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Bill S2190: Adjustments to NJ FID Card


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#1 Cemeterys Gun Blob

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  • LocationBig Sky Country

Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:41 PM

Looks like our buddy Fred *One Gun a Month* Madden keeps the bad bills comin'.....

view the bill here > http://www.njleg.sta...500/2190_I1.PDF

From a NRA alert email;

This afternoon at 2:00 p.m. today, Monday December 6th, the Senate Law and Public Safety Committee is scheduled to hear S2190, sponsored by State Senator Fred Madden (D-4), which directs the State Police to establish a “handgun purchaser identification card” which would permit the sale, transfer and delivery of handguns between cardholders and retail dealers only.

This legislation is apparently Senator Madden’s effort to pander to gun owners after his late-night tie-breaking vote flip that resulted in passage of Jon Corzine’s handgun rationing law in 2009. Unfortunately, the legislation does not go far enough and rubs salt in the wound by failing to exempt those who obtain the card from the one gun a month law. Senator Madden has squandered an opportunity to rectify his past actions and is seeking only a partial solution to New Jersey’s antiquated and unconstitutional gun laws.

S2190 does not eliminate the current paper form of “permit to purchase” but creates a bifurcated system run by the State Police in which paper permits must still be issued for some transactions, including private transfers, which cannot be made with the new card. The legislation has other troubling aspects, including use of an undefined, subjective standard to qualify for the new card (applicants must somehow prove themselves to be persons “of good character and good repute in the community in which they live,” a vague standard found elsewhere in NJ gun law that is in need of reform).

Senator Madden is insistent on pushing this bill with little opportunity for consultation and discussion with the National Rifle Association and the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs.

Please contact the members of the Committee and encourage them to either amend S2190 or hold it until the issues and concerns of gun owners can be properly addressed.

Senate Law & Public Safety Committee

State Senator John Girgenti (D-35) (973) 427-1229

State Senator Nicholas Sacco (D-32) (201) 295-0200

State Senator Andrew Ciesla (R-10) (732) 840-9028

State Senator Donald Norcross (D-5) (856) 547-4800


After reading the bill, it's apparent the NJ FID Card will get a overhaul. Meaning, it will only be good for five years, will have a digital photo (like your DL), and I'm not sure if we will still be able to do F2F sales with it.


:hopechange2sp6nv4-1:


UPDATE: Page 3, Paragraph F, Line 42 mentions elimination of F2F sales in NJ.
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#2 Babaganoosh

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:44 PM

Why make and already confusing system more confusing?? Cuz its NJ!
I doubt anyone actually expects that they will need to shoot a lot of people, or that anyone wants to do anything of the sort. It's a gun website. We love ANY excuse to load all of our magazines and handle our firearms

#3 Guest_HuntingPaper_*

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:54 PM

I'm already confused... So, with the card you don't need pp? Still ogam with the card?

#4 e80hydro

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:54 PM

"Meaning, it will only be good for five years"





With a renewal fee of.................... :facepalm:
"They say their settin me free today, mm"

#5 joejaxx

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:00 PM

Here is the interesting parts:


e. Except as otherwise prescribed in subsection i. of N.J.S.2C:58-3, there shall be no limit on the number of handguns a handgun purchaser identification cardholder may purchase from a retail dealer licensed pursuant to N.J.S.2C:58-2.


IE Exemption from One Gun a Month?

(5) No handgun shall be delivered to any person unless:

(a) Such person possesses and exhibits a valid permit to purchase a firearm and at least seven days have elapsed since the date of application for the permit or the person possesses and exhibits a valid handgun purchaser identification card issued pursuant to section 1 of P.L. , c. (C. )(pending before the Legislature as this bill);


IE you will not need a permit to purchase if you have the handgun purchasers id card?


Also the section might just be worded badly but:

f. A handgun purchaser identification card shall not authorize or permit the sale, transfer, assignment, exchange or delivery of a handgun between its holder and any person who is not a retail dealer licensed under the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-2. No such sale, transfer, assignment, exchange or delivery of a handgun shall be lawful unless the purchaser, transferee, assignee, or recipient of that handgun has first secured a permit to purchase a handgun pursuant to N.J.S.2C:58-3.


The whole "OMGZ BAN ON FTF SALES" thing would make sense if they had not included this last sentence. If that is the case why even have that last sentence there? Just a thought... It sounds like they need to reword it.


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#6 Cemeterys Gun Blob

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:01 PM

I'm already confused... So, with the card you don't need pp? Still ogam with the card?


Only changes are;

1) Digital Photo like a NJ DL
2) Needs to be renewed every 5 years
3) Elimination of F2F gun purchases between people

EVERYTHING else is the same.

Still OGaM.
Still need paper purchase permits.
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#7 Krdshrk

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    Really needs to clean his guns...

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:03 PM

So they're gonna try to make it harder on us? Sigh.... this idiot needs to go away.

-Nick
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This is gay.

I'm totally in.

 


#8 tommy3rd

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:06 PM

EVERYTHING else is the same.

Still OGaM.
Still need paper purchase permits.


You forgot one thing...
It still SUCKS!

#9 kenw

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:08 PM

It looks like it's intended to allow walk in sales at a shop, but still requires a PPP for face to face transactions. Not too terrible, otherwise there would be no paper trail for FTF sales.

Seems like this is going to replace the current FID card with a photo ID card? For a small administrative fee? Will people with current FID cards still have to jump through the same hoops all over again?

I wonder if it will facilitate speeding up the PPP process to just a walk in at the PD, since all of the requirements will already have been met with the issuance of the new card.

So many questions. So few answers.
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#10 Guest_HuntingPaper_*

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:09 PM

Seems like with this card you don't need pp, you will only need them to do f2f purchases between individuals. That's not bad.

#11 Cemeterys Gun Blob

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  • LocationBig Sky Country

Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:10 PM

It looks like it's intended to allow walk in sales at a shop, but still requires a PPP for face to face transactions. Not too terrible, otherwise there would be no paper trail for FTF sales.


Seems like with this card you don't need pp, you will only need them to do f2f purchases between individuals. That's not bad.


I'm reading the bill as though it will eliminate all F2F transactions. Is there a section that addresses that?
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#12 BigHayden

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:13 PM

I think some re-reading is in order. This doesn't touch the FPID section of the law. What it does is introduces an HPID, which would replace HPP's for the holder of the HPID when buying from a dealer. If you choose not to get the HPID, it's business as usual (still need FPID and still need HPP's for each handgun you want to buy), but if you opt for the HPID, you don't have to get HPP's to buy handguns from a dealer. If you want to do FTF, it sounds like that would still be done the same way it is now; HPP + COE.

Am I the only one reading it this way?

I'm certainly not defending OGAM Madden, but this wouldn't make things "worse".

ETA: Looks like replies are coming in that echo what I'm reading...
Laws do not prevent a single crime; they only define them.
-Paraphrased from John Longenecker

#13 joejaxx

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:13 PM

It looks like it's intended to allow walk in sales at a shop, but still requires a PPP for face to face transactions. Not too terrible, otherwise there would be no paper trail for FTF sales.

Seems like this is going to replace the current FID card with a photo ID card? For a small administrative fee? Will people with current FID cards still have to jump through the same hoops all over again?

I wonder if it will facilitate speeding up the PPP process to just a walk in at the PD, since all of the requirements will already have been met with the issuance of the new card.

So many questions. So few answers.


The FPID section is still in there. I think this is just a card dealing only with handgun purchases. It looks like this system will exist along side of the permits.


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#14 joejaxx

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:14 PM

I think some re-reading is in order. This doesn't touch the FPID section of the law. What it does is introduces an HPID, which would replace HPP's for the holder of the HPID when buying from a dealer. If you choose not to get the HPID, it's business as usual (still need FPID and still need HPP's for each handgun you want to buy), but if you opt for the HPID, you don't have to get HPP's to buy handguns from a dealer. If you want to do FTF, it sounds like that would still be done the same way it is now; HPP + COE.

Am I the only one reading it this way?

I'm certainly not defending OGAM Madden, but this wouldn't make things "worse".


This is *EXACTLY* how I am reading it!


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#15 BRN169

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:14 PM

Guess if this passes through the Senate and Assembly we finally get to see where Christie stands with the gun issue... Can't wait!
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#16 Downr@nge

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  • LocationThe Planet Mercury

Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:19 PM

Now wehave to PROVE we are people of good character??? This is ridiculous!
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson

#17 kenw

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:22 PM

Now wehave to PROVE we are people of good character??? This is ridiculous!

references. just like we have to do now, every damn time we want to buy something. This makes the reference process only happen once. (as i read it)
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Member: ANJRPC - NRA - NJCSD - JPFO

#18 BigHayden

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:22 PM

Now wehave to PROVE we are people of good character??? This is ridiculous!


It's just one more thing to challenge in court. :facepalm:

Actually, the 2 personal references for each HPP does the same thing. Technically it's not introducing really new, though its wording lends itself to abuse.

ETA: Damn kenw, I have to start typing faster... you keep beating me to the answer. :icon_e_biggrin:
Laws do not prevent a single crime; they only define them.
-Paraphrased from John Longenecker

#19 Guest_HuntingPaper_*

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:23 PM

I'm reading the bill as though it will eliminate all F2F transactions. Is there a section that addresses that?

You will be able to do them the same way you do now, with a pp. If you are buying from a ffl you don't need pp and I guess you can buy a gun from an individual thru a ffl + transfer fee and nics.

#20 BRN169

BRN169

Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:28 PM

Personally I am in the camp of anything short of eliminating the PPP and FPID card and just using the NICS at the point of purchase is unacceptable...
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#21 matt6669

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  • LocationWest Milford, NJ
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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:31 PM

http://www.njleg.sta...500/2190_I1.HTM

read the statement at the bottom

I understand that you no longer need a pistol purchase permit if you buy straight from a dealer but your still affected by nics

FTF's still require a PPP

You can also do a FTF transfer THROUGH a dealer as long as you are willing to pay a transfer fee and a NICS check and then you don't need a PPP

The reason for the bill is b/c us awesome gun owners have requested so many PPP's that it is swamping the state police and this is there way to get rid of the redundancy of a background check and then a NICS check at the time of purchase.

If this passes, it would deffs be a step in the right direction

#22 Z71

Z71

Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:32 PM

here's my take;;; if you get the H.P.I.D card you dont need the P.P if you plan to buy HG's on a reguler basis...
if buying a HG is a one time thing, you can get a P.P without the added expense that goes along with getting the H.P.I.D card...
its both good and bad...the current F.P.I.D. card should be all we need.....
if you can buy a long gun now, why should getting permission to buy a HG be a different prosess..

#23 Cemeterys Gun Blob

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  • LocationBig Sky Country

Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:34 PM

Personally I am in the camp of anything short of eliminating the PPP and FPID card and just using the NICS at the point of purchase is unacceptable...


+1
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#24 BigHayden

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:35 PM

here's my take;;; if you get the H.P.I.D card you dont need the P.P if you plan to buy HG's on a reguler basis...
if buying a HG is a one time thing, you can get a P.P without the added expense that goes along with getting the H.P.I.D card...
its both good and bad...the current F.P.I.D. card should be all we need.....
if you can buy a long gun now, why should getting permission to buy a HG be a different prosess..


We shouldn't need any of it. The FPID and HPP (and if this passes, the HPID) all do absolutely NOTHING. The only check that matters is the NICS at the point of transfer. The FPID doesn't allow you to bypass NICS, so we gain nothing by having it. The same holds true for the HPP/HPID. All it does is makes the process more onerous for legal gun owners and puts a little $$ into the coffers at the same time.
Laws do not prevent a single crime; they only define them.
-Paraphrased from John Longenecker

#25 BigHayden

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:38 PM

Personally I am in the camp of anything short of eliminating the PPP and FPID card and just using the NICS at the point of purchase is unacceptable...


+1

Like I said before, FPID/HPP is of ZERO value for us and exists solely to discourage legal gun ownership. That being said, OGAMadden's bill isn't the worst thing we've seen from the Democrats in NJ in the last decade.
Laws do not prevent a single crime; they only define them.
-Paraphrased from John Longenecker

#26 matt6669

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  • LocationWest Milford, NJ
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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:41 PM

+1

But this bill isn't about FID reform, it's about eliminating so called *private sales*. It isn't *private* if you have to go through a FFL.

And it isn't *private* if you have to use a NJ FID, and PPP's to begin with.


This bill has NOTHING to do with eliminating private sales. Private sales will still be done in the same exact manner as they are done now. The only thing that changes is that if you buy a gun from a dealer you no longer need a PPP you just need this ID card.

Read the bill, and read the statement at the bottom in the link posted above. They even admit that in the PPP with a dealer the process is redundant since the nics check does the same thing as the background check before the PPPs are issued.

#27 kenw

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:43 PM

+1

But this bill isn't about FID reform, it's about eliminating so called *private sales*. It isn't *private* if you have to go through a FFL.

And it isn't *private* if you have to use a NJ FID, and PPP's to begin with.

That's all well and good, but this is still NJ, and the de facto requirement of handgun registration (through PPP) isn't going to go away. As Matt said, this will relieve the burden to apply for PPPs for any but private transfers of handguns, and private sales can still be executed within the system that we have now. It's not about eliminating anything. Private sales are still allowed, and shop sales will no longer require the 30 (60,90, 180) day wait while the state drags their asses issuing PPPs so we can drop in on Tony for a new gun.

If I'm reading it correctly, I don't hate it.

Also, the new card, with whatever endorsements will be required, will possibly become our CCW permits.
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Member: ANJRPC - NRA - NJCSD - JPFO

#28 BigHayden

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:50 PM

Also, the new card, with whatever endorsements will be required, will possibly become our CCW permits.


That's an interesting speculation... FWIW, PA's LTCF law says the possessor must be 'of good character' too. Not the I trust the Dems, but they may be laying a foundation for a quick law change in the face of the SAF federal lawsuit.
Laws do not prevent a single crime; they only define them.
-Paraphrased from John Longenecker

#29 SpecialK

SpecialK

Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:50 PM

this is terrible. I HATE this state so friggin much!!!! It makes me want to throw up that people in this thread are posting "well that's not to bad" This is friggin terrible. All the laws here are friggin terrible. The only laws that should be met with "well that's not to bad' are laws repealing the unconstitutional laws already in place here. The only way they would be considered "Wow that's great" is if the law included rounding up the politicians that voted for the unconstitutional gun laws in the first place and hanging them in public. The politicians that are for these laws need not to just go away or be voted out they are traitors to the U.S. Constitution and should be treated as such.
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#30 BigHayden

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:59 PM

this is terrible. I HATE this state so friggin much!!!! It makes me want to throw up that people in this thread are posting "well that's not to bad" This is friggin terrible. All the laws here are friggin terrible. The only laws that should be met with "well that's not to bad' are laws repealing the unconstitutional laws already in place here. The only way they would be considered "Wow that's great" is if the law included rounding up the politicians that voted for the unconstitutional gun laws in the first place and hanging them in public. The politicians that are for these laws need not to just go away or be voted out they are traitors to the U.S. Constitution and should be treated as such.


I think we're all a little surprised that a gun bill, introduced by a Democrat, in New Jersey, isn't the typical "kick in the balls" law that we're all used to. Some of the original comments in this thread seemed to predict doom and gloom that simply isn't in this particular bill.

Having said that, I'm sure that we all agree with you. ALL of NJ's firearms laws should be repealed for being unconstitutional, but we didn't lose our rights all at once, so we're going to have to regain them incrementally. This bill makes the process of buying a handgun in NJ a little easier for law abiding citizens. Is it constitutional? Hell no. Is it better than what we currently have? Hell yes. It's a step, albeit a small one.

I want to see all of these stupid permits gone; if you need a permit to exercise a right, it's not a right, it's a privilege. Eventually it will all be struck down, but until "eventually" gets here, I'll take any improvement I can get.
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Laws do not prevent a single crime; they only define them.
-Paraphrased from John Longenecker




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