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Im not so sure they "spearheaded" anything... Are they the first to offer a firearm for sale? yes. but the ATF letters have been around for a while now.... They are capitalizing on the situation( i got no problem with that), However it would be important to recognize that literally everything THIS VERY thread pointed out over a year ago was simply confirmed by NJSP... was their "permission" really needed... NO IMO. While people were scared of laws that didn't exist... plenty of people built their own after the information was made public. In fact, this was so black and white that the NJSP simply cited the law word for word. Now its the bickering over if you can build one.... look i didnt need permission to build my rifles from the state police.. so i didn't look for their permission to build a firearm.. the only place i look is the law. What they have done is given the average person confidence they can own one of these... and maybe to a fault. Personally, people are scared of their own shadows around here.... and now that the cat is out of the bag... i wont be too happy in a few years when the state shuts all of this down.

I feel like this thread has gone full circle and its about to go around again since some people arent reading the full thread.

This is bananas. A couple people in this thread know what they are talking about. Almost everyone else is trying to find loopholes in the loopholes based on conjecture, opinion, and personal wishes. BLUF: There are a couple of guiding documents from NJSP and ATF that are posted here in this very thread. They spell out how this whole thing works in our state and define what is, and is not, acceptable when dealing with this “Firearm”. It doesn’t matter if you agree with the guidance handed down from on high. It doesn’t matter what conclusion you reached “logically”. Currently, all that matters is these documents tell you what you can do to stay within the currently accepted guidelines of a specifically configured gun to be considered a “Firearm” and not a SBR, pistol, or AOW while remaining legal in the state of N.J. This is why we can’t have nice things. Also, remind me to never rob a bank with some of you guys.

You can’t put a vertical grip on an AR pistol under 26”. That makes it an AOW. If you take the front vertical grip off, this “Firearm” becomes a pistol under the federal laws. Once it’s defined as a pistol, it violates NJ’s Assault Weapon prohibitions. If you replace the brace with a stock, it becomes a Rifle under the federal law (SBR technically) and that requires a tax stamp federally and it also violates NJ’s restrictions on Short Barreled Shotguns (NJ’s term for any short Barreled long gun) and most likely the evil features list making it an Assault Weapon in N.J. as well. There are lots of technicalities when you go down this rabbit hole. There it is again - the qualifying statement - “I could be wrong but that’s how I read it so far.” You better hope you are right. Build at your own risk.

You know, I’m reading through this thread again and I find it kind of funny. Everyone wants to build their own SBF. Everyone thinks that Troy and Dark Storm and MM are ripping consumers off... Yet everyone has all these questions and no one knows what they can and can’t do. Can I do it like this? Is a receiver a rifle or a pistol or something else? How long does this part have to be? How about that part? What’s Identical vs similar? Can I use a flash hider? What does the NJSP say? I mean the ATF? I mean both. And on and on and on..... 6 pages now of questions and bellyaching. These companies cracked the code and came up with a product that everyone wants, but no one wants to pay for the work they put in to get these products to market and everyone wants their knowledge for free. When the company tries to share the guidance they received, the members get shitty and accuse them of being secretive, or wrong, or worse - liars. Unreal. What is this Arfcom? They pushed almost all of their stock on hand out to dealers. That’s why I didn’t buy one yet. Call around and see who has what.

Believe it or not NJSP has A LOT of gun supporters. If NJSP was anti-gun, these firearms would not even be here for discussion. The issue is not the NJSP but NJ gun laws and anti-gun AG.

Seriously, they’ll probably send the NJSP an email asking if it’s ok to rob the bank. When told “No” they’ll send a follow up email asking “But what if I just take the amount that I currently have in savings. It’s not really stealing you see. I have that much money there already, I should be allowed to take it out if I want.”

Heck, I did that on Rt 31 while messing with a ZL1 Camaro

This won't last long either. New laws to come banning them.

I feel like this thread needs to close, and then Jack or PK90 start a new, closed, thread. All it has is the letter from NJSP and the 3 or 4 points of what this non-NFA firearm needs to consist of to be legal in NJ. Thats it. People can take it for what they want.

Jesus we are not doing this again. Nj requirement: It cannot be a pistol, you wont meet the weight requirement Must fall under the definition of Firearm. Federal requirement (NFA): It must start life as anything other than a long gun rifle/shotgun. It needs a pistol brace(get one with ATF approval) It must have a FVG, so its not a pistol.(MUST BE VERTICAL, the Magpul angled grips DO NOT COUNT) It must have OAL >26" so not to be AOW.

Group buy for better pricing?

Hell Yeah Let's do it

And must it lie flat in the crock pot, or can you ball it up and boil it?

In his search for the made up LCM and Ghost guns, maybe the AG will finally capture this rare creature. Sorry for the blurry picture, but this is the best image ever taken of the Glockness Monster.

These will be in NJ Stores soon. Description 100% MADE IN AMERICA. All MODMAT rifles are made from domestic parts and assembled in New Jersey. Fully NJ and Federally compliant when purchased as a FIREARM. Total OAL 26.1″ w/ SB Tactical SBA3 Brace in closed position CERAKOTE FINISH: Blackened Cobalt, Slate Grey Burgundy Bronze, Patriot Brown or Sniper Green. MM Exit 5.56 V2 Muzzle Brake virtually eliminates muzzle climb while shooting. Designed and manufactured in New Jersey. Has NATO grooves for installation of blast shield or silencer. Ballistic Advantage 5.56 Government Profile, 11.5″ Carbine length AR15, Modern Series Barrel. Machined from 4150 Chrome Moly Vanadium steel with a QPQ corrosion resistant finish and M4 feed ramp extension. Ballistic Advantage .750″ pinned Lo-Pro Gas Block with QPQ corrosion resistant finish. Modern Materiel 10″ ultralight free float hand guard – Full Picatinny top rail and M-LOK mounting in 3, 6 & 9 o’clock positions. Domestic 8620 M16 Bolt Carrier Group and 9310 bolt with QPQ corrosion resistant finish. Flattop Upper Receiver – 7075 T6 forged aluminum with ejection port cover and brass deflector. MM Lower Receiver – 7075 T6 forged aluminum with magwell texture and integrated trigger guard. Magpul MOE pistol grip with extended trigger reach for more precise trigger control. Magpul MOE MVG M-LOK vertical fore grip. SB Tactical™ Pistol Stabilizing Brace (SB3) – provides all of the advantages of a handgun, but with a third point of contact — adding greater stability, accuracy and control. Also includes: One 10/30-round Mission First Tactical (MFT) magazine.

This thread is for documenting the ATF and NJSP letters of interpretation, and citing Federal and State laws. Please keep thread chatter to a minimum and only post references to letters or laws. I will try and keep this thread updated and feel free to post any relevant updates not listed here. Please read the letters in full if you are interested in this. Disclaimer: I AM NOT A LAWYER Below are the required documents and legislative citations in order to assemble or purchase a legal NON-NFA Firearm. This is a collection of results based on Reading state and federal law, and ATF + NJSP documents regarding the classification of Items and parts regulated in their assembly. Please be advised this may not be a complete list of relevant information. New letters can change the status of any lawful interpretation. Firearms are not currently(June 2019) regulated under NJ's AWB. ATF Letter on Stabilizing Braces and how they can be shouldered This article about adding VFGs to AR pistols contains the ATF letter outlining how to construct a non-NFA firearm on pages 2-3 This contains the NJSP letter to the FFLs detailing the legality of the 590 Shockwave and Tac 14. the relevant text is : "Firearms with similar design and structure must fall within this definition of a firearm and must not have been manufactured as a 'shotgun' (NJSA 2C:39-1n) or meet the Federal requirement of 'any other weapon (AOW)' which measures less then 26 inches in overall length. The firearm must also comply with all BATF requirements." Also the NJSP definition of "substatially identical" The relevant text: The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm. We also have the States definitions of: "Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. "Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. NJSP Letter: LINK HERE. From the NJSP: "The New Jersey State Police Firearms Unit finds that the submitted Troy Industries A4 "other firearm" as well as the Dark Storm Industries DS-15 Non-NFA Firearm Typhoon are legal for sale in the State of New Jersey and are NOT considered to be an "assault firearm." This opinion is based upon the two firearms reviewed, however if the design or dimensions change from those samples, it may change the classification of the firearm. ". If you would like to purchase one please contact ModerMaterial https://modernmateriel.com/ Dark Storm Industries https://www.dark-storm.com/ Or Troy https://worldoftroy.com/shop-now/ NO STATE LAWS have been cited or found that require the firearm be purchased complete in the state of NJ. The ATF has opinionated you may assemble one in the VFG letters on Page 2. If your intentions are to build one from a receiver please read the following: The ATF advises all manufactures and FFLS to record the “TYPE” of firearm as accurately possible when completing their required records. To satisfy the ATF, your build receiver cannot ever been classified as a long gun rifle or shotgun by any of these entities prior. To clarify, the ATF is very specific as to how receivers are recorded… and that they are never classified as rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Check with your FFL that they are following this guideline when you pick up the receiver. This should satisfy the requirement for the build in completing a firearm from a receiver, and not a long gun. UPDATE 6/4/19 NJSP have opinion that you MAY NOT build a "firearm" in NJ as a precautionary measure to prevent you from violating laws in regard to assembling assault weapons, or NJ's constructive possession law. As it stands this is merely a precautionary statement to help people avoid violating laws in the assembly of a "firearm". Which suggests if you are able to avoid breaking the laws mentioned in the notice, it is legal to do so. Please keep your firearms assembled at all times if you run the risk of violating NJ's AWB. Make sure you do not have any parts that can be used to readily assemble or modify an existing rifle into an Assault weapon according to NJ Constructive Possession Law. Based on the above information the requirements for owning or assembling a Non-NFA Firearm in NJ: State: more restricting Since pistols are limited in weight, you cannot build one in this configuration. -Your build must contain a VFG, per the NJSP and ATF This will give you “Firearm” Status in NJ Federal: Cannot have stock (Not a rifle), Use a brace either listed in the ATF letters, or one that is substantially identical Your VFG must be vertical, use one that is either listed in the ATF/NJSP document or is substantially identical(Not a pistol)… angled grips don’t count. You must have OAL >26”, since you added a VFG (Not an AOW) (this is a federal NFA requirement)(No NJ Mandate.) Update: 6/5/19 OAL is Measured with a folding brace in the collapsed position, or if the brace is fixed it will be removed and if present the extension(buffer tube) is measured.(Document below) https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/atf-folded-brace_redacted.pdf Failure to meet specific requirements above will make you a criminal. This is not an endorsement for the purchase or assembly of Non-NFA Firearms. The Remainder of this thread is for further citations of the law or ATF NJSP letters that would enhance our understanding of purchasing and assembling these types of firearms. This may not be a complete list of requirements and new updated information could create addition restrictions. Please check and follow ALL Local State and Federal laws prior to any action.

When I first got into shooting in the mid 2000s, I quickly became interested in long range shooting. At that time, the standard recommendation for most shooters was to pick up a Remington 700 Police or a 700 VS and if your budget does not allow that, a Savage model 10FP, both in 308 Winchester. Generally, both of these guns would allow you to shoot around 1 MOA or better with match grade ammunition. In either case however, you were recommended to get into reloading if you wanted to get as consistent results as possible. Once you get above these hunting turned target guns, you were looking at very high end offerings such as the Accuracy International chassis systems or essentially custom guns by well known rifle builders such as GA Precision. Unfortunately, as great as these high end platforms are, they are out of reach for most gun owners. Fast forward a decade and today we find a massive rise in popularity of both long range and extended long range shooting. Most impressive is that you can find plenty of videos of gun owners shooting milk jugs from 1,000 yards to over a mile away with stock guns! So what's changed? I believe there are a number of key drivers which gun owners have to thank for the plethora of options available to them at price points of $2,000 and less. These drivers are both growing demand AND the availability/supply of firearms. From the demand perspective, I think we can thank two drivers for this, YouTube and gun games such as 3 Gun and the practical shooting inspired PRS, which is if you can imagine, an IDPA or USPSA match however you are moving and shooting with a precision rifle, shooting at targets at out at 1,000 yards or more! Fortunately, with all of this demand, manufacturers decided to pour in resources and we now have numerous products at the very competitive price point of $2,000 or less. Best of all, these guns are generally created to be accurate first, rather than being a firearm designed for hunting remarketed as a precision gun. Today, gun owners have such firearms as the Ruger Precision Rifle, the Thompson Center LRR, the Howa Oryx, Mossberg MVP and Savage 110 which use the latest manufacturing processes to produce factory rifles capable of sub MOA shooting (1" at 100 yards, 2" at 200 yards, etc.) The overriding theme here however is that I don't believe this would not have happened if it was not for the "Trump Slump." During the Obama years, manufacturers were able to sell basic $500 AR-15s for $1,000 or more. It was only after President Trump was elected and the fear of imminent gun control no longer drove sales, did manufacturers truly innovate and create such firearms at these very affordable prices. This is of course not just anecdotal evidence but can be seen in the sales data. For anyone who has been reading my "NICS Data" research on Seeking Alpha knows that long gun sales are at decade lows. At the same time, PRS and extended long range shooting is quickly growing. The main benefactor here being "chassis guns." The other major change enabling the success in long range shooting is the mass market appeal of new cartridges such as 6.5 Creedmoor. Why? In the simplest terms, the newer calibers such as 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC, 300 PRC, 6mm Creedmoor, and 224 Valkyrie were designed with different SAAMI specs, predominantly around a bullet with a higher BC (ballistic coefficient) in a larger cartridge with more powder. In short, better bullet, bigger cartridge, more powder giving you faster velocity and a bullet that is far more tolerant of wind. Yes, it is time to settle the debate... 6.5 Creedmoor is an all around better cartridge than 308 Winchester and is quickly becoming the go to norm for gun owners entering this category. After more than 10 years we can start admitting, it is likely not going away, especially as with stock factory ammunition, a shooter can effectively increase their range from around 1,000 yards out to 1,400. Bottom line, are these guns somehow going to put custom rifle builders out of business? No... because there is always that crowd of people who will be looking at a gun that can shoot 1/4 MOA and is willing to pay $4,000 or more on the rifle. If you are happy with .5 to 1 MOA with a gun that you can purchase for around $1,000 and don't need to reload for, then this is certainly an exciting time to be a gun owner. If you have not done so yet, do subscribe and follow my Precision Rifle series on YouTube where we take a look at the latest and most popular precision guns at $2,000 or less!

It's coming. This is why people can't have nice things. I am saying this will be done win under 12 months. +100 without a doubt. Ok, so I stayed out of this for a while but have been on the phone with a few manufacturers and others in the industry who are in direct contact with NJSP and have experience with this elsewhere. I have not contacted NJSP myself. I think this is going to boil down to whether you are going to be right or effective. Yes, you can build your own, BUT you should expect to get hassled and likely charged if you do something else stupid. As per others, NJSP's full intention is that they do not want people building their own and are working on a letter for this. Let's be honest here, THIS IS A LOOPHOLE, expect and treat it as one that can close at any moment and be ready to defend it to the letter of the law, including if need be in court. This is why for 99% of gun owners and folks here on the forum, if you want this... go buy one and carry a copy of the NJSP letter in the gun case because you will be pulling it out, especially if it is at places like Ford Dix/Range 14. And NJSP full expects numerous people who build their own, to get arrested for not following the definition to the letter of the law on such things as OAL, type of foregrip, etc. That is of course until the AG decides he wants to focus on these and will be going to change the definition to include these firearms. So legal to build your own? Yes. Would I? Yes... in PA. lol, no way in hell am I bringing it to NJ. I will confidently transport and shoot a Modern Materiels or a Dark Storm Industries rifle though with a copy of the letter in the case. Having something on NJSP letterhead that says it is okay will improve your lifespan versus trying to argue how your built firearm complies with the letter of the law.

It appears that the driver was recording it.

Here is another collection of letters that I am sure you are aware of. Some are duplicates of your posting. Hmmm. I posted a single link and all the above was populated. If the above is not pertinent to this topic, I'll try and edit out what I posted.

Missed this earlier last week - Congrats and well deserved Nick, almost every rally/event I’ve attended I’ve seen you there.

With Euro gas prices you should probably have a dollar-per-minute-a-meter along with your km/h. When you got back down to 120km/h (or whatever “regular” speed limit is), did it feel like you could get out and walk faster?

#60 USPSA GRAND MASTER EMILY CUTTS, 15, OF TEAM TANDEM KROSS, INSTRUCTS YOUNGIN'S FOR CNJFO YOUTH SHOOT AT UNION HILL GUN CLUB SUNDAY JUNE 23RD. I'm working on a story & Photo lay-out that will probably be ready to post tomorrow but in the meantime I'd figured you all would enjoy a 15 year old instructing a 9 year old. Emily Cutts is a great example of this next generation standing-up! I understand this kid's grandpop is a member here. I didn't write-down his "handle" so I can't tag him correctly. I'll try a reverse-tag on Facebook

We need a @vladtepes sticky guide.

At the federal level, there is no such thing as a pistol with a vertical grip... IF YOU PUT A VERTICAL GRIP ON A PISTOL IT BECOMES AOW IF ITS UNDER 26" OAL. Thats completely incorrect, and the ATF has clarified this.... A pistol with a vertical grip is NOT A PISTOL, it's AOW if its under 26", and becomes classified as firearm if its over 26" So i'm like done with all of this now.. Its been explained 3x over by now.

Oh my freaking gawd. The lack of reading comprehension in this thread is astonishing, even for this place. Let me try to simplify before PK90 has a stroke. Federal law defines a pistol as being designed to be fired by one hand, with a maximum overall length of 26 inches. Therefore, legally speaking, any gun over 26" cannot be a pistol. It is a rifle, shotgun, or firearm. I know a lot of people run around calling their 12" barreled AR's pistols, but those people are wrong, and should be corrected. The presence of a vertical grip, or lack of, has absolutely zero to do with pistol or firearm designation. A pistol with a vertical grip is an AOW (edited for cupcake) . Over 26" is not a pistol, so that rule doesn't apply. Anyone who still doesn't get it, you're hopeless. Just be quiet before you kill PK90.

Length of pull seems to be another thing the ATF is using to classify these braces as "pistol". I believe(but could be wrong) the pistol braces have a shorter length of pull as a rifle stock... that is when measured fully opened per the ATF.

If you change something in the SBFs description as it is currently defined and legal ie: overall length, removal the vert grip, add a stock, etc... you may be changing the classification of “Firearm” to something else. For some definitions of the classes you can change between classes on the same receiver/serial number, for others, once you change the classification once, you can’t go back. This applies to Rifles, Shotguns Pistols, SBR/SBS, AOWs, and Firearms. Just like you can’t build your Rem 870 Shotgun you have lying in the safe into a Tac-14 “Firearm” or if you put a stock on the Tac/14 you bought as a “firearm”, you can’t technically bring it back to “firearm” status legally.

Your pistol would be in violation of the NJ AWB for pistols simply by having more than 1 "evil feature": over 50oz, magazine outside the pistol grip, barrel shroud, threaded barrel, etc. I also saw a mention for length of pull in one of the letters, but I'm not sure if there is a federal law and/or interpretation from the ATF concerning it.

Not in NJ. Not sure what your issue is.

You can put an AFG/Handstop on a pistol with no change in its definition - as per ATF. An AFG/handstop on this “Firearm” would make this a pistol - making it illegal in N.J. based on our AW laws. For ATF Definition purposes: True Vertical Grip =\= AFG or handstop

The NFA Law describes why you can't be below 26". NJ Law mentions making a Sawed-Off Shotgun from a rifle or shotgun, which this is neither.

The NJ AWB does not apply. You are correct. And there is no 26" requirement in NJ, but there is Federally.

we should put a parts list together on here

Quite welcome. And I will say I shipped both ways. Do keep in mind you are supposed to take it directly to the UPS or Fedex center... not one of the authorized dealers... so take that into account. Yes, many do ship from like a Pakmail or another shipping place, but supposed to be at the actual Fedex or UPS distribution place.

First step would be whether his FFL will accept a package from an individual. Some will, some won't. If not, you will have to get your FFL to send it to them. As individual, you also have to send "Air" vs an FFL can send ground in many cases that will be cheaper.

Modern Material does have Govt contracts in NJ. I have personally run their guns and have seen their guns come thru LE Rifle Instructor courses and they are GTG. I wouldn't hesitate to grab their guns. I also have Noveske, Colt, BCM, Spikes and some home built guns. I will tell you they use the right parts and quality control is superb.

Looks like a cylon. “ by your command”

Bottle rocket war!

Just shows all these bills were written before the first round was passed. They have all these ghost written and just waiting.

And Snakes! Joe Dirt: So your gonna' tell me that you don't have no black cats, kick but, or screaming mimis? Kicking Wing: No. Joe Dirt: Oh come on man. You got no lady fingers, fuzz buttles, snicker bombs, church burners, finger blasters, gut busters, zippity do das, or crap flappers? Kicking Wing: No, I don't. Joe Dirt: You're gonna stand there, owning a fireworks stand, and tell me you don't have no whistling bungholes, no spleen spliters, whisker biscuits, honkey lighters, hoosker doos, hoosker donts, cherry bombs, nipsy daisers, with or without the scooter stick, or one single whistling kitty chaser? Kicking Wing: No... because snakes and sparklers are the only ones I like. Joe Dirt: Well that might be your problem, it's not what you like, it's the consumer.

The Assembly members who passed the most recent law (and the older law) didn't write either law -- or probably even read either law. Whatever anti-gun group wrote the law told them, "If you want our support and money, pass this law". The group didn't search the NJ code to find that a law was already on the books. The anti-gun laws in all the blue states are pretty much cut and paste versions of each other. Requiring trigger locks on a firearm without specifying that it must be unloaded first is dangerous and both the new and old laws do that.

This is a picture thread, not another discussion about the "firearm".

We need a NJGF groupon for LASIK. Oh, and congrats on the honor. It's well deserved.

I could use a new pair - or LASIK... Thanks! I definitely have spent a lot of time (and money) volunteering to help fight for our rights and teach proper gun handling and safety!

Bump for those building "Firearm" ARs.

FID, P2P, or carry permit needed to purchase handgun ammo. No such paperwork needed for rifle or shotgun ammo. That's in the law. If an out of state online seller wishes to require or not such ID, that's on them. If such a vendor had what I wanted I can choose to provide the needed info, or not.