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Carry training, holster


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#1 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 11 February 2017 - 02:00 AM

Can you guys recommend a good class on concealed carry that doesn't cost a fortune? I've taken the NRA pistol, had rifle training, plus the Utah class. 

 

Also, I've been collecting holsters for potential carry guns. Is there any reason everyone seems to carry on their strong side and not cross-draw? Seems like a more natural draw to me. Only difference I see is that sweeping is more difficult with strong side holstering than if you have to draw the gun across your body. 


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#2 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 11 February 2017 - 07:30 AM

I am assuming you want training on shooting from a concealed holster and by "class" you mean a shooting class, and not a classroom lecture or permitting class.

If that's the case, look no further - Sights and Trigger:

April 22nd, Concealed Carry, Steel City Gun Club, Bethlehem PA

http://www.sightsand...igger.com/#2838

Joe is outstanding instructor that offers affordable classes with a reasonable round count. I will likely be there myself. I missed his CCW class the last two years.

Now, regarding cross draw v. strong side carry.

I currently carry a Taser in a cross draw holster at work. This is by policy and is one facet of a policy designed to help with weapon confusion - so you don't draw your pistol when you want a Taser and vise-versa. It is a much slower draw and is very uncomfortable.

Yes, with a cross draw rig the potential to muzzle sweep a body part or a partner/loved one standing to your support side during the drawstroke, especially during a high stress situation like the beginning of a gun fight, is one issue.

Another is weapon retention both in and out of a holster - you are able to get more leverage on the gun to keep it in your holster when it's on the strong side and if you are doing a speed-rock or draw to retention engagement, the pistol is vulnerable as you cross your body with it.

In my experience it's easier to conceal with a strong side carry (I carry just behind my hip at ~4:00). A cross draw would be carried in front of the weak side hip (so for me as a right hander that would be 10:00ish) which is harder to conceal.

Also, a drawstroke from a cross draw holster is a much bigger move. Much more obvious, a little slower, less effecient and you have more time off target than on until the completion of the presentation. With a strong side carry, I can point my muzzle in the general direction of my threat from the instant the muzzle clears my holster just by dropping my strong side elbow to my hip. With a cross draw, I have almost 90* of horizontal travel to complete before my muzzle is anywhere near my threat area.
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RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#3 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 11 February 2017 - 09:33 AM

I'll look into the class. X-draw is definitely harder to conceal. I don't notice any difference in terms of speed for me though. I'm not winning any races either way. I see two operations for strong side (lifting or brushing aside clothing, reaching) involving both arms. Just one for cross draw. I also have arthritis that changes day to day. Some days one or more operations required to draw on strong side are uncomfortable to painful. Never for x-draw. 


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#4 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 11 February 2017 - 09:50 AM

Everyone is different. If you have limitations that prohibit consistent strong side carry, than you adapt to what works for you. If that is cross draw, then embrace it and plan for it. Know it's limitations and address them in a fashion that works for you and lets you do what you have to do safely.

Dress around your carry style - pick clothes that let you access your pistol quickly while concealing well.

Spend the extra $ and get some quality holsters designed to carry your gun in the manner you want. Don't just buy a regular strong side holster and throw it on your support side hip. Oh, and it doesn't matter what you do, you will end up with a box full of holsters you tried and didn't like and 1 or 2 holsters that are your "go to" carry rigs.

Spend money on a quality belt designed to carry a gun - don't just go to Kohl's and buy a leather belt. A quality gun belt is worth every penny. It supports and distributes the weight of the gun much more comfortably and keeps the gun in one place. I like Ares Gear for everyday use (Volund Gearwoks is good too) and I have a nice CompTac leather belt for dressing up.

Finally, get training then practice. A few minutes a day doing dry fire will help a lot with efficiency and that translates to speed. But get some training first so you aren't practicing the wrong thing and short circuiting your procedural memory.

I have found that the most important facet of the practical side of carrying a handgun, after basic safety, is being consistent. If you can do the same thing every time, you are 90% there.
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RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#5 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 11 February 2017 - 10:04 AM

Thanks. CR doesn't allow holster draw by mere mortals but there's a lot of dry fire and repetitive stuff that's possible right here at home. I have books and of course the InterWeb for inspiration. I will look into a good belt ASAP. One would do the trick as I never really dress up. 

 

I don't want to be a ninja just competent, confident. I'll settle for safe carry being my strongest skill. 


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#6 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 11 February 2017 - 10:27 AM

Nothing Ninja about it.

There are no advanced gunfighting skills - just the basics executed faster and more accurately than your threat, with a proper mindset dedicated to winning.

If you can understand Boyd's cycle/OODA loop and how to make it work for you, then legitimatley master the basics - recognize, ID, acquire, stance, grip, draw, present, aim, press, evaluate, follow through, process, post engagement sequence - with the ability to consistently execute them to your best ability on demand (That's different than on command), you are set.

The physical aspects of gunfighting are relatively easy. It's the mental part that's hard.
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RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#7 carl_g

carl_g
  • LocationCentral Bucks County, PA
  • Home Range:EFGA

Posted 11 February 2017 - 10:27 AM

If you join Easton fish and game, they have a section where you can practice drawing from a holster and shooting on the move. It's not a huge area but it works. Not sure if that works logistically for you but it's an option.

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#8 Smokin .50

Smokin .50
  • LocationNear Old Bridge NJ
  • Home Range:Old Bridge, Monmouth, Cherry Ridge, on the Farm in Vernon!

Posted 11 February 2017 - 01:10 PM

Thanks. CR doesn't allow holster draw by mere mortals but there's a lot of dry fire and repetitive stuff that's possible right here at home. I have books and of course the InterWeb for inspiration. I will look into a good belt ASAP. One would do the trick as I never really dress up. 

 

I don't want to be a ninja just competent, confident. I'll settle for safe carry being my strongest skill. 

In addition to all that HE said, I'll add this:

NRA training is NOT gunfight training.  If you want to be better than lousy-mediocre then you'll have to come-out of your bubble (your "safety zone") and go to a club that has IDPA or USPSA if you want to learn gun handling and how to draw from a holster.  When that timer goes-off, it feels a LOT different than standing at home practicing dry-fire.  If a league (practice) match runs $20 plus ammo for a non-member, for the cost of a single $200 class you can shoot TEN Matches, and be mentored all of the way thru, including on holster selection and trying others' that they loan you.  So here again, you SAVE $$ on the "too many holsters syndrome" that HE mentioned.  One problem though:  Cross-Draw is usually a big NO-NO at competitions.  I suffer from arthritis myself, so I know what reaching the "wrong way" feels like.  As HE said, adjusting your clothing to fit THE WHOLE PACKAGE (YOU plus the Gun) is the secret to not "printing".

 

I can't reiterate the need for live-fire practice enough:

A friend of mine, a Cop for 28 years, who rose thru the ranks to head his town's SWAT Team, joined the local club I belong to.  He thought he did well for himself till he showed-up for a couple matches.  He turned to me and said, "I THOUGHT I knew how to shoot, but seeing these guys do it so natural and so FAST and still get their hits, I've got a LOT to learn"!  And learn he did!  Techniques that were never taught at the Academy were gleaned from Matches, and then put to immediate use in his next job as a fed.  Bad habits were broken.  Fresh technique was employed and RETAINED.  HE is now the WEAPON, the sidearm is but a TOOL.  He is its' master!  Mindset is EVERYTHING!  And always remember to DANCE WITH THE GIRL YA BROUGHT! 


Being SAFE is my FIRST priority. Bring enough Gun & have all of the Fun you can Handle! Have 10 Ga., WILL knock Pheasants out of the Sky!

#9 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 11 February 2017 - 02:51 PM

In addition to all that HE said, I'll add this:

NRA training is NOT gunfight training.  If you want to be better than lousy-mediocre then you'll have to come-out of your bubble (your "safety zone") and go to a club that has IDPA or USPSA if you want to learn gun handling and how to draw from a holster.  When that timer goes-off, it feels a LOT different than standing at home practicing dry-fire.  If a league (practice) match runs $20 plus ammo for a non-member, for the cost of a single $200 class you can shoot TEN Matches, and be mentored all of the way thru, including on holster selection and trying others' that they loan you.  So here again, you SAVE $$ on the "too many holsters syndrome" that HE mentioned.  One problem though:  Cross-Draw is usually a big NO-NO at competitions.  I suffer from arthritis myself, so I know what reaching the "wrong way" feels like.  As HE said, adjusting your clothing to fit THE WHOLE PACKAGE (YOU plus the Gun) is the secret to not "printing".

 

I can't reiterate the need for live-fire practice enough:

A friend of mine, a Cop for 28 years, who rose thru the ranks to head his town's SWAT Team, joined the local club I belong to.  He thought he did well for himself till he showed-up for a couple matches.  He turned to me and said, "I THOUGHT I knew how to shoot, but seeing these guys do it so natural and so FAST and still get their hits, I've got a LOT to learn"!  And learn he did!  Techniques that were never taught at the Academy were gleaned from Matches, and then put to immediate use in his next job as a fed.  Bad habits were broken.  Fresh technique was employed and RETAINED.  HE is now the WEAPON, the sidearm is but a TOOL.  He is its' master!  Mindset is EVERYTHING!  And always remember to DANCE WITH THE GIRL YA BROUGHT! 

I was originally not keen on competition shooting but you've convinced me it might solve a couple of my needs at once. If you could suggest somewhere that's not south/east of here I'll look into it. A circle with a radius extending from here to P'burg minus the 'burbs. Remember my carry experience is for all practical purposes ZERO and I'm a slightly below average shot (handgun) if what I see at the range is any indication. 


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#10 Mr.Stu

Mr.Stu
  • LocationStillwater
  • Home Range:SCFGPA, EFGA

Posted 11 February 2017 - 04:39 PM

I'm using tapatalk so don't see your location, but I'll be running the Somerset IDPA match next Sunday in Bridgewater.

If you want to come reserve a spot by going to http://somersetidpa.eventbrite.com

Sandy

It is OMFG good

#11 MidwestPX

MidwestPX

Posted 11 February 2017 - 05:05 PM

I have nothing to add to this thread that HE didn't already touch on.  He dropped a lot of quality knowledge on the subject and I suspect I saw him at the last Training Junkies Anonymous meeting...


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#12 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 12 February 2017 - 04:54 AM

I agree that competitions can be great practice, but they aren't training.

Training is what you get while performing repeatable tasks under the watchful eye of a quality instructor. There is a goal and the tasks work towards that goal. Training is also where you learn the why along with the how - which is extremely important - especially when you start linking tasks together into techniques, and applying those techniques towards tactics.

You then take those tasks and techniques - usually in the forms of shooting drills - and repeat them on your own or with others as practice with the goal being the 4th level of achievement***: unconscious competence.

I strongly suggest you obtain quality training prior to participating in USPSA or IDPA type games. Get your weapon manipulations at least to the 2nd level of achievement: conscious incompetence - which is where you can recognize your mistakes and how to fix them.

You often times need to do things a certain way to succeed in the gun games. That way is often times contrived and maybe not the best way to handle a particular situation in a real gunfight.

You need experience so you can take and discard things you may do in competition and recognize them as either a useful skill, useful tactic, or useful technique vs something that is fun and works in the comp, but has no business being employed in a real gunfight.

***Four Levels of Achievement:
Unconscious incompetence - you don't know what you don't know. You are making mistakes but don't even realize they are mistakes

Conscious incompetence - You realize you are making mistakes and can identify them along with corrective measures

Conscious competence - You know what to do and how to do it correctly, but you have to think about it. This takes away from your ability to remain situationally aware and make critical decisions in the heat of the moment.

Unconscious competence - Autopilot. You know what to do, how to do it, and are so comfortable you can do it without thinking. This frees up your intellect to make important decisions like shoot/no shoot discrimination, proper use of cover, ammo management, communication, etc... while you automatically run the gun.
RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#13 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 12 February 2017 - 04:55 AM

I have nothing to add to this thread that HE didn't already touch on. He dropped a lot of quality knowledge on the subject and I suspect I saw him at the last Training Junkies Anonymous meeting...


I though I saw you there. ;)
RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#14 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 13 February 2017 - 09:04 AM

I'm not just strolling into a match, period. That may happen down the road but attaining competitive skills are not my priority. I already have too many hobbies. I'm looking for the basics: specifically for drawing and firing in a manner that is comfortable for me. I'm not even sure which gun I'd carry because I've never carried my current two faves (S&W 686, or some 9mm) except to scare the cats. I want to feel comfortable drawing and shooting from a location on my body that I am comfy with. I know nobody cross-draws, for example, in contests. Until I compete I don't care about that.


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#15 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 13 February 2017 - 09:23 AM

When you decide what you are going to carry, spend $45 and pick up a blue gun for draw practice. They are a huge help in becoming proficient with the tools of your choice safely.
RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#16 blksheep

blksheep
  • LocationOcean County
  • Home Range:CJRPC

Posted 13 February 2017 - 09:40 AM

^^^^This guy^^^^ Great advice.
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#17 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 14 February 2017 - 11:20 PM

When you decide what you are going to carry, spend $45 and pick up a blue gun for draw practice. They are a huge help in becoming proficient with the tools of your choice safely.

I know how you're going to respond but what's the issue with using the actual gun I'll be carrying? I get the feel, the weight, even the first trigger pull.


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#18 Barische

Barische

Posted 15 February 2017 - 08:41 AM

Travis haley, james yeager

#19 fishnut

fishnut
  • Locationflemington, NJ
  • Home Range:EFGA

Posted 15 February 2017 - 09:40 AM

Yeager lol
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What's your plan for tomorrow
Are you a leader or will you follow
Are you a fighter or will you cower
It's our time to take back the power

The Interrupters


#20 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:03 AM

Ok, I figured. So it's illegal or something to make sure a gun is unloaded and aim it safely? Do you guys also dry fire with a blue gun?


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#21 MidwestPX

MidwestPX

Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:22 AM

Ok, I figured. So it's illegal or something to make sure a gun is unloaded and aim it safely? Do you guys also dry fire with a blue gun?

I think the point is to use a blue gun when you don't absolutely need a real one to minimize the chance of a ND.  I use a blue gun for things like checking angles when I don't absolutely need a real one.  Drawing from concealment is a great use for a blue gun too.


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#22 Barische

Barische

Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:30 AM

Yeager lol

Look up the yeager's company's CCW scenario training classes

Found it: tactical response - the Fight - force on Force scenarios

#23 shooter28

shooter28
  • LocationJersey City
  • Home Range:Woodland Park

Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:45 AM

Look up the yeager's company's CCW scenario training classes

Found it: tactical response - the Fight - force on Force scenarios


you must be new here.
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#24 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:46 AM

I think the point is to use a blue gun when you don't absolutely need a real one to minimize the chance of a ND.  I use a blue gun for things like checking angles when I don't absolutely need a real one.  Drawing from concealment is a great use for a blue gun too.

Yeah you probably know 100x more than me about this stuff but IMO practicing alone in my attic with a blue gun is a waste of time. If you follow basic rules it's impossible to have an accident. Make sure the gun is unloaded. Always point in a safe direction. Make sure nobody's around. Guns don't shoot by themselves, the saying goes.

 

Again I ask, practice drawing with a blue gun but dry fire with what? All things being equal isn't pulling the trigger riskier than drawing?


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#25 fishnut

fishnut
  • Locationflemington, NJ
  • Home Range:EFGA

Posted 15 February 2017 - 11:25 AM

Look up the yeager's company's CCW scenario training classes

Found it: tactical response - the Fight - force on Force scenarios

umm you might want to do a little research on him and his company. Personally if taking a CCW class I'd want a teacher that has a CCW permit.

What's your plan for tomorrow
Are you a leader or will you follow
Are you a fighter or will you cower
It's our time to take back the power

The Interrupters


#26 MidwestPX

MidwestPX

Posted 15 February 2017 - 11:40 AM

Yeah you probably know 100x more than me about this stuff but IMO practicing alone in my attic with a blue gun is a waste of time. If you follow basic rules it's impossible to have an accident. Make sure the gun is unloaded. Always point in a safe direction. Make sure nobody's around. Guns don't shoot by themselves, the saying goes.

 

Again I ask, practice drawing with a blue gun but dry fire with what? All things being equal isn't pulling the trigger riskier than drawing?

No offense but that kind of thinking is what leads to NDs.  I consider myself a pretty seasoned handler of firearms.  A couple years ago, I was clearing a Glock to do some weapon manipulation drills.  I racked the slide and had the trigger halfway depressed when I realized that I had neglected to strip the mag and all I had done was chambered the next round.  My gun was pointed in a safe direction but I was about two pounds from having a ND.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating using blue guns exclusively.  I dry fire with a real firearm because I don't have an inert alternative.  I also practice my presentation with a real gun because I have aftermarket sights on my primary handgun that are different from a blue gun.  But I use a blue gun whenever/wherever I can as risk mitigation.


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#27 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:44 PM

No offense but that kind of thinking is what leads to NDs.  I consider myself a pretty seasoned handler of firearms.  A couple years ago, I was clearing a Glock to do some weapon manipulation drills.  I racked the slide and had the trigger halfway depressed when I realized that I had neglected to strip the mag and all I had done was chambered the next round.  My gun was pointed in a safe direction but I was about two pounds from having a ND.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating using blue guns exclusively.  I dry fire with a real firearm because I don't have an inert alternative.  I also practice my presentation with a real gun because I have aftermarket sights on my primary handgun that are different from a blue gun.  But I use a blue gun whenever/wherever I can as risk mitigation.

Bad gun handling practices, not mind waves, cause NDs. If you'd have dropped the mag, racked the slide a few times, checked the chamber, and had your finger off the trigger as you were supposed to you wouldn't have a story to tell. Rounds don't jump into guns, chamber themselves, and force your finger into the trigger guard. There is almost no amount of bad luck or mindlessness that will get you in trouble if you just follow those rules.

 

IMO blue guns have a place, especially in teaching environments, where the form and function of the thing you're holding in your hand doesn't matter. You don't need your Glock in condition zero (evidently a fetish among certain gun owners) to demonstrate good and bad muzzle discipline, for example. Since weight and feel are critical to drawing from a holster I'll go out on a limb and say that blue gun training is close to worthless for holster draw training except at the very very earliest stages. 


NRA, NJ2AS, NJARPC, Lamination Society of America

#28 Barische

Barische

Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:55 PM

umm you might want to do a little research on him and his company. Personally if taking a CCW class I'd want a teacher that has a CCW permit.


Latest news say ccw got restored.. watch the fight video though

#29 Barische

Barische

Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:56 PM

You can get airsoft pistol and sticky target.
You can practice actual
Draw n shoot

#30 MidwestPX

MidwestPX

Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:02 PM

Bad gun handling practices, not mind waves, cause NDs. If you'd have dropped the mag, racked the slide a few times, checked the chamber, and had your finger off the trigger as you were supposed to you wouldn't have a story to tell. Rounds don't jump into guns, chamber themselves, and force your finger into the trigger guard. There is almost no amount of bad luck or mindlessness that will get you in trouble if you just follow those rules.

 

IMO blue guns have a place, especially in teaching environments, where the form and function of the thing you're holding in your hand doesn't matter. You don't need your Glock in condition zero (evidently a fetish among certain gun owners) to demonstrate good and bad muzzle discipline, for example. Since weight and feel are critical to drawing from a holster I'll go out on a limb and say that blue gun training is close to worthless for holster draw training except at the very very earliest stages. 

My point is, why not use an inert gun whenever possible when whatever it is you're doing isn't compromised by the use of proxy? 


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