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Carry training, holster


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#31 fishnut

fishnut
  • Locationflemington, NJ
  • Home Range:EFGA

Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:05 PM

Latest news say ccw got restored.. watch the fight video though

not sure about what fight video your talking about, the one where he could not drive a stick in during an ambush? Regardless there is a ton of videos of him doing and or saying stupid shit. There is a ton of other very creditable instructors to get training from. Personally I wouldn't go to a free Yager class.
  • High Exposure likes this

What's your plan for tomorrow
Are you a leader or will you follow
Are you a fighter or will you cower
It's our time to take back the power

The Interrupters


#32 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:20 PM

My point is, why not use an inert gun whenever possible when whatever it is you're doing isn't compromised by the use of proxy? 

Exactly, which is why holster draw training with a blue gun is like kissing your sister. Your own sister, that is. 


NRA, NJ2AS, NJARPC, Lamination Society of America

#33 Barische

Barische

Posted 15 February 2017 - 02:47 PM

not sure about what fight video your talking about, the one where he could not drive a stick in during an ambush? Regardless there is a ton of videos of him doing and or saying stupid shit. There is a ton of other very creditable instructors to get training from. Personally I wouldn't go to a free Yager class.


https://youtu.be/oeJe1K-Nlzk

Looked very interesting.

I really want to take a class from travis haley or costa

#34 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 16 February 2017 - 01:03 AM

I know how you're going to respond but what's the issue with using the actual gun I'll be carrying? I get the feel, the weight, even the first trigger pull.

I had a well thought out and written response, but my phone ate it so here is the shortened stream-of-consciousness version:

 

Basically, every time you manipulate a real gun you are giving Murphy a chance to ram it in you from behind. A very good friend and pretty well known trainer used to say "Every time you hand someone a real gun their IQ drops 50 points". Its true. The more training you can conduct with an inert training gun (SIRT pistol, etc...) or blue gun, the safer and the better.

 

No one ever gets shot unintentionally with a loaded gun. Its always, "It was unloaded I swear". Unloaded guns put more holes in furniture, TVs. walls, mirrors, and people than you care to count. Familiarity breeds complacency, and complacency breeds contempt. You are practicing drawing to your sights with your unloaded gun. Your doorbell rings. You think, that's weird, no one is supposed to come over today and it is too early for the UPS guy. So you load up, holster up, cover up and check the door. It was your neighbor, your garbage can blew down the street and they brought it back for you. Nice neighbor. They leave and you go back to practice. Did you remember to unload your gun?

 

Yes, there are times when a real gun, that is verified to be unloaded, is indicated for practicing a certain skill. But that is not always. Right tool for the right job. Break your practice up into bite size chunks. When you are practicing a simple draw stroke from a new holster - Blue gun. When you are practicing trigger control or sight picture with a new gun, use the gun. Be realistic with what you are practicing, focus on it in parts, and use the right training aid.

 

For stationary dry fire practice, sure use your gun. Make sure you have a safe backstop that will stop the round fired by the gun you are training with. Will the walls of your attic stop the round your gun fires? If not, maybe move to the basement. Triple check there is no ammo in it. Remove all ammo and magazines from your training environment. Verify your gun is unloaded again. If possible have someone else - wife, kid, training partner - verify that the weapon is clear, safe, and empty. Then conduct your dry fire practice. You should be conducting 2 dozen no shoots for every shoot if you are incorporating dry fire practice into draw practice. Don't create an engram of draw to fire. They should be two independent acts - Draw process the threat then shoot, not draw and shoot.

 

Be careful you are not creating training scars with your dry fire practice. There should be a mental reset point after your presentation where you stop practicing prior to returning the gun to your holster. Then get back in practice mode for your next draw. Don't make coming off target, racking the slide and non-nonchalantly returning the gun to the holster a memorized procedure and part of your draw stroke.  Contrary to popular belief, no one "rises to the occasion" in a deadly force encounter. You will revert to your most permanent training without thinking.

 

For everything else, use a blue gun. I do 90% of my draw and presentation training with a blue gun. I conduct 100% of my movement and flow drills that don't require a live fire component with a  blue gun. If I am practicing movement through my house, evaluating angles, positions of dominance, etc... I can not be sure of my backstop and beyond. I use a blue gun.

 

By your own admission, you are starting from scratch here. Use a blue gun and you can concentrate 100% on the task at hand - the draw stroke - and not worry about the condition of the gun.

 

You want to get a quick 10 minute practice session on and don't want to run through a 15 minute safety routine, use a blue gun and you have nothing to worry about.

 

They come in handy and cost less than a lifetime of the wife complaining about that one time you got the loud noise in the house.

 

Oh, and if you are conducting any practice where you are pointing real guns at people, even if unloaded, you are wrong. There are valid reasons to get a sight picture on a real live human, again, that is what Blue guns, Sims/UTMs, and inert training guns are for.

 

I'm not going to touch on the Yeager bullshit. I'm just going to say: Barische, No. Those scenarios were all no win. You don't learn anything that way - It is tactical band camp for wannabes. Alright fine, Yeager is a douche. There. I said it.


  • fishnut and MidwestPX like this
RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#35 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 16 February 2017 - 11:50 AM

I had a well thought out and written response, but my phone ate it so here is the shortened stream-of-consciousness version:

 

Basically, every time you manipulate a real gun you are giving Murphy a chance to ram it in you from behind. A very good friend and pretty well known trainer used to say "Every time you hand someone a real gun their IQ drops 50 points". Its true. The more training you can conduct with an inert training gun (SIRT pistol, etc...) or blue gun, the safer and the better.

 

No one ever gets shot unintentionally with a loaded gun. Its always, "It was unloaded I swear". Unloaded guns put more holes in furniture, TVs. walls, mirrors, and people than you care to count. Familiarity breeds complacency, and complacency breeds contempt. You are practicing drawing to your sights with your unloaded gun. Your doorbell rings. You think, that's weird, no one is supposed to come over today and it is too early for the UPS guy. So you load up, holster up, cover up and check the door. It was your neighbor, your garbage can blew down the street and they brought it back for you. Nice neighbor. They leave and you go back to practice. Did you remember to unload your gun?

 

Yes, there are times when a real gun, that is verified to be unloaded, is indicated for practicing a certain skill. But that is not always. Right tool for the right job. Break your practice up into bite size chunks. When you are practicing a simple draw stroke from a new holster - Blue gun. When you are practicing trigger control or sight picture with a new gun, use the gun. Be realistic with what you are practicing, focus on it in parts, and use the right training aid.

 

For stationary dry fire practice, sure use your gun. Make sure you have a safe backstop that will stop the round fired by the gun you are training with. Will the walls of your attic stop the round your gun fires? If not, maybe move to the basement. Triple check there is no ammo in it. Remove all ammo and magazines from your training environment. Verify your gun is unloaded again. If possible have someone else - wife, kid, training partner - verify that the weapon is clear, safe, and empty. Then conduct your dry fire practice. You should be conducting 2 dozen no shoots for every shoot if you are incorporating dry fire practice into draw practice. Don't create an engram of draw to fire. They should be two independent acts - Draw process the threat then shoot, not draw and shoot.

 

Be careful you are not creating training scars with your dry fire practice. There should be a mental reset point after your presentation where you stop practicing prior to returning the gun to your holster. Then get back in practice mode for your next draw. Don't make coming off target, racking the slide and non-nonchalantly returning the gun to the holster a memorized procedure and part of your draw stroke.  Contrary to popular belief, no one "rises to the occasion" in a deadly force encounter. You will revert to your most permanent training without thinking.

 

For everything else, use a blue gun. I do 90% of my draw and presentation training with a blue gun. I conduct 100% of my movement and flow drills that don't require a live fire component with a  blue gun. If I am practicing movement through my house, evaluating angles, positions of dominance, etc... I can not be sure of my backstop and beyond. I use a blue gun.

 

By your own admission, you are starting from scratch here. Use a blue gun and you can concentrate 100% on the task at hand - the draw stroke - and not worry about the condition of the gun.

 

You want to get a quick 10 minute practice session on and don't want to run through a 15 minute safety routine, use a blue gun and you have nothing to worry about.

 

They come in handy and cost less than a lifetime of the wife complaining about that one time you got the loud noise in the house.

 

Oh, and if you are conducting any practice where you are pointing real guns at people, even if unloaded, you are wrong. There are valid reasons to get a sight picture on a real live human, again, that is what Blue guns, Sims/UTMs, and inert training guns are for.

 

I'm not going to touch on the Yeager bullshit. I'm just going to say: Barische, No. Those scenarios were all no win. You don't learn anything that way - It is tactical band camp for wannabes. Alright fine, Yeager is a douche. There. I said it.

Very well thought out response. Thanks.

 

Since getting involved in this hobby in 2011 or thereabouts I've seen and heard a lot of stuff about safety. Some of it - like this issue - puzzles me. Someone should write a book. It would be part research, part practice, part standup comedy. 

 

For example, a good number of people in this forum and elsewhere believe in carrying a semi-auto in condition zero. The Glockenspiels post numerous videos on Youtube explaining how their ugly plastic guns that sound like toys when you rack the slide actually have numerous safeties, not none as the company itself advertises. Depending on how many thought processes and "muscle memories" qualify as honest-to-god safeties, the number usually mentioned is 2, 3, or 4. 

 

Yet there is good justification for claiming that condition zero is for combat, where risks of inadvertent discharges are outweighed by the risk of someone popping in out of nowhere and shooting you. Israeli soldiers, wimps down to the very last one, allegedly carry in condition 3 unless they're specifically in a shooting situation (i.e. combat). Yet a whole body of work exists out there to justify condition zero for everyday carry. 

 

I won't even mention here the woman whose 1 year old shot her dead in Walmart, or the guy who killed the FD intern a couple of months ago. Oh I just did.

 

"You need consistency between the first and subsequent shots, whether that be single or double action," they say. That's how they counter the argument that for decades all sorts of people carried revolvers, in condition 2 (IMO the best compromise between safety and preparedness). 

 

I'd lay you 3:1 odds in a money bet that 95% of accidental discharges, injuries, property damage, and deaths are a result of carrying in condition zero, and that less than 1% result from individuals using an actual gun, responsibly, for practicing holster draw. I'll even go out on a limb here and propose that a couple of hundred homicides (out of 11,000) and a thousand suicides (21,000) are facilitated by that sweet, crisp feather-like pull that so many gun owners crave. And here's something to consider: of the many tens of thousands of crimes thwarted by a gun-carrying victim how many do you think got through safely because they carried in condition zero?

 

The point here is the gross inconsistency, the disconnect between passion for the ritualized ("always use a blue gun when...") and what I view as marketing messages pushed by the gun industry and repeated with religious fervor, as if Jesus Christ had written them in a cloud. The notion that somehow a gun can be significantly more dangerous to bad guys but not significantly more dangerous to yourself and everyone around you is preposterous.

 

If you always empty and safety check your gun it will always be safe, even if your IQ drops to toaster levels, even if you're dead drunk on LSD, even if you dry fire in a room where you're surrounded with tens of thousands of rounds stacked on the shelves in open view three feet away, even, realistically (god forbid) if you point it at your head and pull the trigger. If you don't follow those safety procedures your gun is never 100% safe no matter what other safety protocols you follow. 

 

So much for tips on where to get CC training.


NRA, NJ2AS, NJARPC, Lamination Society of America

#36 fishnut

fishnut
  • Locationflemington, NJ
  • Home Range:EFGA

Posted 16 February 2017 - 05:13 PM

The very first post from HE gave you a great semi local course to take what more do you want?
  • Purple Patrick likes this

What's your plan for tomorrow
Are you a leader or will you follow
Are you a fighter or will you cower
It's our time to take back the power

The Interrupters


#37 Old Glock guy

Old Glock guy
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge/GFH/Thunder Mountain

Posted 16 February 2017 - 05:48 PM

Great posts HE and Newtonian.

 

Couple of things I would like to add.  Get a SIRT pistol for dry fire training.  It gives you better feedback, makes it more fun, and totally eliminates the possibility of an ND.  Yes, they are somewhat expensive, but so is everything else in this way of life that we all embrace.

 

Newtonian, I agree that one needs to assess the value of being in condition zero vs. the possibility of doing harm.  Having thought a lot about it,  I have decided that for me, when I carry I want to have a round chambered, so that if a threat presents itself, I will be ready to defend.  From what I've seen, it's often tough enough to bring a gun into action, without having to take additional time to rack the slide.

 

OTOH, I keep my guns at home with an empty chamber, safety on, in what is referred to as "cruiser safe" condition (at least for shotguns).   I believe that most break-in scenarios would probably allow time to chamber a round, vs. the possibility of a trigger getting caught on a slipcover or some such thing.  I believe keeping home guns in a holster would even further minimize the chances of that unlikely event.  



#38 MidwestPX

MidwestPX

Posted 16 February 2017 - 06:31 PM

Great posts HE and Newtonian.

 

Couple of things I would like to add.  Get a SIRT pistol for dry fire training.  It gives you better feedback, makes it more fun, and totally eliminates the possibility of an ND.  Yes, they are somewhat expensive, but so is everything else in this way of life that we all embrace.

 

Newtonian, I agree that one needs to assess the value of being in condition zero vs. the possibility of doing harm.  Having thought a lot about it,  I have decided that for me, when I carry I want to have a round chambered, so that if a threat presents itself, I will be ready to defend.  From what I've seen, it's often tough enough to bring a gun into action, without having to take additional time to rack the slide.

 

OTOH, I keep my guns at home with an empty chamber, safety on, in what is referred to as "cruiser safe" condition (at least for shotguns).   I believe that most break-in scenarios would probably allow time to chamber a round, vs. the possibility of a trigger getting caught on a slipcover or some such thing.  I believe keeping home guns in a holster would even further minimize the chances of that unlikely event.  

Time isn't the only factor.  You need a second hand to efficiently rack the slide.  You don't have that second hand if someone is close to enough to grab your belt buckle and fight you for your gun (which is where a small, fixed blade knife comes out but that's a whole other bag of cats).


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#39 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:26 PM

Newtonian, looks like you got it all figured out. Good luck on your journey brother.
RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#40 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:27 PM

Whenever i get into this discussion the subject of condition 2, round chambered hammer down, never comes up. Call me a pussy but all my defense semi-autos (except 4 my unfired Tokarev) have a decocker. They can be carried in condition 0,1,2,3. If and when, the heavy DA first pull is my safety. If at some pont i find myself in Fallujah on Ramadan i can carry in zero, or anywhere in between.

Condition 2 doesnt require 2 hands. You really have to screw up to shoot yourself while unholstering, even if your finger automatically goes into the trigger guard. Forget about a 2 year old firing it. It's basically a revolver on the first critical shot. In return a healthy adult loses about a quarter of a second in response time. Probably more for me because of my shit arthritis.

I've shot many mags in da only on all my guns that allow it. Very comparable accuracy to sa.

Great posts HE and Newtonian.
 
Couple of things I would like to add.  Get a SIRT pistol for dry fire training.  It gives you better feedback, makes it more fun, and totally eliminates the possibility of an ND.  Yes, they are somewhat expensive, but so is everything else in this way of life that we all embrace.
 
Newtonian, I agree that one needs to assess the value of being in condition zero vs. the possibility of doing harm.  Having thought a lot about it,  I have decided that for me, when I carry I want to have a round chambered, so that if a threat presents itself, I will be ready to defend.  From what I've seen, it's often tough enough to bring a gun into action, without having to take additional time to rack the slide.
 
OTOH, I keep my guns at home with an empty chamber, safety on, in what is referred to as "cruiser safe" condition (at least for shotguns).   I believe that most break-in scenarios would probably allow time to chamber a round, vs. the possibility of a trigger getting caught on a slipcover or some such thing.  I believe keeping home guns in a holster would even further minimize the chances of that unlikely event.


NRA, NJ2AS, NJARPC, Lamination Society of America

#41 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 16 February 2017 - 11:00 PM

When did we get into conditions of readiness?

Don't carry in condition 3. It's dumb.

If your gun is capable of condition two carry, carry in condition two. If you have decocker, and your pistol is not designed to be carried "cocked and locked" in condition 1, the decocker should be used to safely drop the hammer prior to going back to the holster.

A Glock loaded and in a holster is actually in condition two. The gun has complete cocking and 3 integral safeties are released as you press the trigger.

If you have a 1911, BHP, or something designed to be carried in condition one, do so. If you are uncomfortable with that, train more or choose a different platform.

By condition 0 you mean loaded chamber, mag in, hammer back, safety off? Outside of Phillipino hit men, I don't know anyone that carries in condition 0 as regular practice.

In any event, you don't change your carry style based on your threat analysis.

Consistency is the key for CCW. Same gun, same place, same way as often as possible.


RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#42 Heavyopp

Heavyopp
  • LocationMiddlesex
  • Home Range:Clinton - OBRPC

Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:42 AM

Great Thread --  Just sent Joe an email for details about the class -- Thanks



#43 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 17 February 2017 - 10:46 AM

When did we get into conditions of readiness?

Don't carry in condition 3. It's dumb.

If your gun is capable of condition two carry, carry in condition two. If you have decocker, and your pistol is not designed to be carried "cocked and locked" in condition 1, the decocker should be used to safely drop the hammer prior to going back to the holster.

A Glock loaded and in a holster is actually in condition two. The gun has complete cocking and 3 integral safeties are released as you press the trigger.

If you have a 1911, BHP, or something designed to be carried in condition one, do so. If you are uncomfortable with that, train more or choose a different platform.

By condition 0 you mean loaded chamber, mag in, hammer back, safety off? Outside of Phillipino hit men, I don't know anyone that carries in condition 0 as regular practice.

In any event, you don't change your carry style based on your threat analysis.

Consistency is the key for CCW. Same gun, same place, same way as often as possible.

I thought condition 2 was two things happen: hammer goes back, then forth. Condition 1, I thought, was cocked and locked (round in the chamber). Condition 0, you pull and it goes off (no safety). Glocks don't have safeties or decockers, correct? Through various mechanisms Glock "safeties" prevent the gun from firing unless the trigger is pulled. My revolvers have hammer blocks that act similarly but I would never call those safeties. If I hear "but in fact the Glock has three..." or "but in fact the Glock has four safeties" one more time...like most modern handguns it has safety mechanisms to prevent certain accidents, just like my GP100, but under most carry conditions if you squeeze 2-3 lbs worth the gun goes off. My Ruger is still 8 lbs or so away from setting the trigger.

 

This is off the subject. I was asking about CC classes that would teach basic holster, draw technique and provide confidence. For me, at my age, where I live, where I hang, the difference between shooting below-average IDPA (probably the best I could achieve) or above-average CC license holder is currently not significant in terms of preserving my life or enjoying guns, and certainly not worth the time and $$. Maybe that will change but I have enough hobbies as it is.

 

I only brought up this other nonsense when someone suggested a blue gun for holster draw practice, as a demo of how inconsistent gun owners are in my view on the issue of safety and even training. Dry fire your carry gun. Put hundreds of round per year through it. Shoot your SD ammo. Practice drawing from your carry holster. Carry cocked, unlocked, and loaded in public. But use a blue gun in your attic?

 

BTW this is not meant to criticize anyone carrying in any condition they choose, even though I kinda did. 


NRA, NJ2AS, NJARPC, Lamination Society of America

#44 tomk62

tomk62
  • LocationLawrenceville
  • Home Range:OBRPC/TTC/Range 14

Posted 17 February 2017 - 11:22 AM

So this is all new to me and I have no idea what it means, so I looked it up and found this article.

http://concealednati...-they-all-mean/

 

*Condition 0 — Magazine inserted, round in the chamber, safety off.

  • For SA/DA — Hammer is back.

Condition 1 — Magazine inserted, round in the chamber, safety on.

  • For SA/DA — Hammer is back.

Condition 2 — Applies to Single-Action/Double-Action primarily.  This is a magazine inserted, round in the chamber, hammer forward.  For revolvers, it would be rounds inserted into cylinder, cylinder locked into place, hammer forward.

Condition 3 — Magazine inserted, no round in the chamber.

  • For SA/DA — Hammer is forward.

 

HE:  you said

"A Glock loaded and in a holster is actually in condition two."

 

 

I don't see how that matches to this definition above.  I would think a Glock, and any semi-auto striker fired, could only be a 0 or a 3 (well ok, it could be a 1 if it has a traditional safety), as either there is a round in the chamber or not and there is no extra step of taking a safety off.  If a round is in the chamber, all you need to do is click the trigger. Condition 2 is all about a hammer.

 

Just want to make sure we're all talking about the same definitions. :)



#45 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 17 February 2017 - 03:25 PM

Newtonian,

I advocated for a blue training gun for practice. Others agreed. It's smart. It's prudent. Right tool for the job and all that. Most of your non-live fire practice should not involve pressing a trigger, ergo, you don't need a real gun.

There is a huge difference between a gun in condition 1 or 2 secured in a holster on your hip that you aren't manipulating and and repetitive draw practice in this world of distractions.

These guns that are securely carried in a holster in condition 1 or 2 can be drawn safely under stress because you practice. Not the other way around.

As far as trigger press, you won't be able to tell the difference between 4lbs and 8lbs of trigger finger pressure under stress. Besides, it doesn't matter. The average human is capable of exerting 30something lbs of pressure with their hands during a startle response. Unless you make a trigger 40lbs, which would make the gun unshootsble, you are not preventing anything.

What does help prevent an ND is proper trigger finger discipline as you present your gun and move with it. That discipline comes from practicing your draw strike without touching the trigger or completing your draw with an automatic dry fire at the end.

Just because you don't like Glock triggers/safeties doesn't mean they don't work the way they work. Personally, I have seen plenty of revolver NDs at the range with their 8lb triggers (Glock Standard trigger press is 5.5lbs). It's not the gun that causes NDs, it's the loose nut behind the trigger. That nut gets tightened with proper practice following quality training.

Tomk62,

When Cooper came up with this, 1911s we're the bee's knees and his conditions of readiness were designed around carrying a 1911. Striker fired guns weren't a "thing".

According to ATF, Glocks are considered a double action gun. When you press the trigger, you are completing cocking (unlike an M&P that has a 90% pre-cocked striker Glocks are only about 50% pre-cocked - I can't remember the exact %) and firing.

Glock!also has 3 internal and integral safeties that are released upon a proper trigger press.
RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#46 tomk62

tomk62
  • LocationLawrenceville
  • Home Range:OBRPC/TTC/Range 14

Posted 17 February 2017 - 05:06 PM

Glocks also have 3 internal and integral safeties that are released upon a proper trigger press.

 

Gotcha.  The way I interpret it is how much effort (or time taken) the operator has to go through to get the firearm to fire - because that's what matters here right? Can I fire right away, or is there more to do first? A level of readiness as determined by the number of actions to be performed. The internal and integral safeties are released on a simple trigger press, in other words no extra action necessary by the operator. So why would they count for the purposes of categorizing the condition level?  [not to be argumentative and asked in the most respectful way]



#47 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted 17 February 2017 - 09:25 PM

Newtonian,

I advocated for a blue training gun for practice. Others agreed. It's smart. It's prudent. Right tool for the job and all that. Most of your non-live fire practice should not involve pressing a trigger, ergo, you don't need a real gun.

There is a huge difference between a gun in condition 1 or 2 secured in a holster on your hip that you aren't manipulating and and repetitive draw practice in this world of distractions.

These guns that are securely carried in a holster in condition 1 or 2 can be drawn safely under stress because you practice. Not the other way around.

As far as trigger press, you won't be able to tell the difference between 4lbs and 8lbs of trigger finger pressure under stress. Besides, it doesn't matter. The average human is capable of exerting 30something lbs of pressure with their hands during a startle response. Unless you make a trigger 40lbs, which would make the gun unshootsble, you are not preventing anything.

What does help prevent an ND is proper trigger finger discipline as you present your gun and move with it. That discipline comes from practicing your draw strike without touching the trigger or completing your draw with an automatic dry fire at the end.

Just because you don't like Glock triggers/safeties doesn't mean they don't work the way they work. Personally, I have seen plenty of revolver NDs at the range with their 8lb triggers (Glock Standard trigger press is 5.5lbs). It's not the gun that causes NDs, it's the loose nut behind the trigger. That nut gets tightened with proper practice following quality training.

Tomk62,

When Cooper came up with this, 1911s we're the bees knees and his conditions of readiness were designed around carrying a 1911. Striker fired guns weren't a "thing".

According to ATF, Glocks are considered a double action gun. When you press the trigger, you are completing cocking (unlike an M&P that has a 90% pre-cocked striker Glocks are only about 50% pre-cocked - I can't remember the exact %) and firing.

Glocks also have 3 internal and integral safeties that are released upon a proper trigger press.

I really did not want to discuss this because it's out of my league but here goes.

 

1. The pull on a glock 19 is about 5.5 lbs. The DA pull on my CZ75 is about 11 lbs. and 4.5 sa. ATF can say whatever it likes. Those are the numbers. 

2. "you won't be able to tell the difference" flies against all the arguments I've heard for carrying in condition 0 vs. 2. "Consistency between the first and subsequent shots." 

3. "You are not preventing anything." How can you say that? In one case 6 lbs causes the gun to fire, in the other it doesn't. 7 lbs. 8 lbs. 9 lbs. 10 lbs. Yikes. 

4. The glock is a modern handgun. They don't go off when they drop. 99.9% of NDs happen because someone's finger was on the trigger. Enough with the three safeties. I read their marketing materials too and have seen the videos. If a round is chambered and you pull the trigger the difference between a typical striker-fired gun and mine is about 7 lbs on the first trigger pull.

 

If that's your style fine. Far be it for me to criticize that form of carry. Just don't say that 4.5 lbs is not less inherently safe than 11 lbs. If it's more dangerous for the bad guy it's more dangerous for everyone else.


NRA, NJ2AS, NJARPC, Lamination Society of America

#48 Heavyopp

Heavyopp
  • LocationMiddlesex
  • Home Range:Clinton - OBRPC

Posted 17 February 2017 - 09:31 PM

Here's the info from the link to the CC class provided by HE way back in the 2nd post --  In case anyone is interested

 

 

There are openings.  Cost is $175.00.  Round count is 400-450 rounds.  Class goes from 0900 to 1700.  You will need pistol, three spare mags (five if you are using a single column gun), eye and ear protection, lunch/snacks/water as leaving the range and returning is time consuming just due to the roads.  Think that pretty much covers it.  If you have any other questions please contact me.


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#49 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 17 February 2017 - 11:20 PM

Again, it really all comes down the the 4 universally accepted rules of firearm safety.

The only way a 11.5lb trigger pull is safer than a 5.5 trigger pull regarding an ND is if you can ensure that when you are startled, when you have a sympathetic reflex reaction, when you have a loss of balance reaction, or flinch with your finger on the trigger that you can somehow magically control your convulsive grip to be over 5.5lb but less than 11.5 lbs. Now, since you will likely squeeze to your capacity in the initial reaction,that squeeze will likely be over 30lbs (barring special circumstance - injury, illness, arthritis, etc...) it won't matter if the trigger press was 0.1 through 29.9 lbs, it will go off.

You said it yourself - NDs happen when you inadvertently, unintentionally, negligently, or accidentally, press the trigger. If you can keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you are morally, ethically, and legally justified to fire (hmmmm... where have I heard that before?) the only time your gun will discharge is when are justified. Simple.

I do see what you are saying. From an academic standpoint with no context or other real life factors, what you says makes sense - but where do you draw the line?

If 12lbs is better why not 13? If 13 is better, 14lbs has to be even more better, right? Well then 15lbs is bestest! Not so fast, you forgot about 16lbs, that's gotta be safer than 15lbs. While you may not be able to tell the difference between a 15 and a 16 lb trigger under convulsive stress, you can surely tell the difference between a 5.5lb and a 15lb trigger when taking a deliberate shot. But, that ow atrocious trigger pull is really nothing more than lipstick on a pig if your able to put 30lbs of pressure on a trigger during a convulsive hand movement due to fear, stress, or reflex, and you have 15lb trigger.

At some point you reach diminishing returns where you may be guaranteed to not have an ND, but your chances of hitting what you are aiming at rapidly diminish.

side note - when I say you won't be able to tell the difference between a 4lb and an 8lb trigger, I meant during a parasympathetic, startle, or flinch response when your hand clenches and your finger exerts 30+ lbs of pressure on the trigger. You will certainly feel a 4lb difference when pressing the trigger when breaking a deliberate shot. That was bad communication skills on my part.

Keeping your finger off of the trigger is the way you prevent negligent discharges*. Not increasing the weight of the trigger press. 4lb trigger, 15lb trigger - doesn't matter.
8AAD93DC-1990-47EC-95B3-6E6B852FAC35_zps

Brother, you admittedly don't know what you don't know and are still learning. Got it. You have some flaws in your thought process about this, but that's cool. You are trying to equate ND prevention, which to you is an increased trigger pull instead of simply ensuring your finger is off the trigger, to a deliberate trigger pull at an acceptable pull weight for a fighting pistol. They are not the same thing and they have different requirements for the desired outcome.

As you put it "More dangerous to the bad guy" = a deliberate trigger pull. A target has been acquired, identified as a threat, processed to be worthy of deadly force. Ergo, I have aligned my sights on my threat, verified my fore and back grounds, deliberately placed my finger on the trigger and started putting pressure on it to break the shot. All done with purpose. All morally, lawfully, and ethically correct to do so. I am ready and justified in shooting this target, I am deciding to press that trigger.

"More dangerous to everyone else" = ND. My finger is on the trigger when it shouldn't be. Something unintentional causes me to put pressure on the trigger, typically pressure measuring well above the trigger weight of most every gun manufactured, until the gun goes off.

You'll figure it out to your satisfaction.

I'm comfortable in my ability to carry a Glock in a holster at my side and not have an ND and I am far from alone in this. That comfort comes from training and practice - much of it done with a blue gun - including keeping my finger off the trigger when drawing and pointing a firearm - notice I said pointing and not aiming. If I am aiming, I am preparing to shoot and my finger is likely moving towards the trigger as I refine my sight picture.

* Following the other 3 firearms safety rules will prevent a lapse of rule 3 from injuring someone or destroying something you did not intend to destroy
  • Boejoula likes this
RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#50 Boejoula

Boejoula
  • LocationEdison, NJ
  • Home Range:Heritage Guild Easton, EFGA

Posted 25 February 2017 - 10:18 AM

Here's the info from the link to the CC class provided by HE way back in the 2nd post --  In case anyone is interested

 

 

There are openings.  Cost is $175.00.  Round count is 400-450 rounds.  Class goes from 0900 to 1700.  You will need pistol, three spare mags (five if you are using a single column gun), eye and ear protection, lunch/snacks/water as leaving the range and returning is time consuming just due to the roads.  Think that pretty much covers it.  If you have any other questions please contact me.

They provide the ammo?


"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under Godindivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


#51 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted 25 February 2017 - 10:27 AM

No. You gotta brIng your own ammo.
RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?

#52 Boejoula

Boejoula
  • LocationEdison, NJ
  • Home Range:Heritage Guild Easton, EFGA

Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:59 PM

No. You gotta brIng your own ammo.

I figured but the way he wrote it had me thinking it was included. If my permits get here in time I may try to get to this class. 

 

The link no longer works.


"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under Godindivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


#53 Newtonian

Newtonian
  • LocationSussex County
  • Home Range:The Gallows

Posted Today, 09:12 AM

Again, it really all comes down the the 4 universally accepted rules of firearm safety.

* Following the other 3 firearms safety rules will prevent a lapse of rule 3 from injuring someone or destroying something you did not intend to destroy

Of course. Problem is that accidents happen and they happen to everybody, particularly the untrained. It's a statistical thing that training can reduce but never completely eliminate. My first handgun teacher laughed when I asked him about the safety on an SW 617. "The safety is the long hard trigger pull." I've subsequently read that 100 times (and I now own a 617 and other revolvers). One of the "accidents" is something getting into the trigger guard, most likely a finger. Except for rare instances of faulty hardware I'd guess that 99.9% of all NDs occur because someone's FINGER was on the TRIGGER. You can jump up and down about the three rules all you like. THat's what human beings do. They put their fingers into small cozy places. That's why we get married.

 

About 750 accidental gun deaths occur each year in the US. 75,000 injuries. Geezus I'm beginning to sound like Mothers Against. I'll bet 90% of those involved a gun in condition 0. To say that, all other things being equal -- equally poor muzzle control, equally stupid awareness of gun being loaded -- a 5lb pull is the same as an 11 lb pull is absolutely ludicrous. Your "under stress" scenario is disingenuous. The blind gunsmith shot himself while he was cleaning his gun. The firefighter in PA was at work showing off his Glock. The black cop in the elevator was straightening out his holster. When you're shooting at someone you definitely don't want the difference between 11 and 5 lbs to be an issue. It is precisely when you're NOT under stress that the 11 lb trigger matters. 

 

The bottom line here: you're saying that someone who cannot trust himself to be alone with an unloaded gun, in his basement, who follows the rules, to practice drawing from a holster should nevertheless carry a loaded gun in condition 0 in public. "Practice with your self defense ammo" but practice drawing with a non-functional piece of plastic that is the wrong weight and feel. "Dry fire is a great training method" but "dry draw" is somehow dangerous. 

 

Blue guns are valuable classroom situations or to teach beginners basic handling. 


NRA, NJ2AS, NJARPC, Lamination Society of America

#54 High Exposure

High Exposure
  • LocationAtlantic Highlands
  • Home Range:Wherever I can press a trigger

Posted Today, 11:07 AM

My first handgun teacher laughed when I asked him about the safety on an SW 617. "The safety is the long hard trigger pull."

Your first handgun teacher was wrong. There have been plenty of NDs with DA revolvers, and if people keep forgetting rule number 1 and 3, there will be many more.

The length and weight of a trigger is not a safety. Knowing the condition of your gun and keeping your finger off the trigger until justified and ready to fire is the "safety".

Again, please stop with the condition zero. No guns are designed to be carried in condition zero.

Yes, I'll bet a lot of NDs are with striker fired guns, but I posit it is because they are the most popular guns out there and there is a disproportionate number of them in the hands of gun owners right now. I bet before Glock hit the scene, 1911s had that dubious title, and before that I bet revolvers were the leaders in NDs.

Like I said before, you got it all figured out. I've only been a student of some of the best instructors of modern pistolcraft and I have been teaching people to shoot and carry a gun for 14 years now. What do I know?

Good luck.
  • Mr.Stu likes this
RIP Pat, until Valhalla

"Therefore since the world has still, much good but much less good than ill,And while the sun and moon endure, luck’s a chance but trouble’s sure,I’d face it as a wise man would, and train for ill and not for good."- A. E. Housman

Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

WWPRD?




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