Helping a family friend sell his collection - M1 Carbine ???

[mustang69 505]

OK, so over Thanksgiving dinner we get to talking firearms and a family friend asked for some help selling his collection.  He's in his 80's and has health issues, and will be moving to Seattle area to be with his son.  I offered to help him sell what he has and asked him to send me a list.

 

I got it today and this was on it:

 

U.S. Cal. .30 M1, IBM Corp. (Vintage) World War II Era Semiautomatic Military M1 Carbine

 

If I read NJ law correctly this thing isn't legal in PRNJ, so how does he go about getting rid of it?  He's probably had it since he got out of the service in the 1950's so his possession pre-dates the ban.  Is there any way I can legally help him sell it?  My original intention was to legally take possession of what he had and then sell them off, with proceeds getting sent to him.

 

Am I being paranoid about not wanting to deal with it?  Everything else he has I can manage, this one has me a bit concerned..  

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[9X19 125]

Drive him over the border into PA, and he can sell it to a gun shop there.

[Rob0115 1,105]

OK, so over Thanksgiving dinner we get to talking firearms and a family friend asked for some help selling his collection.  He's in his 80's and has health issues, and will be moving to Seattle area to be with his son.  I offered to help him sell what he has and asked him to send me a list.

 

I got it today and this was on it:

 

U.S. Cal. .30 M1, IBM Corp. (Vintage) World War II Era Semiautomatic Military M1 Carbine

 

If I read NJ law correctly this thing isn't legal in PRNJ, so how does he go about getting rid of it?  He's probably had it since he got out of the service in the 1950's so his possession pre-dates the ban.  Is there any way I can legally help him sell it?  My original intention was to legally take possession of what he had and then sell them off, with proceeds getting sent to him.

 

Am I being paranoid about not wanting to deal with it?  Everything else he has I can manage, this one has me a bit concerned..  

 

Thanks

The M1 is banned by and as an assault weapon. Be careful,with the transfer to me with the intent sell thing. You're not a dealer and purchasing with intent to sell can be construed as a straw purchase.

[JohnnyB 4,325]

Too many issues here! The M1 would have had to have been registered in the PRNJ or sold within 30 days of the 1990 ban.

If he does not own it legally in NJ, how can he sell or transfer to you legally since the 30 day window went by over 26 years ago?

 

Do what 9X19 suggested!  Take him and the rifle to an FFL across the bridge into PA and sell the rifle. Do not take possession as it would be illegal for you to do so!

Oh, and don't get pulled over on the way there!

 

Safest bet would be to not get involved with this rifle at all! Just help with the others!

[GRIZ 3,369]

The M1 is banned by and as an assault weapon. Be careful,with the transfer to me with the intent sell thing. You're not a dealer and purchasing with intent to sell can be construed as a straw purchase.

Straw purchase applies to someone buying from a dealer for a prohibited person. No application to an individual selling. Nothing wrong with buying with the intent to resell occasionally. That doesn't make you "engaged in the business". If I acquired a collection of 100 guns and decided to sell them before I die that doesn't make me "engaged in the business".

 

Possession of the carbine before the NJ AWB took effect has no bearing on its legality. If it wasn't registered in NJ before the AWB it's illegal. If it was registered and the owner dies the executor has to dispose of the

carbine by selling it to a FFL (in or out of NJ), transfer it to someone legally out of state,moving it out of state if they are the heir, or surrending it to police. If this were the case I would think that selling it to a FFL out of state would bring the most as a NJ FFL would have to sell it out of state.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Too many issues here! The M1 would have had to be registered in the PRNJ and every 2 years thereafter or sold within 30 days of the 1990 ban.

If he does not own it legally in NJ, how can he sell or transfer to you legally since the 30 day window went by over 26 years ago?

 

Do what 9X19 suggested! Take him and the rifle to an FFL across the bridge into PA and sell the rifle. Do not take possession as it would be illegal for you to do so!

Oh, and don't get pulled over on the way there!

 

Safest bet would be to not get involved with this rifle at all! Just help with the others!

If it was registered in NJ when the AWB started it's registered. Does not have to be renewed every 2 years.

[carl_g 568]

Whatever he does don't have him turn it in. He'll probably get arrested for possession of an assault weapon.

[My1stGlock 144]

What's the asking price anyways? 

[JohnnyB 4,325]

If it was registered in NJ it's registered. Does not have to be renewed every 2 years.

Thanks, Fixed it. I looked up the original 1990 law which initially required the 2 year registration at a cost of $90 each time! I stand corrected.

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

I just went thought this exact scenario with the exact same firearm.

 

In our case, the gun was delivered to a local FFL who took possession and logged it into his "assault rifle" book, which I'm told also requires notification to the either the local PD or state PD.  The PD contacted the owner of the gun for an explanation as to why he had it in his possession.  He didn't realize it had been named on the ban list in the 90's.

 

The FFL sold the gun on an auction and shipped it out of state...to one of the Carolina's if I'm not mistaken.  Net sale proceeds were around $700 but no legal issues and a big relief to be done with it.

[myhatinthering 462]

such bs this state....

[JohnnyB 4,325]

I just went thought this exact scenario with the exact same firearm.

 

In our case, the gun was delivered to a local FFL who took possession and logged it into his "assault rifle" book, which I'm told also requires notification to the either the local PD or state PD.  The PD contacted the owner of the gun for an explanation as to why he had it in his possession.  He didn't realize it had been named on the ban list in the 90's.

 

The FFL sold the gun on an auction and shipped it out of state...to one of the Carolina's if I'm not mistaken.  Net sale proceeds were around $700 but no legal issues and a big relief to be done with it.

So it went well for you and that is good. Your CLEO was nice about it I would assume.  What if the CLEO was an anti? Could he have sought charges? I just don't know

in this crazy state!  You did the right thing but could it have backfired on you? Who knows!

 

Wrap it up good, hide it, Drive carefully and get it out of the state to sell to an FFL that will not be required to notify your local PD! I am not usually paranoid but this situation has me thinking of all that could (but probably not would) happen!

I think the LAST thing I would do is to notify the police that a crime was committed, which you did by selling to a NJ FFL who by law, had to contact the authorities.

[Sevenshot 98]

Do you know anyone in a gun friendly state that can hold onto it for him? I know a lot of army guys in the Carolinas who would be interested. PM me what he's thinking price-wise. I'll spread the word and get you in touch if there are any bites.

[OfcrFek 21]

Straw purchase applies to someone buying from a dealer for a prohibited person.

 

While I agree that occasionally purchasing something knowing it will eventually be resold won't hurt anything, there has already been a case where a police officer on vacation purchased a glock 19 that was on sale with the intent on selling it to his father-in-law (who is not a prohibited person), and was arrested for it. Even if neither of you are prohibited persons, it's still a straw purchase....

[JohnnyB 4,325]

Do you know anyone in a gun friendly state that can hold onto it for him? I know a lot of army guys in the Carolinas who would be interested. PM me what he's thinking price-wise. I'll spread the word and get you in touch if there are any bites.

Hold onto it = illegal transfer.  If a sale, an FFL in the seller's state, New Jersey in this case,  would have to facilitate the transfer since the rifle is here. No F2F with anyone outside NJ. Someone please correct me if I am wrong!

This is starting to make my head hurt!  There is NO way of legally dealing with this situation since the law was already broken many years ago! Two choices remain.

 

1) get it out of state and sell it. (no one will know).

2) Turn it in to PD or a NJ FFL. (everone will know).

[GRIZ 3,369]

While I agree that occasionally purchasing something knowing it will eventually be resold won't hurt anything, there has already been a case where a police officer on vacation purchased a glock 19 that was on sale with the intent on selling it to his father-in-law (who is not a prohibited person), and was arrested for it. Even if neither of you are prohibited persons, it's still a straw purchase....

I remember the case you're thinking of but there was more to it than you're saying. I can't recall all the details but the guy who bought the gun from the dealer was involved in some other stuff. I can't see how they could make that stick as the original purchaser bought from an FFL and was transferring it through a FFL in another state. Not sure what became of that case.

 

I mention prohibited person in regards to a straw purchase as that is the usual reason a straw purchase is made. You can legally buy a firearm as a gift for some not a prohibited person.

 

Straw purchase only applies to purchasing from a dealer not an individual to individual transaction.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

^ Straw Purchase applies at ANY purchase (Through FFL or private) in which one party

knowingly purchases a firearm for another individual.

 

Example:  you purchase a firearm and give it to your brother - Straw purchase

 

If a person purchases a firearm and than legally sells (transfers) it to the other party,

it is NOT a Straw Purchase.

 

Example: you purchase same firearm and then legally sell / transfer it to your brother.

                he fills out a HG permit, or (if out of state) you ship it to his FFL for legal

                disposition to your brother - this is not a Straw purchase.

[GRIZ 3,369]

^ Straw Purchase applies at ANY purchase (Through FFL or private) in which one party

knowingly purchases a firearm for another individual.

 

Example:  you purchase a firearm and give it to your brother - Straw purchase

 

If a person purchases a firearm and than legally sells (transfers) it to the other party,

it is NOT a Straw Purchase.

 

Example: you purchase same firearm and then legally sell / transfer it to your brother.

                he fills out a HG permit, or (if out of state) you ship it to his FFL for legal

                disposition to your brother - this is not a Straw purchase.

Jack, I'll argue that with you. Read the ATF what ifs. I can legally buy a firearm to give as a gift to anyone who is not a prohibited person. Yes, state and federal laws have to be complied with.

 

18 USC 922 (a) (6) makes no mention of a transfer person to person. It does say transfer from a "licensed ffl, importer, collector etc".

[NJGF 375]

^ The instructions for question 11.a on ATF Form 4473 state:

 

"You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party."

[Rob0115 1,105]

Straw purchase applies to someone buying from a dealer for a prohibited person. No application to an individual selling. Nothing wrong with buying with the intent to resell occasionally. That doesn't make you "engaged in the business". If I acquired a collection of 100 guns and decided to sell them before I die that doesn't make me "engaged in the business".

Possession of the carbine before the NJ AWB took effect has no bearing on its legality. If it wasn't registered in NJ before the AWB it's illegal. If it was registered and the owner dies the executor has to dispose of the

carbine by selling it to a FFL (in or out of NJ), transfer it to someone legally out of state,moving it out of state if they are the heir, or surrending it to police. If this were the case I would think that selling it to a FFL out of state would bring the most as a NJ FFL would have to sell it out of state.

Your example is very different than what he said. He said I'll transfer to me to dispose of them. Your example is I'll buy 100 and maybe sell some over my lifetime. His intent is to deal those guns, in while as quickly as possible, not over some period where he will evaluate what he does and doesn't like. INAL but sounds a bit off to me.

[Rob0115 1,105]

^ The instructions for question 11.a on ATF Form 4473 state:

 

"You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party."

 

 Here is a cut and paste from form 4473:

 

 

1. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are

   acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.) Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. 

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANS- FEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. 

 

It covers gifts in explanatory notes as you outlined.  However, unless the OP is giving these guns away I am not sure it's a good idea to transfer with the intent to sell.  

[302w 83]

IBMs are a good manufacturer.

 

I would sell it to a FFL in PA or sell it to a PA resident interested in it through a PA FFL.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

A person can 'Gift" a firearm to another but that person must be legally

able to obtain the firearm in his/her state.

 

Example; You can purchase a firearm for your dad for Christmas, but it must

                be transferred legally 9HG permit or Coe, ect.)

 

If you purchase the firearm yourself and just give it to your dad - that is a

straw purchase.......

[NJGF 375]

A person can 'Gift" a firearm to another but that person must be legally

able to obtain the firearm in his/her state.

 

Example; You can purchase a firearm for your dad for Christmas, but it must

                be transferred legally 9HG permit or Coe, ect.)

 

If you purchase the firearm yourself and just give it to your dad - that is a

straw purchase.......

 

Would this be a straw purchase or an illegal transfer?

 

In this case it can't be legally transferred as it is an illegal "assault weapon".

 

Is there a legal way out of the situation? If the weapon was made inoperable (possibly by removing the firing pin and disposing of it) back in the 90's when the assault weapon ban was enacted then it would not be an assault weapon and could be sold/transferred. Paperwork would have had to been submitted back then, and since it wasn't that would have been an issue but probably one that no one would care about now. So if the op verifies that the rifle was permanently modified back in the 90's I think he is OK for the family friend to have it sold via an FFL. 

[Scorpio64 5,153]

A person can 'Gift" a firearm to another but that person must be legally

able to obtain the firearm in his/her state.

 

Example; You can purchase a firearm for your dad for Christmas, but it must

                be transferred legally 9HG permit or Coe, ect.)

 

If you purchase the firearm yourself and just give it to your dad - that is a

straw purchase.......

 

Wonderful law abiding son buys rifle (with his own money)  to give to dad as a christmas present, COE's filled out.  not a straw purchase.

 

Dad with (or without) criminal history approaches son and gives son $700 to buy a gun, son buys gun and gives it to dad, no COE filled out.. This is a straw purchase.

 

If you buy a firearm with your own money, it's not a straw purchase. 

 

Random thought.  I wonder if any 2A attorneys are also FFLs.  That seems like it could be useful.

[Mr.Stu 1,918]

While I agree that occasionally purchasing something knowing it will eventually be resold won't hurt anything, there has already been a case where a police officer on vacation purchased a glock 19 that was on sale with the intent on selling it to his father-in-law (who is not a prohibited person), and was arrested for it. Even if neither of you are prohibited persons, it's still a straw purchase....

The kicker in this case was that the officer claimed the LEO discount and therefore started in the paperwork that he was buying it for himself. In actual fact his father, living in another state had already paid him for it. This made it a straw purchase with a side helping of fraud.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

I was commenting on the 'Straw Purchase' issue originally.

 

There are a few ways that the rifle can be disposed, but one of them

is not to you, unfortunately.

 

The easiest way is as the others suggested, you take it to a PA dealer (FFL)

and sell it. I strongly suggest you make phone calls before driving around with 

it.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Jack, I'll argue that with you. Read the ATF what ifs. I can legally buy a firearm to give as a gift to anyone who is not a prohibited person. Yes, state and federal laws have to be complied with.

18 USC 922 (a) (6) makes no mention of a transfer person to person. It does say transfer from a "licensed ffl, importer, collector etc".

 

 

A person can 'Gift" a firearm to another but that person must be legally

able to obtain the firearm in his/her state.

 

Example; You can purchase a firearm for your dad for Christmas, but it must

                be transferred legally 9HG permit or Coe, ect.)

 

If you purchase the firearm yourself and just give it to your dad - that is a

straw purchase.......

Jack, we're saying the same thing in a different way.

[GRIZ 3,369]

The kicker in this case was that the officer claimed the LEO discount and therefore started in the paperwork that he was buying it for himself. In actual fact his father, living in another state had already paid him for it. This made it a straw purchase with a side helping of fraud.

I understand that but an iffy prosecution IMO. As I said before, I read the guy was involved in some other stuff that the US Attorney couldn't make stick.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

 

 

 

Jack, we're saying the same thing in a different way.

Good thing Pete!

We could be saying different things in the same way................

lol

 

And Happy Belated Thanksgiving..............