Borrowing a handgun from a NJ resident for a range trip

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Assuming that the borrower has a valid NJ FID card (and is therefore a non-prohibited person) I was told my my local FFL (who is also a retired Chief of Police in a neighboring municipality) that there is nothing in either the Statutes or Administrative Code to prevent him from lending me one of his handguns to take to the range.

 

There is nothing to stop the police from running the serial number of said handgun (if it was discovered by them) to ascertain that it is neither stolen nor associated with past crimes, and I agree with that.

 

I know the general consensus around here is that you may not lend or borrow a handgun for temporary use, except at the range.

I told him this, but he was quite certain to the contrary as stated in the first paragraph of this post.

 

He is going to check with the Firearms Unit in West Trenton to get their take on the question.

 

Remember, there is not a change of ownership of the handgun. Just a temporary change of possessor, and it will be transported properly under the exemptions in the law for non-carry-permit holders here in the PRNJ.

 

Please respond with a definitive quote from the Laws of NJ to back up your response.

 

Thanks!

 

Brian

[blksheep 466]

2C:58-3.1 Temporary Transfer of Firearms...

[blksheep 466]

2C:58-3.1. Temporary transfer of firearms

1. a. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer or disposition of firearms, the legal owner, or a dealer licensed under N.J.S.2C:58-2, may temporarily transfer a handgun, rifleor shotgun to another person who is 18 years of age or older, whether or not the person receiving the firearm holds a firearms purchaser identification card or a permit to carry a handgun. The person to whom a handgun, rifle or shotgun is temporarily transferred by the legal owner of the firearm or a licensed dealer may receive, possess, carry and use that handgun, rifle or shotgun,

 

if the transfer is made upon a firing range operated by a licensed dealer,

 

by a law enforcement agency,

 

a legally recognized military organization or a rifle or pistol club which has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits to the superintendent a list of its members and if the firearm is received, possessed, carried and used for the sole purpose of target practice, trap or skeet shooting, or competition upon that firing range or instruction and training at any location.

 

A transfer under this subsection shall be for not more than eight consecutive hours in any 24-hour period and may be made for a set fee or an hourly charge.

 

This paragraph is key...

 

The firearm shall be handled and used by the person to whom it is temporarily transferred only in the actual presence or under the direct supervision of the legal owner of the firearm, the dealer who transferred the firearm or any other person competent to supervise the handling and use of firearms and authorized to act for that purpose by the legal owner or licensed dealer. The legal owner of the firearm or the licensed dealer shall be on the premises or the property of the firing range during the entire time that the firearm is in the possession of the person to whom it is temporarily transferred

[kirk2022 43]

Brian, Where are you looking to go shoot at? And are you looking to shoot A certain handgun? 

I'm pretty sure we will be opening the new steel range at Cumberland this weekend, Maybe we could meetup out there sometime.

[Darrenf 422]

Brian, Where are you looking to go shoot at? And are you looking to shoot A certain handgun?

I'm pretty sure we will be opening the new steel range at Cumberland this weekend, Maybe we could meetup out there sometime.

What new range is this?

[kirk2022 43]

Not A new range.  Just another area that we added at our range in Millville

[Darrenf 422]

Not A new range. Just another area that we added at our range in Millville

I just joined a few weeks ago. I don't remember hearing about it. Can you fill me in?

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Brian, Where are you looking to go shoot at? And are you looking to shoot A certain handgun? 

I'm pretty sure we will be opening the new steel range at Cumberland this weekend, Maybe we could meetup out there sometime.

 

Actually Kirk, this was an academic question that was raised as I was in his shop today to do a purchase.

It turns out that the expiration date on my permit was not 180 days from original issue, but actually 185 days (5/18/16-11/18/16)

So now I am headed back to my local PD tomorrow to apply for additional new permits so I can take possession of my new (to me) handgun.

NICS went in (and is valid for 30 days upon approval) so I'm not concerned, just a little p.o.'d at the PD clerk's lack of arithmetic skills.

 

I know the Pistol Plinking range is due to open soon and I'm looking forward to using it.

I'll be there Sunday afternoon for Paul A's holster class for my badge sticker.

 

Brian

[kirk2022 43]

Sounds good.   We were out there Monday and set the new steel targets.Just to the right of the Holster range.

Just have some signage to finish up and it will be ready for use.

[PK90 3,570]

IMO, the Chief is wrong.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

[ChrisJM981 924]

IMO, the Chief is wrong.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

According to the law, the chief is incorrect.

[AverageJoe 95]

IMO, the Chief is wrong.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

Not a matter of opinion, the law stats it clearly lol. 

[Newtonian 453]

I was referred here in response to my post on borrowing handguns. Thanks for the advice.

 

Here's more related questions, all involving an adverse but nonviolent encounter with law enforcement. 

 

Let's say a cop walks up to you at a range inquiring about ownership of a particular gun you're using. Theoretical situation -- he "heard" that a pink Glock was stolen in the next town and you're shooting a pink Glock. Must you demonstrate legal ownership? How?

 

Let's say the SHTF or your neighbor reports you as a gun hoarding right wing nut. Cops visit and ask to see your gun collection. You stupidly comply (or they have a warrant). How do you demonstrate to their satisfaction that you own all the guns you show them? What if these are very, very well prepared officers and ask about "that pink glock you purchased in 2010" which you cannot produce? What happens if you have a gun that's not on their master list? 

[PK90 3,570]

In NJ you are guilty until proven innocent. But you knew that. You will be arrested. When there is no evidence to prosecute, you will be found NG.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

[leahcim 680]

"When dealing with guns, the [NJ] citizen acts at his peril"

State of NJ v Peletteri

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I was referred here in response to my post on borrowing handguns. Thanks for the advice.

 

Here's more related questions, all involving an adverse but nonviolent encounter with law enforcement. 

 

Let's say a cop walks up to you at a range inquiring about ownership of a particular gun you're using. Theoretical situation -- he "heard" that a pink Glock was stolen in the next town and you're shooting a pink Glock. Must you demonstrate legal ownership? How?

 

Let's say the SHTF or your neighbor reports you as a gun hoarding right wing nut. Cops visit and ask to see your gun collection. You stupidly comply (or they have a warrant). How do you demonstrate to their satisfaction that you own all the guns you show them? What if these are very, very well prepared officers and ask about "that pink glock you purchased in 2010" which you cannot produce? What happens if you have a gun that's not on their master list? 

EASY---NOTHING!

 

I have inherited firearms my Dad owned.  He passed in '82.  Mom gave me a few things, "come and take this and that, I know your Father would want you to have them".  So they're not registered to me as they passed thru the Estate.  In 240 years of NJ history, a crap-load of firearms have passed down thru generations.  I don't have to prove it's mine.  It's merely tangible personal property.  

 

The situation w/ pink Glock is easily remedied when a Cop asks me about it, as I'd ask him/her what serial number are they looking for and then show them mine.  After they hit the dead-end, I'd tell them to have a nice day.  Even if he didn't have a Police radio he could still use his cell phone to call HQ.  So I'd let him write-down the serial number & then call it in to clear myself.  If I bought the gun somewhere in NJ (and it wasn't willed to me), it's already registered to me, so what harm is there in cooperating?  They already KNOW what comes back TO ME, lol!  In point of fact, knowing as many Cops as I do (and shooting with some really GOOD shooting ones), I'd venture a guess that if I volunteered to let them take a peek & copy the serial number with their camera phones they'd shrug and not bother and just say, "Thanks, we're just checking"......

 

In 45+ YEARS of shooting, I've never heard of someone being approached at a range in this manner.  Our club has plenty of LEO's as members.  They go to the Diner with us after Matches .

[Newtonian 453]

EASY---NOTHING!

 

I have inherited firearms my Dad owned.  He passed in '82.  Mom gave me a few things, "come and take this and that, I know your Father would want you to have them".  So they're not registered to me as they passed thru the Estate.  In 240 years of NJ history, a crap-load of firearms have passed down thru generations.  I don't have to prove it's mine.  It's merely tangible personal property.  

 

The situation w/ pink Glock is easily remedied when a Cop asks me about it, as I'd ask him/her what serial number are they looking for and then show them mine.  After they hit the dead-end, I'd tell them to have a nice day.  Even if he didn't have a Police radio he could still use his cell phone to call HQ.  So I'd let him write-down the serial number & then call it in to clear myself.  If I bought the gun somewhere in NJ (and it wasn't willed to me), it's already registered to me, so what harm is there in cooperating?  They already KNOW what comes back TO ME, lol!  In point of fact, knowing as many Cops as I do (and shooting with some really GOOD shooting ones), I'd venture a guess that if I volunteered to let them take a peek & copy the serial number with their camera phones they'd shrug and not bother and just say, "Thanks, we're just checking"......

 

In 45+ YEARS of shooting, I've never heard of someone being approached at a range in this manner.  Our club has plenty of LEO's as members.  They go to the Diner with us after Matches .

Last point well taken. I mentioned it as a theoretical not as a genuine concern. 

 

He can make up a serial number. Only way you can prove it's not on your gun is to show him, and once you do that you're agreeing to a search.

 

My question involved the burden of proof that you own the gun legally. Your parents divorce and you, John Smith, acquire a handgun from the estate of Joe Jones, your mother's second husband. "This gun is registered to a guy named Jones, not Smith." That's the issue. 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Last point well taken. I mentioned it as a theoretical not as a genuine concern. 

 

He can make up a serial number. Only way you can prove it's not on your gun is to show him, and once you do that you're agreeing to a search.

 

My question involved the burden of proof that you own the gun legally. Your parents divorce and you, John Smith, acquire a handgun from the estate of Joe Jones, your mother's second husband. "This gun is registered to a guy named Jones, not Smith." That's the issue. 

Angelo,

 

No search is agreed to, per-se.  If he SEES a pink Glock out in the open it's the same as if he SEES a roach in my ashtray!  He doesn't need anything else because probable cause has been established.  Nothing is stopping me from taking a pic with my phone of the serial numbers & emailing it to myself or my lawyer .  

 

In point of fact there's tens of thousands of hand guns that are passed-down annually throughout NJ.  Somehow it's a NON-ISSUE...  Cops don't go around looking to make people prove that their Rolex belongs to them (or anything else).  It's not like fictitious plates on a motor vehicle.  So no need to play Elmer Fudd and worry about stuff that never happens.

[Newtonian 453]

Angelo,

 

No search is agreed to, per-se.  If he SEES a pink Glock out in the open it's the same as if he SEES a roach in my ashtray!  He doesn't need anything else because probable cause has been established.  Nothing is stopping me from taking a pic with my phone of the serial numbers & emailing it to myself or my lawyer .  

 

In point of fact there's tens of thousands of hand guns that are passed-down annually throughout NJ.  Somehow it's a NON-ISSUE...  Cops don't go around looking to make people prove that their Rolex belongs to them (or anything else).  It's not like fictitious plates on a motor vehicle.  So no need to play Elmer Fudd and worry about stuff that never happens.

100% agree. I wasn't arguing about those circumstances per se but angling towards something else. 

[jackandjill 683]

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

[Silence Dogood 468]

I carry COEs for long guns and receipts for pistols in my range bag - always.  Never going to volunteer them, but you never know ...