Is it legal to leave a long gun at a friend's property out of state?

[Cecil Harvey 32]

A friend of mine has a large property in PA that he uses for bow hunting, and occasionally has friends like me over for target shooting. He and I are both NJ residents. He does not have an FID card or own any guns (he lives in Jersey City and doesn't want to go through the hassle). 

 

I occasionally go to his place, and bring my shotgun to bust some clays. It's the only place I ever use my shotgun, and I was wondering about the legality of leaving that there along with the clay thrower and steel targets I often bring along.

 

I don't want to violate the law re: transfers, etc., but I would like to minimize the stuff I have to haul out there when I visit every month.

[PK90 3,570]

IMHO, no.

[mipafox 438]

Short answer: it should be out of his possession - locked up and he does not have the key. Doesn't have to be Fort Knox or anything, any accomadation will do.

[T Bill 649]

A simple trigger lock where you hold the key would be fine.

[PK90 3,570]

Short answer: it should be out of his possession - locked up and he does not have the key. Doesn't have to be Fort Knox or anything, any accomadation will do.

 

Why can't he have access? Is that a PA thing?

[T Bill 649]

I see no reason as long as the buddy is legal to possess. However, it is the OP's property and how well can friends be trusted is an issue.  

[Bt Doctur 188]

So why is it not allowed. Most people do have/store guns out of state for safe keeping just in case.

[Scorpio64 5,155]

Have your buddy lease you some storage space.  Like, i dunno, a guest room or a closet.  You will need to check local laws/codes for subleasing property in owner occupied structures.  Especially if it is not his primary residence. 

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

I see no reason as long as the buddy is legal to possess. However, it is the OP's property and how well can friends be trusted is an issue.  

 

I read the original post as the buddy owns the property - Idk I don't see much wrong here unless the guy is going out and shooting people with it - if he is legal to possess and has your permission to store your firearm on his private property color me naive but I dont know what the issue is.

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

In most free states it is like storing a hammer at a friend's house.

 

 

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[mipafox 438]

Why can't he have access? Is that a PA thing?

It's not. If you leave a firearm with a resident of another state it is considered an interstate transfer under FEDERAL law (you know this of course) and requires an FFL to change ownership. Lawyers that know what they are talking about will tell you that if only you have access to it, and no resident of the other state does, it is not a transfer. As you know, there are exceptions for temporary loans for sporting purposes but that is not even remotely what is going on here. It's really stupid that you can't leave a gun with an out of state friend or family member but those are the laws. Practically speaking, the only way within reason you could be caught is if there is a crime committed of such severity that the cops call the ATF and requests a trace, and then starts trying to visit people to determine the chain of custody. Outside of somebody robbing a place with your gun or shooting somebody with it the chances are almost zero. But it's still a violation of federal law.

 

I would not rely on a trigger lock but I don't know for sure. Seems like he would still have access to it. Lock it in a cabinet or something and keep the key.

[PK90 3,570]

... If you leave a firearm with a resident of another state it is considered an interstate transfer under FEDERAL law (you know this of course) and requires an FFL to change ownership. ...

 

I disagree. There is no law that says one can not leave a firearm with someone else. No transfer of ownership has taken place.

[bhunted 887]

I called the NC AG Firearms Div. on this awhile back. I know this is PA, but The AG said they don't register long guns or shotguns so as long as the receiver is legal to own firearms, they have no problem. No FFL needed.

Check PA laws for similar.

 

 

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[mipafox 438]

There is no PA law to check.

 

I've said all I have to contrbiute, and what I have been told by lawyers. This question comes up rather frequently. If you believe I am incorrect, I have no problem with that.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Common Sense.  Totality of the Circumstances.  Intent.  Locking it in even an "El-Cheapo" 16 ga. cabinet shows you INTEND to not be a party to a transfer.  

 

Now we won't talk about my son's youth model scattergun that I drove to Iowa & gave him when he moved from the house to his 1st job 1.1K miles away.....  Like you said, he didn't hold-up a gas station with it, so.......

[GRIZ 3,369]

I agree with mipafox on this issue. Not a state but a Federal thing.

 

IMO not only your intent to deny possession but use of your firearm when you're not there. I don't think a trigger lock is enough as one could still use the gun to hold up a gas station as long as he didnt let someone see the trigger was locked. Anything from a locked soft case to a $10,000 safe would meet the criteria you meant to deny possession, use, or transfer to your friend in PA.

 

Please stop the phony baloney lease or rental agreement suggestions. They aren't going to save you legally IMO. A $100 sheet metal cabinet that your friend doesn't have the key to and allows you to leave at his house without any compensation probably will.

[PK90 3,570]

Please post the Federal Law.

 

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[GRIZ 3,369]

Please post the Federal Law.

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18USC922a.5 prohibits:

 

any person...sell, transfer, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any...person who the transfer knows...does not reside in the state the transferor resides.

 

Now the same section of law permits loan of a firearm for lawful sporting purpose to the resident of another state. The legal issue is what constitutes temporary in this case. A month, a year, 20 years? If I come to AZ and you lend me a shotgun to go quail hunting that would be okay. The OP can take the shotgun and legally transfer the gun there to his friend who is also a NJ resident. The issue as I see it is:

 

1. He's not transferring the shotgun to his friend who is also a NJ resident IAW NJ law. If he did there's no problem. If you transfer a firearm to another NJ resident without meeting requirements of NJ in another state could make it a federal issue (across state lines).

 

2. He's not maintaining control over the shotgun like they do at a rental range.

 

IANAL but to avoid any issues on a transfer or what is a "temporary loan" why I suggest locking it in something in PA. This removes all doubt of transfer being made. He could also transfer the firearm, meeting NJ requirements, to another NJ resident anywhere as far that goes.

 

Possibility of being prosecuted for this? Transferring a firearm out of state to avoid state law. Probably close to zero. Remove all possibility by putting a $2 lock on the case.

[PK90 3,570]

He is not transferring, giving, or whatever to any person. He is only storing it at their house.

 

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[GRIZ 3,369]

He is not transferring, giving, or whatever to any person. He is only storing it at their house.

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I agree. Securing the shotgun from use ensures it's storage.

[NJGF 375]

Not exactly the same but the ATF allows your to ship a firearm to your out of state friend as long as they don't take possession of it.

 

Top 10 Frequently Asked Firearms Questions and Answers

 

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0501-firearms-top-10-qaspdf/download

 

6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?

Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where

he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to

the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Top 10 Frequently Asked Firearms Questions and Answers

 

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0501-firearms-top-10-qaspdf/download

 

6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?

 

Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where

he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to

the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than

the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm. 

[Howard 538]

If you are that concerned, since you are both Jersey residents, just fill out a COE and then he can have your gun (actually his gun now) at his PA house.  Just to be on the safe side have a contract that he must sell it back to you for $1 at any time you demand.

[Cecil Harvey 32]

If you are that concerned, since you are both Jersey residents, just fill out a COE and then he can have your gun (actually his gun now) at his PA house.  Just to be on the safe side have a contract that he must sell it back to you for $1 at any time you demand.

 

Does that work if he doesn't have an FID card?

[T Bill 649]

Nope. OP stated buddy does not have FID.

[GRIZ 3,369]

If you are that concerned, since you are both Jersey residents, just fill out a COE and then he can have your gun (actually his gun now) at his PA house.  Just to be on the safe side have a contract that he must sell it back to you for $1 at any time you demand.

 

 

No need for the $1. The something of value ($1) only applies to real property AFAIK.

 

 

Does that work if he doesn't have an FID card?

That would seem to be permitted under Federal law. However, I wouldn't do it. It might cost a lot to prove you're right. Avoid issues with that $2 lock on the case.

[Kevin125 4,772]

Seems like the best plan is to have that $100-$150 locked cabinet at his place.

 

Interesting option vs my previous idea of renting a Condo west of New Hope.

[Cecil Harvey 32]

Thanks for your input, everyone. I think I know what to do now.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Thanks for your input, everyone. I think I know what to do now.

Move?

[raz-0 1,259]

There is no PA law to check.

 

I've said all I have to contrbiute, and what I have been told by lawyers. This question comes up rather frequently. If you believe I am incorrect, I have no problem with that.

 

 

Not to argue you are wrong about the law, but I parsed the original question to mean that the two people in question are not residents in different states, but both NJ residents, one with a PA property. So...

 

Gun wise, IIRC that dude is legally a resident of both states as far as purchases go? Dunno what that does to the legal math. 

[mipafox 438]

Oops. That's the part I missed.