PA Non-Resident Concealed Carry for NJ Residents - Questions and Scenarios Thread

[sroc112 24]

I thought I would try and create a thread where people can post some questions and/or specific scenarios related to concealed carry in PA for a NJ resident who has a non-Res ccw permit from another state, such as New Hampshire. There may be people on this site, including myself, who often wonder what the fine print is in the law and what comes into play being a NJ citizen. This is not necessarily for people to come and "cheat" and not do their own homework - but we all know that sometimes reading a law can be like learning Mandarin Chinese. So here can be a place for us to post the "what ifs" so we can help make sure we are doing right by the law and staying out of trouble. If you feel this thread is useless or feel the urge to respond with "do your own research" then simple just do not respond to the thread and move on. Let it be here for those who do want to use it and can learn from it.

 

Some starter questions that I know come to my mind:

 

1. If driving into PA, one must still abide by NJ law relating to transport of a firearm while you are still on NJ grounds. Therefore, must weapon be stored out of reach from driver with ammunition separate and no ammunition in magazines? Once you cross the PA border, can you simply pull over to load your magazine, insert magazine into handgun, insert handgun into holders, insert holster onto belt, and carry on?

 

2. In NJ, you must travel directly to and from your point of destination when transporting a firearm. If one gets pulled over while still in NJ and it is revealed that there is an (unloaded) weapon in the vehicle, is it ok to say that PA is your destination? Suppose you are going to spend the weekend with your family in PA, staying at a relatives house or hotel, and hopping around to different attractions over the next few days. What then would be the correct response to provide a NJ officer in regard to "where are you headed that justifies transport of a gun"?

 

3. In relation to driving through a school zone, or any other restricted area where possession of a weapon is not allowed: let's say you are now in PA and your concealed weapon is loaded and in vehicle with you. The destination you are headed to requires that at some point you travel through a school zone. What is correct procedure here to abide by the law? Must you unload weapon and store in vehicle separate from each other, then reload when you pass through the school zone? Must you find an alternate path of travel that does not put you through a school zone? What if you are driving to a destination that is new to you and you are not familiar with the roads along the way and before you know it your GPS leads you through a school zone? Also, how does this law apply when traveling with a firearm in NJ and passing through a school zone?

 

Please feel free to add questions as you think of them and answer questions as they are posted. I hope this thread is of use and knowledge to all of those who can benefit from a better understanding of CCW with a non-resident permit! Some of us may either have or be in the process of obtaining their first legal permission to carry in another state, and can be nervous not to do anything wrong along the way, this thread is simply here to help provide some understanding.

 

* It must be understood that the information that will be provided on this thread is not legal advice and we are not attorneys at law. The information here will be our own interpretation of what the law is, and for final clarification and confirmation one must consult a legal representative on their own.*

[brucin 923]

1. You can have a loaded magazine as long as it is in a separate container from the gun. This was discussed with the NJ State Police at the NJ SAFE conference. I leave the house in NJ with my empty holster on my belt handgun in a case magazine in a different case and once I cross the border to america I stop insert mag and put the gun in the holster and I'm on my way.

 

2. I have a PA range use permit. They are all over the state of PA so that is where i'm going. Length of stay has no bearing on the matter and is frankly no ones business except yours.

 

3. I think as long as you don't stop and get out and walk around while carrying you are OK. I go to a restaurant that is directly across the street from a school in upstate NY ( I have a NY License to Carry) and never worry about it because the school zone law does not apply to private property.

[sroc112 24]

Awesome, thanks for the feedback!

 

1. You can have a loaded magazine as long as it is in a separate container from the gun. This was discussed with the NJ State Police at the NJ SAFE conference. I leave the house in NJ with my empty holster on my belt handgun in a case magazine in a different case and once I cross the border to america I stop insert mag and put the gun in the holster and I'm on my way.

 

2. I have a PA range use permit. They are all over the state of PA so that is where i'm going. Length of stay has no bearing on the matter and is frankly no ones business except yours.

 

3. I think as long as you don't stop and get out and walk around while carrying you are OK. I go to a restaurant that is directly across the street from a school in upstate NY ( I have a NY License to Carry) and never worry about it because the school zone law does not apply to private property.

In regard to #2, is a PA range use permit required? Can you use a PA range without one, what are the benefits of having one? Without having one, how does the scenario in #2 differ?

[pjd832 146]

1. You can have a loaded magazine as long as it is in a separate container from the gun. This was discussed with the NJ State Police at the NJ SAFE conference. I leave the house in NJ with my empty holster on my belt handgun in a case magazine in a different case and once I cross the border to america I stop insert mag and put the gun in the holster and I'm on my way.

 

 

is the wording in the statue not compartment?....as example: range bag with multiple compartments pistol in one compartment closed(locked if not in a locked trunk/compartment separate from passenger compartment or leaving the state as per fopa) and the loaded mags in a separate compartment in the same bag would be fine....you don't need to have multiple bags to transport a pistol to the range/another state etc....this is going above and beyond the law...its the same concept as the people who say one must dissemble the weapon and put components in multiple locations of vehicle...lol  

 

and for the sake of discussion one could have the pistol in a locked container in the trunk or inaccessible part of passenger compartment with loaded mag laying next to locked container and be in compliance as the weapon is whats required to be locked etc not ammunition and magazines

[JackDaWack 2,895]

2C:39-3 g. All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

 

Where does it say separate and in containers? FFS!

 

Remind me again why anyone here takes advice from the NJSP?

[T Bill 649]

Passing through a school zone with a loaded firearm in a state that allows CCW with an out of state CCW that is recognized by that state is still a federal violation of the Gun Free School Zone Act of 1990.  Get stopped with in the zone and you can be charged.  However, if you possess a CCW from the state you are in passing through a school zone, no violation of federal law has occurred.  You can thank Joe Biden for this one.   Some LEO do not worry about it, others enforce it when no other charges seem to work.  There is not even an exemption for LEOs on this one.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

 

Although the Federal GFSZA does provide an exception for an individual licensed to carry a firearm, this exception only applies in the State that physically issued the permit.^{[1][2][3][7][13][16]} Nearly all fifty States have provisions to issue concealed carry permits to citizens.^[17] Most of these States also enter into reciprocity agreements with other States where each State agrees to recognize the other's concealed carry permits.^[17] Because the Federal GFSZA requires the permit be issued by the State which the school zone is in,^[1][2][3] it is difficult for a permit holder to travel outside their State of issuance to a reciprocating State without violating the Federal GFSZA.^{[1][3][7][13][16]}

The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA), intended to allow qualified law enforcement officers the ability to carry guns nationwide, does not provide any exceptions to Federal Law per 18 U.S.C. § 926B. GFSZA does not make any exception for an off-duty qualified officer.^{[7][13][15][15]}

[mipafox 438]

Passing through a school zone with a loaded firearm in a state that allows CCW with an out of state CCW that is recognized by that state is still a federal violation of the Gun Free School Zone Act of 1990. Get stopped with in the zone and you can be charged. However, if you possess a CCW from the state you are in passing through a school zone, no violation of federal law has occurred. You can thank Joe Biden for this one. Some LEO do not worry about it, others enforce it when no other charges seem to work. There is not even an exemption for LEOs on this one.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

Although the Federal GFSZA does provide an exception for an individual licensed to carry a firearm, this exception only applies in the State that physically issued the permit.^{[1][2][3][7][13][16]} Nearly all fifty States have provisions to issue concealed carry permits to citizens.^[17] Most of these States also enter into reciprocity agreements with other States where each State agrees to recognize the other's concealed carry permits.^[17] Because the Federal GFSZA requires the permit be issued by the State which the school zone is in,^[1][2][3] it is difficult for a permit holder to travel outside their State of issuance to a reciprocating State without violating the Federal GFSZA.^{[1][3][7][13][16]}

The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA), intended to allow qualified law enforcement officers the ability to carry guns nationwide, does not provide any exceptions to Federal Law per 18 U.S.C. § 926B. GFSZA does not make any exception for an off-duty qualified officer.^{[7][13][15][15]}

Correct. You can be charged. You should count on it.

 

That being said, I have talked to PA LEO about this very topic and they say they generally do not enforce federal law or were not aware of this. There is danger, I believe it is very low. When I carry in other states I don't plot a route around 1000 foot radius circles for every school. If I see a school I just stay away from it.

 

I would not ask Jersey cops for advice on this since they are not familiar with a widespread CULTURE of civilian carry and NJ does not honor licesense of other states so it would never come up. No bashing of Jersey cops, but because of these realities, cops in America would probably consider this differently.

[pjd832 146]

2C:39-3 g. All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

 

Where does it say separate and in containers? FFS!

 

Remind me again why anyone here takes advice from the NJSP?

 

i agree unless you are talking about ammo/loaded mags then it needs to be separate from weapon...not separate containers just separate compartment if in a vehicle without a lockable trunk...ie: glock hard case...you can not have loaded magazines inside that case with pistol.....but range bag with multiple compartments pistol in one ammo/loaded mags in others ok

[InFamous 311]

Thanks for this thread, as I'm sure there will be many of us very soon with NH permits and be able to carry in PA for the first time. Mipa I'm sure knows the most for PA specific information. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

i agree unless you are talking about ammo/loaded mags then it needs to be separate from weapon...not separate containers just separate compartment if in a vehicle without a lockable trunk...ie: glock hard case...you can not have loaded magazines inside that case with pistol.....but range bag with multiple compartments pistol in one ammo/loaded mags in others ok

Says who?

 

By NJ standards i can have loose pistols and rifles and loose fully loaded magazines rolling around my locked trunk. Well i cant because I have an open trunk, but if i had a lockable trunk.... you get the point. I can also dump a pistol into a bag with loaded mags because NJ doesn't tell you how to transport your ammo.

[PK90 3,570]

Loaded mags and pistol can be in same case, ie laying next to each other, even spooning.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

[mipafox 438]

In PA loaded mags must be in a separate compartment of the container. Such as a rifle in a soft case and loaded mags on external pockets or a seperate area inside the case. Clearly this does not apply to handguns/SBR/SBS/MG if you have a license to carry of some sort, but it DOES apply to Title I long guns. For the latter, it's only a summary offense, though.

[bdhszy1 18]

1. You can have a loaded magazine as long as it is in a separate container from the gun. This was discussed with the NJ State Police at the NJ SAFE conference. I leave the house in NJ with my empty holster on my belt handgun in a case magazine in a different case and once I cross the border to america I stop insert mag and put the gun in the holster and I'm on my way.

 

 

 This was discussed at the safe conference by the trooper. I left after the power went out, and Evan Nappen was to speak later. I also went to the conference in Morristown a week or so ago and Nappen was the speaker there also. The question came up again about loaded magazines and he said you can not have loaded magazines while transporting. I questioned him after the meeting and he said he corrected the SP officer and corrected it the second time he spoke, which was after I had left. Who do you trust NJSP or Nappen? I'll load my magazines when I get to where I'm going and trust Nappen for legal advice.

[pjd832 146]

Says who?

 

By NJ standards i can have loose pistols and rifles and loose fully loaded magazines rolling around my locked trunk. Well i cant because I have an open trunk, but if i had a lockable trunk.... you get the point. I can also dump a pistol into a bag with loaded mags because NJ doesn't tell you how to transport your ammo.

 

i agree on the trunk but in the passenger compartment... i was 99% sure i read an ag clarification/case law cite that  a loaded magazine (not inserted in the weapon) in the same compartment of a bag/case constituted a concealed weapon while in the passenger compartment not the lockable trunk.......

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Doesn't matter what someone may have been convicted of, the only thing a judge can do is determine what the reasonable definition of an unloaded firearm is. AFAIK there are no appeals on this subject.

 

It makes even less sense that a judge would differentiate between the trunk and a case in the passenger compartment considering they are referenced by law as appropriate ways to transport.

 

 

If the issue here is a PA law then let's not rehash people over exaggerated view of NJ law

[sroc112 24]

Look, this was not meant to turn into a "how to transport ammo/loaded mags" throughout NJ thread. For the sake of the arguement, let's just assume we all transport an unloaded gun in one case, and ammo in a separate case. Therefore, now you are traveling with firearm and ammo stored as said, and now enter into route for your "PA CCW" fun filled weekend. Now, at that point, how do the above stated scenarios apply.

 

I have no issue taking the additional steps to assure I am MORE than Safe by NJs torturous gun laws. That is not so much my issue. My concern lies more so in the idea of now entering into another state with a weapon attached to hip, loaded, and how to stay out of prison. At the end of the day, I have no issue taking additional/unnessary steps as soon as I enter or leave the NJ state line to stay compliant with the NJ state laws of firearms transportation.

[pjd832 146]

Doesn't matter what someone may have been convicted of, the only thing a judge can do is determine what the reasonable definition of an unloaded firearm is......

 

It makes even less sense that a judge would differentiate between the trunk and a case in the passenger compartment considering they are referenced by law as appropriate ways to transport.

 

If the issue here is a PA law then let's not rehash people over exaggerated view of NJ law

 

i agree on the rehash....but in closing i believe that a judge would find it reasonable that by storing loaded mag and weapon together in the passenger compartment is more accessible than loose in the locked trunk of a vehicle....and doesn't past convictions not overturned create case law?

 

 

case law

noun

Simple Definition of case law: law that is based on decisions that judges have made in past cases

[JackDaWack 2,895]

A conviction must be appealed, and a judge must make a summary judgment.

 

The only case law the exists is from the 9th circuit and confirms what a reasonable person would understand to be loaded. A judge cannot redefine what loaded means, he can only interpret it's "generally understood" meaning.

 

Let's not further travel down a rabbit hole here. The law is clear on how to transport the gun in NJ, where you put the magazine and ammo is your decision so long it's not in the gun.

 

Keep in mind it's not whether the gun is accessible to you, it's whether or not you didn't follow the transportation law.

[Hairless_Ape 76]

This was discussed at the safe conference by the trooper. I left after the power went out, and Evan Nappen was to speak later. I also went to the conference in Morristown a week or so ago and Nappen was the speaker there also. The question came up again about loaded magazines and he said you can not have loaded magazines while transporting. I questioned him after the meeting and he said he corrected the SP officer and corrected it the second time he spoke, which was after I had left. Who do you trust NJSP or Nappen? I'll load my magazines when I get to where I'm going and trust Nappen for legal advice.

 

 

1- Never trust a cop.

2- Never trust a greaseball with a mullet.

3- Never trust a lawyer.

 

So which would I trust? The answer is: No.

[sroc112 24]

Correct. You can be charged. You should count on it.

That being said, I have talked to PA LEO about this very topic and they say they generally do not enforce federal law or were not aware of this. There is danger, I believe it is very low. When I carry in other states I don't plot a route around 1000 foot radius circles for every school. If I see a school I just stay away from it.

I would not ask Jersey cops for advice on this since they are not familiar with a widespread CULTURE of civilian carry and NJ does not honor licesense of other states so it would never come up. No bashing of Jersey cops, but because of these realities, cops in America would probably consider this differently.

So when you plot a route, are you able to filter your gps to exclude school zones?

[T Bill 649]

So when you plot a route, are you able to filter your gps to exclude school zones?

If you find one let me know.  

[brucin 923]

Awesome, thanks for the feedback!

 

 

In regard to #2, is a PA range use permit required? Can you use a PA range without one, what are the benefits of having one? Without having one, how does the scenario in #2 differ?

Yes you need a use permit or a PA hunting license. You can get a range use permit here:

 

https://www.theoutdoorshop.state.pa.us//FBG/game_secured/RangePermit.asp?ShopperID=D43D220A48A24A509B9F0AC5A7A9E633

[sroc112 24]

Yes you need a use permit or a PA hunting license. You can get a range use permit here:

 

https://www.theoutdoorshop.state.pa.us//FBG/game_secured/RangePermit.asp?ShopperID=D43D220A48A24A509B9F0AC5A7A9E633

Cool, thanks. I will look into obtaining one so I have it handy.

[Cereza 106]

2. I have a PA range use permit. They are all over the state of PA so that is where i'm going. Length of stay has no bearing on the matter and is frankly no ones business except yours.

 

 

If one does not have a CCW from PA (or a reciprocating state) can one transport a firearm to a PA range with just the range use permit?

[mipafox 438]

So when you plot a route, are you able to filter your gps to exclude school zones?

Not sure if you are talking to me or asking in general, but I don't give it a second thought. I tried to be conservative in my post, but I am really not concerned.

[mipafox 438]

If one does not have a CCW from PA (or a reciprocating state) can one transport a firearm to a PA range with just the range use permit?

Rifles you can take anywhere.

 

Handguns you can take to a range and rally points on your way to and from. There are other exceptions but that was your question. Look up 6105 and 6109 if you like.

[sroc112 24]

Not sure if you are talking to me or asking in general, but I don't give it a second thought. I tried to be conservative in my post, but I am really not concerned.

Eh i was more or less just wondering how one would attempt to avoid school zones if they are routing a trip to somewhere they are not familiar with.

[brucin 923]

If one does not have a CCW from PA (or a reciprocating state) can one transport a firearm to a PA range with just the range use permit?

 

Yes but you must follow PA law which are similar to NJ rules. Unloaded separate containers. Not sure about deviations.

[JohnnyB 4,323]

Yes but you must follow PA law which are similar to NJ rules. Unloaded separate containers. Not sure about deviations.

So if I understand this correctly, the range permit is not needed if I have a valid NH CCW?

[Cereza 106]

Yes but you must follow PA law which are similar to NJ rules. Unloaded separate containers. Not sure about deviations.

 

The deviations are what concern me since it's handguns we have. We want to go to the range with our friend (the one who got us into shooting) but if I'm reading the PA State Police site correctly, without a CCW having dinner with him or visiting his home for a few hours (i.e. deviations) would be a misdemeanor of the first degree. I tried calling the PA State Police a few weeks ago, but no one ever picks up the phone over there and I wasn't enthusiastic to leave my contact information on some random voicemail. 

 

6105 and 6109 provide a list of who's prohibited from having firearms, and what those residing in the commonwealth need to do for a license to carry, but neither addresses out-of-state owners as far as I can tell. It seems like it's not worth chancing and we'll just wait on our FL CCW. Who knows, with any luck PA acting AG, Castor, will reinstate the original FL/PA reciprocity agreement before Bruce Beemer is confirmed. If not, time to fill out the NH application…