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Triggers and CCW

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I was reading a post on another forum that was talking about changing triggers and someone mentioned that this can be a legal issue if you end up having to protect yourself and you are CCW. I have a ton to learn and definitely want to be educated on things like this. Is this true?

 

I guess I would be concerned that if I changed out my G19 connector or did the entire trigger and decided to carry it in PA where I work that this would be a weakness in defending myself in a legal situation if I had to use it.

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If the final trigger pull weight is at or below the factory recommended minimum you're good to go. Note that 'trigger smoothness' and 'trigger weight' are two different things.

 

If you put in a trigger with a lighter-than-recommended weight, there might be an attempt in court to characterize it as a 'hair trigger', legitimately or not.

 

Decide if that's worth it. Refer to Massad Ayoob for more detailed info on why. See his blog here. There are numerous threads on this topic.

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If the final trigger pull weight is at or below the factory recommended minimum you're good to go. Note that 'trigger smoothness' and 'trigger weight' are two different things.

 

If you put in a trigger with a lighter-than-recommended weight, there might be an attempt in court to characterize it as a 'hair trigger', legitimately or not.

 

Decide if that's worth it. Refer to Massad Ayoob for more detailed info on why. See his blog here. There are numerous threads on this topic.

Just so happens that is the forum I saw this bit of info. It wasn't in HIS forum, but another forum on that site. I didn't realize he had a forum on there. Thank you!

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First of all, if you find yourself in a post shooting situation where your trigger pull is in question you're already in some kind of trobule.

 

Way too many shooters confuse smooth and light when it comes to triggers as 45Doll pointed out. Smooth is way more important.

 

You can build your muscles in your fingers, hand, and arm to contend with any reasonably heavy trigger pull. SD shooting is not a "game". The 9mm Glocks I have all have the NY 1 8lb trigger that was required by the agency I worked for. I shoot them as well as a Glock with a 5lb trigger. I really dont find tye 12lb NY2 trigger as a seriuos detriment to my shooting. If I was using one for a game gun I'd go to a lighter trigger. Not stupidly light. If a couple of pounds in trigger pull drastically changes your performance you're doing something else wrong.

 

I have no problem shooting DA revolvers. Mine have mostly been smoothed out by use.

 

I agree with Ayoob. Smooth out all you want but keep that trigger stock weight.

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Once you get to court with an overzealous prosecutor then all things rational are out the window. Ayoob (and others) want you to keep your defensive gun as manufactured. This includes things as silly as a skull on the back plate. The prosecutor closes to the jury and says

 

........ Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The perpetrator was so intent on killing a person he lowered the trigger weight from what the manufacturer thinks is safe to an unsafe 'hair' trigger. His guns even had a skull emblazoned on the back plate......

 

It can be a nasty world so why make it any easier for the anti-2a prosecutor. 

 

I know it is all low probability but for a defensive gun it is safer to just leave it stock.

 

The Glock armorer's course has the same admonitions. In a police shooting they are going to thoroughly investigate everything. They want the gun to be strictly stock.

 

The lawyer/shooter Andrew Branca in his book and source "The Law of Self Defense" teaches the same (he btw graduated from Ayoob's course decades ago).

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First of all, if you find yourself in a post shooting situation where your trigger pull is in question you're already in some kind of trobule.

 

Way too many shooters confuse smooth and light when it comes to triggers as 45Doll pointed out. Smooth is way more important.

 

You can build your muscles in your fingers, hand, and arm to contend with any reasonably heavy trigger pull. SD shooting is not a "game". The 9mm Glocks I have all have the NY 1 8lb trigger that was required by the agency I worked for. I shoot them as well as a Glock with a 5lb trigger. I really dont find tye 12lb NY2 trigger as a seriuos detriment to my shooting. If I was using one for a game gun I'd go to a lighter trigger. Not stupidly light. If a couple of pounds in trigger pull drastically changes your performance you're doing something else wrong.

 

I have no problem shooting DA revolvers. Mine have mostly been smoothed out by use.

 

I agree with Ayoob. Smooth out all you want but keep that trigger stock weight.

 

Refer to post 8. In this state you're in trouble even if you are not. I was looking for clarity on this issue. If experts like Ayoob state that you shouldn't go below the stock weight then I accept that. This was something I read on another forum and questioned because I hear how so many change triggers, connectors, etc. I am asking so when the day comes I carry, I help myself out.

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The lawyer/shooter Andrew Branca in his book and source "The Law of Self Defense" teaches the same (he btw graduated from Ayoob's course decades ago).

Everyone who entertains the idea of using a firearm for self defense needs to read this book. The shooting itself will be one traumatic event. What comes after can be even worse, and you need to prepare for that as much as you need to practice with your firearm.

 

I consider the companion volume to be Ayoob's Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right To Self Defense, published in 2014. Some of the material overlaps, but I think Ayoob brings a wealth of street experience to his recommendations. I also found the entire chapter on the George Zimmerman trial to be fascinating.

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Refer to post 8. In this state you're in trouble even if you are not. I was looking for clarity on this issue. If experts like Ayoob state that you shouldn't go below the stock weight then I accept that. This was something I read on another forum and questioned because I hear how so many change triggers, connectors, etc. I am asking so when the day comes I carry, I help myself out.

I read post 8. If it's clearly a good shoot it's not going to a criminal and most likely a civil court.

 

A lot of people say NJ is tougher on SD shootings. There is little to back this up.

 

Yes, the police will investigate and the prosecutors will scrutinize any shooting by LEO or civilian. That's what they're supposed to do.

 

If you wind up in front of a jury there is some question about what you did. A prosecutor would bring up anything that might help a guilty verdict. That's their job.

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The lawyer/shooter Andrew Branca in his book and source "The Law of Self Defense" teaches the same (he btw graduated from Ayoob's course decades ago).

 

 

 

I consider the companion volume to be Ayoob's Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right To Self Defense, published in 2014. Some of the material overlaps, but I think Ayoob brings a wealth of street experience to his recommendations. I also found the entire chapter on the George Zimmerman trial to be fascinating.

Thank you both for these recommendations. I will definitely check them out!

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For those that are interested Massad gives his Mag 40 course once a year at Gun For Hire:

 

http://gunforhire.com/mag-40-massad-ayoob/ 

 

The course is 40 hours (4x10 hour days). The first two are at Easton and involve shooting while the last two are at Gun For Hire and are in the classroom. A great course including both the shooting and classroom and it will give you a better perspective about what to do and not do in a deadly force encounter.

 

Andrew periodically gives his course in NJ. It covered both PA and NJ law when I took it. It also had an option to use his video simulator. You then get an opportunity to be critiqued on how you handle the situations. I don't see anything scheduled for NJ right now.

 

http://lawofselfdefense.com/classes-and-events/

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I get that a trigger mod would be a bogus assertion in court but in a state where you are almost always guilty until proven innocent irrespective if you are right or wrong I personally rather not give anyone fuel to jam me up especially regarding self defense. So I keep my HD firearm bone stock and if we ever get national CCW I will do the same with a carry pistol.

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