Scope or Reflex?

[aambulo 0]

I'm currently leaning on a reflex sight as I'm planning to use my AR as an all-purpose, offensive (SHTF/WROL situations)/defensive gun. So considering the distances, a reflex would probably suit my needs just fine. But I'm also considering the red-dot scope with some magnification since I'd like to be able to use my AR for some medium-distance shooting (100+ yards).

 

So now I'm debating between a red-dot scope or a reflex sight. I've done some research and found arguments for both. I'm wondering if any one here has one currently on their AR and the reasons why you have decided on one (or the other). Alternatively, if you installed something completely different, I'd be interested to learn why as well. 

[T Bill 649]

Lack of stating how much you want to spend complicates things. So I'll throw this out there. Buy a Burris AR-332, get a Burris FastFire 3 for free.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/promotions/free-fastfire-3-with-ar-332-or-ar-536-prism-sight-purchase

[ChrisJM981 924]

I currently have an Aimpoint PRO on my rifle. It's a great red dot sight, however I have astigmatism and currently the dot is blurred at higher intensity settings. I purchased a Vortex Spitfire 1x prism scope to address the issue, as there is no light blur produced. Unfortunately it has an eye relief of about 3", meaning I need to be on the rifle, making it slower for target acquisition than a holographic weapon sight(HWS), which has unlimited eye relief.

 

Many people are hesitant to trust EoTech after their sights were recalled due to problems in extreme temperature changes. I am eagerly awaiting the Vortex Razor AMG UH-1 as a potential replacement for my current Aimpoint. Edit: This would probably be my pick for use of a magnifier.

 

http://www.recoilweb.com/new-holographic-red-dot-vortex-uh-1-118902.html

 

Burris and Steiner Optics both make 3x scopes with Picatinny rails on top of the optic for the attachment of a HWS. Vortex has a Picatinny rail at a 45 degree angle, allowing the shooter to turn the gun slightly for use of the HWS without needing to change head position. That would be my choice if my rail was unable to accommodate a 45 degree mount.

[M1Thumb 30]

If you're going to be using the rifle inside of 100 yards, I'd go with an Aimpoint red dot optic.  I have one on my M4 clone, and it's superb.  If you want to reach out, go with a low power scope, probably 4x32 or something to that effect.  Ultimately, an AR15 with a 16" barrel isn't a great rifle for reaching out beyond 200 yards or so.  That little squirrel cartridge loses its punch fairly quickly down range, and it's also fairly susceptible to the breeze.  On the other hand, at 7 yards, the round will more than likely over-penetrate, go through the sheetrock, and hit granny in the next room...bad news.  But, to each his own.

If your intent is to use the rifle inside of a football field, go with an Aimpoint.  I would not drop the bucks on a quality magnified optic unless you plan on getting the rifle outside on a regular basis and firing beyond 100 yards.  Also, be wary of quality.  In other words, don't expect a $60 optic to be there for you when you need it to function.  You can't go wrong with Aimpoint, Trijicon, or Leupold.

[bhunted 887]

~546 yrds or so actually... Almost best of both worlds...

 

OP:Anyway, maybe a Vortex Strike Eagle would fit you best.

 

If you're going to be using the rifle inside of 100 yards, I'd go with an Aimpoint red dot optic.  I have one on my M4 clone, and it's superb.  If you want to reach out, go with a low power scope, probably 4x32 or something to that effect.  Ultimately, an AR15 with a 16" barrel isn't a great rifle for reaching out beyond 200 yards or so.  That little squirrel cartridge loses its punch fairly quickly down range, and it's also fairly susceptible to the breeze.  On the other hand, at 7 yards, the round will more than likely over-penetrate, go through the sheetrock, and hit granny in the next room...bad news.  But, to each his own.

If your intent is to use the rifle inside of a football field, go with an Aimpoint.  I would not drop the bucks on a quality magnified optic unless you plan on getting the rifle outside on a regular basis and firing beyond 100 yards.  Also, be wary of quality.  In other words, don't expect a $60 optic to be there for you when you need it to function.  You can't go wrong with Aimpoint, Trijicon, or Leupold.

[Purple Patrick 638]

I was going to say.... 223 can go out way further then 200yds. If I could only have one optic it would be a low powered scope that didn't have to always rely on a battery with back up sights.

 

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[Rob0115 1,105]

~546 yrds or so actually... Almost best of both worlds...

 

OP:Anyway, maybe a Vortex Strike Eagle would fit you best.

 

Do you have one?

[Purple Patrick 638]

Do you have one?

I picked one up from psa for $239. I'll post pics when I get it

 

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[M1Thumb 30]

I'm more or less referring to anecdotal evidence from guys who have served in combat with the 5.56 cartridge over the past 50 years or so.  There seems to be no shortage of stories about enemy combatants not being reduced by the 5.56, either because the round loses enough energy past a couple hundred yards or so such that it fails to fragment upon impact, or because the round was moving too quickly to yaw upon impact and it simply passed through its target cutting a clean little .22 caliber hole with Charlie still on his feet and combat effective.  There seems to be a sweet spot for the 5.56 round, where it has lost enough velocity to yaw, but hasn't lost enough energy to be ineffective.  I've read it's somewhere between 100-300 yards where that round is pretty reliably devastating.  Again, this is just based upon what I've read from guys who actually used these rifles on a two-way range.

Also, I didn't mean to make this a cartridge debate, so I apologize if it comes across that way.  At the end of the day, I don't want to be hit by a 5.56 at any range.  However, I'd much rather be hit by a 5.56 than a .308 or a 30-06.  As per my signature, I own an M4 clone, and it's a cool little rifle.  Very accurate in still weather.  From a ballistics standpoint, I'd never rely on it to defend myself unless it was the only rifle within reach.  But as a kind of "do all" rifle, if you were to only ever buy or build one rifle, an AR15 in 5.56 is a damned solid choice.

[Shocker 150]

I picked one up from psa for $239. I'll post pics when I get it

 

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That's a smokin' price, I thought I got a great deal at $260

 

Anyway, I put a throw lever on mine for quick switches from 1x - 6x and that worked well for my last carbine match. At 1x the eye relief is quite flexible and you can keep both eyes open comfortably.

[Shane45 807]

M1Thumb, combat effectiveness practically has little relevance once you cross the boundary over to the civilian side. We aren't constrained by the Hague. I can use whatever ammo I want. There is a huge difference in the performance of military ball ammo and the tactical ammo available to the civilian market. Additionally testing has proven, repeatedly, that 5.56 is actually excellent at not over penetrating. Many tests have shown it way ahead of even most handgun calibers in that regard.

[Shane45 807]

To the op, a consideration. Since SHTF is a stated concern. Can you ID a target, friend or foe at 100 yds? I can hit a lot farther than 100 with a RDS. But I can NOT discern much intel at 100 or greater with a red dot. Also, something often overlooked, lighting conditions. On a nice sunny day with the sun directly overhead, indeed I can hit easily with a red dot. But change that to bad conditions or the sun being in front of you casting a lot of shadows towards you, at least for me, that greatly reduces the effective range of my RDS. With magnification, I can cut through those lighting issues.

 

Shane

[Vlad G 345]

Shane is really onto something here. The 1-4 and 1-6x scopes available in the last few years have dramatically changed how I think about optics. 

 

For the money spend on a quality RDS you can now get some extremely capable low power scopes. Some of them come with illumination that can be reasonably compared with some of the brightest RDS's although often a a bit higher price. 

 

The flexibility of this new breed of scopes is worth it to my mind. Yes they can be a bit more expensive then a RDS for the same 1x performance. Yes they are heavier. Some may be more fragile, but many are built like tanks. 

 

For me, unless I'm looking at building a very light rifle, I'll spend a bit more on one of the more capable low power scopes as they fit both niches.  

[bhunted 887]

Do you have one?

Yes

 

 

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[raz-0 1,259]

The 1-4/1-6 scopes are incredibly versatile. Red dots are fast and (mostly) forgiving. 

 

One of the things left out is that you can set up a rifle with a dot that can be used more or less the same by anyone who picks it up aside from astigmatism. With magnified optics, the fit of the rifle to shooter and position of optics has to be much more similar. Then you bring in diopter, so unless everyone is corrected to 20-20 and fit's the rifle the same, sharing is more problematic. 

 

Then there's the issue of practice. Will you have to shoot from odd positions. The red dot is much more forgiving for that. When it punishes you, it's for up close targets and tto a smaller degree than a magnified optic. 

 

The only place I feel a magnified optic has an advantage besides the magnification, is with a reticle that can help make canting more visible. 

 

Also reticle related, people like the reticles with holdover indicators on the low powered optics. They are definitely useful for arbitrary sized featureless targets when the magnification is maxed out, but IMO aren't that big a help in dealing with people shaped targets. inside of the 100-300 yard envelope the dot (and most of the ammo) will be effective in, you can take holdover off of the target's features. 

 

Ok I take it back. There's one more area magnified rules (as well as 1x prismatics). And that is contrast. red dot AR coatings are greensih or greenish blue in color when looking through them. While you may not lose any more light than a reasonably priced magnified optic, in a number of common settings, you DO lose contrast. With a killflash you lose even more contrast, and more light. 

 

Also, under the right circumstances like rain in winter, you will find that ARs REALLY like to vent moist gas out the side of the BCG that seems to want to condense on things in that area. Like dots. The protrusion of magnified optics to the front, and the fact most of them have the front element recessed into the tube a good bit, gets you more time in use before everything is covered in condensation. 

 

Others covered other issues. 

 

My $0.02, if this is SHTF insurance, and you may have to share with family, etc., and practice time and ammo will be at a premium, a good 2moa red dot is a solid choice. With a reasonable budget and time investment, one can get to off hand accuracy where, offhand, CNS hits at 50, head shots at 100, golden triangle area hits at 200 and minute of bad guy at 300 are within reach provided your vision is naturally or corrected reasonably close to 20-20 and you don't have an astigmatism. 

 

That being said, for my gaming gun and 3gun match shooting, I'm probably going to have to switch back to a 1-something low power optic as much as I ahve been liking my dot. 

[Rob0115 1,105]

Yes

 

 

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Thoughts?

[Purple Patrick 638]

Here's a guy over seas with one https://www.instagram.com/p/BEpQTWsy156/

 

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[diamondd817 826]

5.56 effective range is 600yds.

[bhunted 887]

Thoughts?

I like it. I bought it on a whim of shaving off weight from my X95....

I have an Aimpoint Pro on it and was using a 3x magnifier. Between the weight and only being 3x.... I was conflicted. I stuck the Strike Eagle on it and found it pleasing to a point.

I'm not use to the reticle yet. But will keep at it. What I'm going to do is zero in both the AP and the SE. For the most part, the Pro alone will suffice. When I need a little more, I can slap on the Eagle.

 

Note to the folks with eye probs such as astigmatism. I have the same issues. I have what I call, Haley's Comma.... It looks like a comet or like a a comma. Even with my glasses on.

I was able to eliminate almost all of it by dialing back the intensity till its just bright enough to see then add a click. The dot is small, granted, but still visible without the comet look. Also gives you more pinpoint accuracy.

 

 

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[Eric. 9]

M1Thumb, combat effectiveness practically has little relevance once you cross the boundary over to the civilian side. We aren't constrained by the Hague. I can use whatever ammo I want. There is a huge difference in the performance of military ball ammo and the tactical ammo available to the civilian market. Additionally testing has proven, repeatedly, that 5.56 is actually excellent at not over penetrating. Many tests have shown it way ahead of even most handgun calibers in that regard.

 

You beat me to it, Shane.  To add, I was gonna say that for home defense, SHTF, inlaws, etc... Try a soft point 223 round.  I guarantee the 223 critics will have a different opinion.

[M1Thumb 30]

Hey like I said, I definitely would prefer to not be hit by a .223 projectile.  My day would be ruined!  That said, it's not my first choice for self defense.  00 buck and .308 are my go-to's for protecting life and limb.  Honorable mention for my old warhorse Nazi-smasher, but I don't ever foresee myself using the M1 for self defense.  It's likely someone did, though.

 

Back on topic, some posters suggested picking up a 1-4x scope.  I think that's a great idea.  Best of both worlds.

[High Exposure 5,662]

I recommend an Aimpoint PRO for your stated purpose.

 

On the other hand, at 7 yards, the round will more than likely over-penetrate, go through the sheetrock, and hit granny in the next room...bad news. But, to each his own.

Any suitable self defense round will penetrate modern CONUS construction materials at common FISH (Fighting In Someone's House) distances. However, a .223 actually penetrates less, shedding velocity and mass faster than most other rounds, making it less devastating to anything it hits beyond the first barrier it comes into contact with.

 

 

 

[

 

We issue Fed TRU .223 64gr Soft Nose for our rifles at work for patrol and SWAT.

[M1Thumb 30]

Interesting stuff, High Exposure.  Soft points seem to be the ticket with regard to limiting the risk of over-penetration.  Makes sense, though.

[Shane45 807]

M1T, I promise you Im not picking on you. But you raise a concern about over pen in a home environment and then name your preferred goto's which are high risk over penetrators... just seems contradictory. At this time I do believe there are now 308 loads that address over penn but I think they are pretty new to the market. So it may be doable.

[M1Thumb 30]

For in-home self defense, my first choice is the 12 gauge. But again, I feel as though my original comment threw the thread off topic, which was not my intent. My apologies to the OP.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

I have an Aimpoint PRO on my AR, and it's great.  It allows fast target acquisition in the close quarters situations of the many training classes I've attended, and I can be combat accurate out to 100 yards all day, despite my less than perfect eyesight at my advanced age,  

[aambulo 0]

The 1-4/1-6 scopes are incredibly versatile. Red dots are fast and (mostly) forgiving. 

 

One of the things left out is that you can set up a rifle with a dot that can be used more or less the same by anyone who picks it up aside from astigmatism. With magnified optics, the fit of the rifle to shooter and position of optics has to be much more similar. Then you bring in diopter, so unless everyone is corrected to 20-20 and fit's the rifle the same, sharing is more problematic. 

 

Then there's the issue of practice. Will you have to shoot from odd positions. The red dot is much more forgiving for that. When it punishes you, it's for up close targets and tto a smaller degree than a magnified optic. 

 

The only place I feel a magnified optic has an advantage besides the magnification, is with a reticle that can help make canting more visible. 

 

Also reticle related, people like the reticles with holdover indicators on the low powered optics. They are definitely useful for arbitrary sized featureless targets when the magnification is maxed out, but IMO aren't that big a help in dealing with people shaped targets. inside of the 100-300 yard envelope the dot (and most of the ammo) will be effective in, you can take holdover off of the target's features. 

 

Ok I take it back. There's one more area magnified rules (as well as 1x prismatics). And that is contrast. red dot AR coatings are greensih or greenish blue in color when looking through them. While you may not lose any more light than a reasonably priced magnified optic, in a number of common settings, you DO lose contrast. With a killflash you lose even more contrast, and more light. 

 

Also, under the right circumstances like rain in winter, you will find that ARs REALLY like to vent moist gas out the side of the BCG that seems to want to condense on things in that area. Like dots. The protrusion of magnified optics to the front, and the fact most of them have the front element recessed into the tube a good bit, gets you more time in use before everything is covered in condensation. 

 

Others covered other issues. 

 

My $0.02, if this is SHTF insurance, and you may have to share with family, etc., and practice time and ammo will be at a premium, a good 2moa red dot is a solid choice. With a reasonable budget and time investment, one can get to off hand accuracy where, offhand, CNS hits at 50, head shots at 100, golden triangle area hits at 200 and minute of bad guy at 300 are within reach provided your vision is naturally or corrected reasonably close to 20-20 and you don't have an astigmatism. 

 

That being said, for my gaming gun and 3gun match shooting, I'm probably going to have to switch back to a 1-something low power optic as much as I ahve been liking my dot. 

 

Very valid points...I think the 1-4/1-6 scope will be my choice. Thanks!

[Alex V 99]

Good thread. I am playing with the idea of a 1-6/1-4 optic on my go to AR but every time I do the math, I just keep coming back to my AimPoint.

 

The ID issue is a valid one but I can make consistent hits on steel from 200 and 300 yards with an Ainpoint. Hmm

 

My other consern is that not all low power variables are as bright in sunlight as an Aimpoint. Seeing online videos isn't the whole story, I know but seems like the only one which is "as bright" is the Mark6 1-6 and at $2k it's an expencive experiment.

 

My initial thought was a Vortex PST 1-4 to see if I even like a low power variable vs RDS. I may still go that way. I can always sell it with minimal loss of I don't like it.

 

For in-home self defense, my first choice is the 12 gauge. But again, I feel as though my original comment threw the thread off topic, which was not my intent. My apologies to the OP.

Man, you must have some crazy wide doorways if you can maneuver a shouldered 12ga shotgun through them and cut the corner on a corner fed or center fed room... In the dark...

 

I'll stick to a pistol which I can keep at compressed ready and still have an effective firing platform rather than a barrel 24" in front of me which can be easily grabbed by anyone on the other side of the door.

[MacDan 20]

I went with both. Burris MTAC 1-4x24 with the FastFire III on top using the P.E.P.R. mount. They sell it as a package, I got it for under $500.

[ChrisJM981 924]

IMG_0016.jpg

I went with both. Burris MTAC 1-4x24 with the FastFire III on top using the P.E.P.R. mount. They sell it as a package, I got it for under $500.

Can you mount the FastFire III at 45 degrees