range buddy.

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I've had hot brass burn my forearm (had a 5.56 brass shaped welt for a few months).... I've had a hot brass piece stuck at my TEMPLE (caught on the side of my glasses)....  I was still able to safely point my guns downrange without sweeping anyone and take care of it.

Had something similar happen a few times with the same firearm when i shot for the first time at Sunset hills in PA. I wasn't stupid, though, and put down the firearm and cleared it from my body.

-As im watching this, colbert is bashing trump for saying he wants to get rid of school gun free zones, and then in an interview elaborating that he would want armed teachers, not joe shmoe a student going to school with a gun, but that teachers should make a living wage (They make as much if not more than PO's where i grew up!) Why is that so outrageous or funny? Liberals confuse me.

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So, if I'm reading this right, he reached behind his back WITH THE GUN IN HIS HAND AND PULLED THE TRIGGER by accident.

 

This guy sounds like a tragedy waiting to happen. I feel for the family but, at least he didn't kill some one else's kid in next lane.

 

I think most people (who shoot) have experienced hot brass down the shirt. I've seen women catch brass in their cleavage and calmly put their gun down and fish it out.

 

The fact that he reached behind his back with the gun in his hand tells me that he is probably not the safest shooter in the first place. Had he not discharged his weapon he probably wouldn't have even given his actions a second thought.

 

Honestly, with all the dumb/unsafe shit I've seen at ranges and on youtube, I'm surprised these things don't happen more.

 

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This infuriates me.

 

What was done wrong here?

 

This is a software problem - a complete fail in this father's mindset. Hot brass down your shirt does not mean you can jump around like a fool and point your gun at people. The minor pain of being burned by hot brass does not mean you can temporarily set aside basic firearms safety rules.

 

I have had hot brass down my shirt many times. I have seen team mates with hot brass down their shirts plenty of times. When you train for CQB it happens often - 4 guys shooting within feet of each other (sometimes inches), yeah you get hit with hot brass. Rolls down your neck, under your armor, and sits there cooking. So what? It's hot. Big deal. What I have not seen is any of my teammates (myself included) not finish their string of fire appropriately, safe their weapon, wait for the end of the drill, then calmly and safely, remove the brass. You don't start flailing at brass with a gun in your hands. That is total clownshoes.

 

This guys says he keeps guns in the house for home protection and he couldn't take some brass down the neck. What would he do if he was shot defending his home? :facepalm:

 

"CQB"???

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Im curious as to what the hell kinda roof they had that the bullet ricocheted right off and killed the son. Range 14 has a tin/steel roof, so i'd imagine unless you hit the beam directly it'd punch through?

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This infuriates me.

 

What was done wrong here?

 

This is a software problem - a complete fail in this father's mindset. Hot brass down your shirt does not mean you can jump around like a fool and point your gun at people. The minor pain of being burned by hot brass does not mean you can temporarily set aside basic firearms safety rules.

 

I have had hot brass down my shirt many times. I have seen team mates with hot brass down their shirts plenty of times. When you train for CQB it happens often - 4 guys shooting within feet of each other (sometimes inches), yeah you get hit with hot brass. Rolls down your neck, under your armor, and sits there cooking. So what? It's hot. Big deal. What I have not seen is any of my teammates (myself included) not finish their string of fire appropriately, safe their weapon, wait for the end of the drill, then calmly and safely, remove the brass. You don't start flailing at brass with a gun in your hands. That is total clownshoes.

 

This guys says he keeps guns in the house for home protection and he couldn't take some brass down the neck. What would he do if he was shot defending his home? :facepalm:

 

Well said.

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Something everyone forgets while assessing blame is that this was an ACCIDENT. You didn't read about the kid who drowned in his wading pool the other day or the guy who fell off the ladder while changing a light bulb did you? We don't know how hot the shell was or his sensitivity to heat. It happened in less than a second. His hand probably jerked around reflexively. Reflexes are beyond our control. 

 

Don't say it could never happen to you because you have "close combat training" or any other training. If you believe people should have guns -- and especially that they can own and shoot them with no training -- you have to accept a certain level of risk. The world is not perfect.

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I've had hot brass burn my forearm (had a 5.56 brass shaped welt for a few months).... I've had a hot brass piece stuck at my TEMPLE (caught on the side of my glasses)....  I was still able to safely point my guns downrange without sweeping anyone and take care of it.

I had the same exact thing happen a few weeks ago. Brass was flying from my gun, sometimes bouncing off my the wall and then back off my head, no big deal. Then after one shot I felt the burning sensation and it was getting worse, the brass landed right between my glasses and my head and got stuck there. I put my gun down on the bench, removed my glasses, and the brass was stuck to my temple! Removed it, picked the gun up can continued shooting. It happens.

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Something everyone forgets while assessing blame is that this was an ACCIDENT. You didn't read about the kid who drowned in his wading pool the other day or the guy who fell off the ladder while changing a light bulb did you? We don't know how hot the shell was or his sensitivity to heat. It happened in less than a second. His hand probably jerked around reflexively. Reflexes are beyond our control.

 

Don't say it could never happen to you because you have "close combat training" or any other training. If you believe people should have guns -- and especially that they can own and shoot them with no training -- you have to accept a certain level of risk. The world is not perfect.

Yes, I know it was an accident. I am sure he didn't mean to shoot his son.

 

However, most accidents are preventable - this one included. It has nothing to do with CQB training. It is a mindset issue.

 

You don't wave a gun around. I don't care what else is going on, you don't do it. Put the gun down or holster it - you don't flail around with a gun in your hand because something hurts a bit.

 

His particular sensitivity to heat? Give me a break. It was a price of brass - we have all had it happen. It isn't that hot and it cools quickly. I have seen teenage girls in carbine classes react safely and appropriately to this.

 

Reflexes are not beyond our control. We control our reflexes every day.

 

If you believe people should own guns and shoot them, then people have to accept a great amount of responsibility. One of those responsibilities is adhering to the tenets of basic firearms safety no matter what else is happening around you. You don't wave a gun around at a range because a price of brass is burning you.

 

This is tragic and my heart breaks for this family but, this father's primary responsibility that day at the range was to bring himself and his son home safely after a day of shooting. He failed.

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Yes, I know it was an accident. I am sure he didn't mean to shoot his son.

 

However, most accidents are preventable - this one included. It has nothing to do with CQB training. It is a mindset issue.

 

You don't wave a gun around. I don't care what else is going on, you don't do it. Put the gun down or holster it - you don't flail around with a gun in your hand because something hurts a bit.

 

His particular sensitivity to heat? Give me a break. It was a price of brass - we have all had it happen. It isn't that hot and it cools quickly. I have seen teenage girls in carbine classes react safely and appropriately to this.

 

Reflexes are not beyond our control. We control our reflexes every day.

 

If you believe people should own guns and shoot them, then people have to accept a great amount of responsibility. One of those responsibilities is adhering to the tenets of basic firearms safety no matter what else is happening around you. You don't wave a gun around at a range because a price of brass is burning you.

 

This is tragic and my heart breaks for this family but, this father's primary responsibility that day at the range was to bring himself and his son home safely after a day of shooting. He failed.

You're super-human and I applaud you for it. Nothing bad has ever happened to you because you don't allow it. You're trained and disciplined.

 

Your cars all veer away from potential crashes, you're never surprised by the instantaneous smell of metal burning your flesh ("Why it's happened to me 100 times and I've never shot anyone"), your knives never slip, you've never hammered your finger or spilled beer on the rug, you inspect your home's electrical wiring every 30 days, and the only thing that hurts after you fall is the concrete.

 

That's why, being perfectly in control of every twitch your body ever makes, you don't understand that while nobody dies 99.999% of the time a hot shell goes down someone's shirt, one time in 100,000 it happens. It doesn't happen when your gun is on the bench, out of battery, out of ammo; when it's accidentally pointed in a non-lethal direction, when you immediately take your finger off the trigger, etc. In other words you're lucky. Do you train by having people dump hot brass down your shirt? Having somebody stick a hair pin into your kidney?

 

Note this is not the same as deliberately violating safety rules. This was obviously an involuntary act.

 

EVERYBODY makes mistakes. The Intergalactic Seven Gun Champion makes mistakes. If you make one while reading the newspaper nothing bad happens. If you make one while holding a gun that's ready to fire there's a remote possibility that something bad will happen. This time it did.

 

 

Condemning the father with the obligatory "I feel bad for the family" is the flip side of blaming guns. The main problem with gun-banners is they fail to comprehend the simple facts of statistics and risk. We should know better. 

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The first time I took my wife shooting, a hot casing fell down her beautiful, luscious cleavage while she was in the middle of a 15 round magazine. She shrieked, but she also took her finger off the trigger, kept the pistol pointed down range, and yelled for me to come take it so that she could grab the casing. I would've preferred to fish for the casing instead, but wasn't going to argue with her. This was her first time shooting. She handled it the way this father should've handled it. 

 

Having said that, I can't even begin to imagine the pain the father and family must be going through. I would never wish something like this on my worst enemy, and pray that the Good Lord keeps me focused and safe every time I handle a gun.

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This is tragic and my heart breaks for this family but, this father's primary responsibility that day at the range was to bring himself and his son home safely after a day of shooting. He failed.

All the statements I've read from the father make me think his thoughts mirror your own. He admits it was all on him.

 

 

 

 

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You're super-human and I applaud you for it. Nothing bad has ever happened to you because you don't allow it. You're trained and disciplined.

 

Your cars all veer away from potential crashes, you're never surprised by the instantaneous smell of metal burning your flesh ("Why it's happened to me 100 times and I've never shot anyone"), your knives never slip, you've never hammered your finger or spilled beer on the rug, you inspect your home's electrical wiring every 30 days, and the only thing that hurts after you fall is the concrete.

 

That's why, being perfectly in control of every twitch your body ever makes, you don't understand that while nobody dies 99.999% of the time a hot shell goes down someone's shirt, one time in 100,000 it happens. It doesn't happen when your gun is on the bench, out of battery, out of ammo; when it's accidentally pointed in a non-lethal direction, when you immediately take your finger off the trigger, etc. In other words you're lucky. Do you train by having people dump hot brass down your shirt? Having somebody stick a hair pin into your kidney?

 

Note this is not the same as deliberately violating safety rules. This was obviously an involuntary act.

 

EVERYBODY makes mistakes. The Intergalactic Seven Gun Champion makes mistakes. If you make one while reading the newspaper nothing bad happens. If you make one while holding a gun that's ready to fire there's a remote possibility that something bad will happen. This time it did.

 

 

Condemning the father with the obligatory "I feel bad for the family" is the flip side of blaming guns. The main problem with gun-banners is they fail to comprehend the simple facts of statistics and risk. We should know better.

Stop. Seriously. :facepalm:

 

Luck has nothing to do with it. Luck is not a course of action. Luck is not a tactic. Luck is not a firearm safety rule. Luck is completely out of anyone's control. If you rely on luck, or the "Good Lord", to keep you safe at the range you should probably rethink that - and I know I won't be going to the range with you.

 

If your finger is off the trigger, an involuntary flinch, a startle reaction, postural disturbance, sympathetic movement, etc... won't result in you shooting your son. That's not luck. That's a learned skill - the first skill we all learned before touching a gun - keep your booger hook off the bang switch until you are ready and justified to shoot.

 

Don't be a fool. Of course I don't have people dump hot brass on me or stick me with a pin while training. What I do is treat training like an adult, understand that I may get hit with hot brass, and know that if I do I can't act like a 6 year old a wave my gun around while trying to get it off of me because it burns. If this guy couldn't take brass, what would he do if he got shot?

 

I'll say it again - PROPER MINDSET when handling firearms is key. Whether shooting for training, fun, education, relaxation, or in the real world you have to have your head screwed on correctly before picking up a gun.

 

There is nothing superhuman about it behaving like a grown adult at the range and being safe.

 

Sounds like everyone that has posted in this thread has had a similar incident where they were burned by hot brass. None of them had an ND, none of them shot a family member. This is a clue.

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Stop. Seriously. :facepalm:

Luck has nothing to do with it. Luck is not a course of action. Luck is not a tactic. Luck is not a firearm safety rule. Luck is completely out of your control. If you rely on luck, or "Good Lord" to keep you safe at the range you should probably rethink that - and I know I won't be going to the range with you.

If your finger is off the trigger, an involuntary flinch won't result in you shooting your son. That's not luck. That's a learned skill - the first skill we all learned before touching a gun.

Don't be a fool. Of course I don't have people dump hot brass on me or stick me with a pin while training. What I do is treat training like an adult and understand that I may get get with hot brass and if I do I can't act like a 6 year old a wavep my gun around while trying to get it off of me. If this guy couldn't take brass, what would he do if he got shot?

I'll say it again - PROPER MINDSET when handling firearms is key. Whether shooting for training, fun, education, relaxation, or in the real world you have to have your head screwed on correctly before picking up a gun.

There is nothing superhuman about it behaving like a grown adult at the range and being safe.

Sounds like everyone that has posted in this thread has had a similar incident where they were burned by hot brass. None of them had an ND, none of them shot a family member. This is a clue.

Hey now, the Good Lord can't help you if you're a complete fool, but He sure can as long as you do your part. ;)

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Sounds like everyone that has posted in this thread has had a similar incident where they were burned by hot brass. None of them had an ND, none of them shot a family member. This is a clue.

 

Any decent bullseye shooter can fire all 10's to finish out a string of timed or rapid fire with a hot casing resting in the crook of their elbow...because that's happened to us all a time or three.  No reason to lose focus.  

 

Fortunately, pistol cases don't have much thermal mass.  They cool fast.   

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A tragic accident. Regardless of assigning blame, even the Dad says it wasn't the firearm that did the killing, acknowledging his responsibility. After all is said and done, at this point, that's as much as anyone can ask of him. 

 

I doubt he's going to sleep well for a long time. No need to further berate the poor guy.

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If your finger is off the trigger, an involuntary flinch, a startle reaction, postural disturbance, sympathetic movement, etc... won't result in you shooting your son. That's not luck. That's a learned skill - the first skill we all learned before touching a gun - keep your booger hook off the bang switch until you are ready and justified to shoot.

 

Don't be a fool.

There is nothing superhuman about it behaving like a grown adult at the range and being safe.

 

Sounds like everyone that has posted in this thread has had a similar incident where they were burned by hot brass. None of them had an ND, none of them shot a family member. This is a clue.

And if your finger happens to be on the trigger and you are ready to shoot or quarter-way through your pull when you're startled by something? What happens then? 99.9% nothing. But do you admit an accident is much more likely to occur at this point than if your finger is off the trigger or for chrissake if the gun is on the table? Training aside, have we not now entered the realm of "luck" or more precisely coincidence -- two things happening at the same time? 

 

Being a "grown adult" has nothing to do with it. Accept that this was an accident and leave the hapless bastard alone. And stop preaching about your superiority, invulnerability, unsurpassed self-control, and scientifically-proven heat capacities of various shells. I would respect your posts more if you offered to spend 30 minutes going through specific drills with anyone who was interested, for free, than bragging about how this could never happen to you. 

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Good luck is when you do everything wrong and it all works out.

 

Bad luck is when you do everything right and it goes to shit.

 

This incident doesn't fall into either one of those categories.

 

Coincidence? No. Not that either.

 

You can call it whatever you want to make you feel better, but in the end this was gross carelessness that ended in horrifying but accidental tragedy. Like most accidents though, this was a 100% preventable incident.

 

This wasn't an immediate startle response, a twitch, a flinch, or involuntary hand convulsion in response to unexpected stimuli at the time he pressed the trigger. He wasn't aiming at his target when this happened (unless his target was his kid or the roof of the range) so his finger should have been off the trigger. Any startle event should have merely caused a harmless squeeze of his hand and a press/curl of the trigger finger against the frame of the gun with no loud noise following.

 

I'm not bragging about this not happening to me - it's nothing to brag about. This is the very first responsibility we accept when we pick up a firearm - to be safe. If I thought for a second that this would happen to me, I wouldn't go shooting. I wouldn't bring anyone else shooting. I definitely wouldn't bring my son to the range. I have confidence that when I go to the range, shoot in a comp, participate in training, or teach a class that I will act in a safe manner and not shoot someone. If you can't say that you will go to the range today and not shoot someone, please stay home. It has nothing to do with my - or anyone else here who has said that a similar incident happens to them without the ND - "superiority". It IS about practicing the most basic tenets of firearms safety. Nothing advanced, elite, high-speed, or superior here:

 

Basic Firearms Safety Rules

 

1) Be aware of the condition of your firearm at all times

2) Do not point your firearm at anything you are not willing to shoot or destroy

3) Keep your boogerhook off the bangswitch until you are ready and justified to shoot

3) Be aware of your target, your safe backstop, your foreground (space between you and your target) and anything that may impact or change them

 

This guy broke all four rules, where if he followed even one of them this would not have happened.

 

A startle reflex/postural disturbance/sympathetic reflex is instantaneous. If this dad treated his gun as if it was loaded (Rule 1) was pointing it down range at his target (Rule 4 - pointed it in any safe direction at all) was aimed in on a shootable target (Rule 2) with his finger on the trigger (Rule 3) when this happened, than any reaction/flinch/startle response would have been immediate and the round should have sailed safely downrange, into the berm, into the ground, etc...

 

Now, since you brought it up, if you are holding a loaded gun (Rule 1) and your finger happens to be on the trigger (Rule 3) you should be aimed in at your target (Rule 2) with a safe backstop (Rule 4). If something distracting happens, you take your finger off the trigger (Rule 3) before you react to it and take your gun off target (Rule 2) and away from your downrange backstop (Rule 4) treating your firearm the entire time as if it is loaded (Rule 1).

 

Even better, you take your damn finger off the trigger (Rule 3), holster or place the gun down on a table, - or if you don't have a holster or table, and it is safe to do so, place it on the ground (Rule 1) then solve your issue.

 

If your finger is on the trigger (Rule 3) and you are pressing it at the time of the "surprise" - again you should already be aimed in on your target (Rule 2) with a safe backstop (Rule 4) or your finger should not be on the trigger - you simply stay on target and finish your shot (Rule 1). You may miss but you should still be in the general downrange/berm/safe direction (Rule 4). Then it is finger straight, gun down, solve your problem, etc....

 

Being a responsible adult with proper mindset has everything to do with incidents like this. Guys here have had this happen. They have all told you about it. Yet, no one has been a safety violator over it. They all say the same thing - safely secure the gun then get the hot brass off.

 

I know instructors who have kicked people out of classes for not handling this exact situation correctly. No appeal, no argument, no talking it over - bye bye, you are a safety concern. Same at any match - DQ for a safety violation.

 

So, once more for the cheap seats:

YOU DONT WAVE A GUN AROUND THE RANGE BECAUSE A PEICE OF BRASS IS BURNING YOU! IT'S DANGEROUS AND SOMEONE MAY GET HURT.

 

If you want me to say: Well..... One in a million it's going to hit you just right and in that single instance it's ok to wave a gun around and shoot your kid - news flash - it ain't gonna happen.

 

Wow, you have a lot of demands on my time before you respect my posts :rolleyes: You are also very generous with my experience. I paid good money and a lot of time to learn what I know about firearms, training, and use of force. I should just give my time away for free because you say so? Hmmmm.....

 

Anyway, not that I care what that you respect anything about me - but I have offered, to a great many here, to do just that - a day at the range for training and I'll show what I know - gratis. All they have to do is secure a range and their own ammo. I have offered it more than once and I have even had a few take me up on it. ;)

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