SJ Guns

Even though the vote is Monday, I will be calling this weekend and encouraging my friends to do the same. I want them to show up for work Monday morning and have the secretary tell them that they received 5,000 voicemails since Friday.

There are no approved ranges. Any NRA instructor at any range (or in their back yard) can certify you. There are three ways to qualify. See the section of the NJ administrative code below. #1 below doesn't exist so you can't use that. For some reason, nobody is offering #3 and I'm not sure the local police departments even know it's an option so it might be rejected if you used that method. That leaves option #2. An NRA (or other organization) firearms instructor must certify on paper that you demonstrated "thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of firearms" and you must submit your qualification scores. There is no official qualifier that you have to shoot but most instructors are using some sort of modified version of the HCQ1 or HCQ2 qualifier. Google those and you'll find the courses of fire. NJAC 13:45-2.4 (b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by: 1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j; 2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or 3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor. (c) The information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s). More information can be found starting on page 32 here: https://nj2as.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Firearms-Investigation-Guide-2014-redactedRedacted_1_1.pdf

Imagine a world where... You had never actually seen a car. You don't know anyone who owns a car. You've never even been close enough to a highway to actually see anyone operate a car. The only have two sources of information about cars. You see news stories about car crashes, drunk drivers, multi-car pile ups on snow covered highways, and stories about people killed in all kinds of car accidents. The second source of information is Hollywood movies where everyone drives 100 miles per hour, slides sideways around turns, and crashes into each other, buildings, and even drives off the tops of parking garages into swimming pools. You would think that cars are way too dangerous for anyone to own and that car owners are all out of control maniacs.

NY's attempt at this was stopped by the courts within a few days. Bruen makes it clear that every one of these restrictions is unconstitutional. As soon as this is passed, one of NJ's gun organizations will be in federal court filing papers to stop this and I'll send them a donation as soon as I know who that is. I don't know the timeline but I really believe these restrictions won't last very long.

Not a lawyer but reasonable suspicion is that a crime has been committed. Possession with a permit is not a crime so no reasonable suspicion.

An FBI type Q target is roughly 12" wide. If you're shooting 3" groups at 7 yards, that should translate to about an 11" group at 25 yards. . The fundamentals don't change as the distances change.

And some counties are holding hearings, some are not. In some counties the prosecutor's office is involved, in some counties they are not. Every county is doing their own thing. Hopefully, it all gets settled soon and there will be one system.

Every PD handles their own investigation. NJSP is only involved for those who live in a rural municipality without it's own PD. In that case, NJSP is the local PD.

Yes. Legal. I have one. Not very useful. Spork of firearms. But lots of fun.

I'm curious too.

All that the law requires is to "demonstrate thorough familiarity with the use and safe handling" of your firearm. It's up to the discretion of the instructor what he or she needs to see in order to have faith that you have met the requirement above. Since using a firearm for self defense so rarely happens at distances over 10 yards, I personally don't think it's necessary to shoot out to 25 yards. There's also no requirement in the law for a certain number of rounds, or even a specific score to pass. Since the HCQ1, HCQ2, and RPO courses of fire require a score of 80, I think everyone has adopted that as the standard, even though there really is no standard score for non-LEO qualifiers. What I do think is critical is safe handling. Don't muzzle your fingers, don't muzzle your neighbor, don't put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire, don't wave the gun around when clearing a malfunction. Getting that wrong should disqualify someone. But different instructors have different opinions about what the "right" course of fire should be.

I'm sure that the courts were involved in the process as a double check to make sure some rogue police chief didn't start to issue permits.

There are two laws. One says you can carry any guns. The other says the judge can limit what you can carry. see this: https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/104150-nj-handgun-carry-permit-application-experience/&do=findComment&comment=1405818

NJS 2C:58-4. Permits to carry handguns a. Scope and duration of authority. Any person who holds a valid permit to carry a handgun issued pursuant to this section shall be authorized to carry a handgun in all parts of this State, except as prohibited by section 2C:39-5e. One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof, but the permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual and legal holder of the permit. BUT… NJAC 13:54-2.7 Issuance of a permit to carry a handgun (a) Upon being satisfied of the sufficiency of the application and the fulfillment of the provisions of Chapter 58, Laws of 1979, the judge shall issue a permit. (b) The court may, at its discretion, issue a limited type permit which would restrict the applicant as to the types of handguns he or she may carry and where and for what purposes such handguns may be carried.

Like those of us in NJ, not everyone voted for the clowns but everyone suffers.

I'm not in favor of filing a lawsuit like that now. 1998 Adler v, Livak. Adler sued Franklin Twp. police chief Livak because he took longer than the 30 days required by law to issue a firearms ID card. The court ruled that police departments do not have to issue an FID card within 30 days even though that's what the law says. The reasoning was basically that it takes a long time to do a background check so the police can take longer than 30 days. Issuing carry permits to the masses is brand new in NJ and police departments and the courts are legitimately overwhelmed right now. Eventually, a better system will be put in place and they won't be as overwhelmed. If we file a law suit right now, there is a legitimate argument that they can't do the background checks required by law and also follow the 60 day law. I think we would lose that case based on the "it just takes longer than 60 days" argument. If we lose in court now, case law is established and the 60 day rule is gone forever. If we wait to file a law suit until things calm down and there is no longer a legitimate reason for the delays, we might win the case - although in NJ, it's still a long shot.

I applied for P2Ps about 8 weeks ago through NJSP and was told that they were taking 3 weeks to issue. I realize Bruen really clogged up the system so I'm not especially surprised that it's been 8 weeks but I would like to know how much longer I should expect to wait. I bought my next gun and it's waiting for my permit - back when I thought the gun and permit would come in about the same time. So I'm sure I know the answer but is there any way to check the status of a permit submitted through the FARS system? I've already emailed the trooper in charge of permits a couple of times. He's been very helpful and very responsive every time I've done permits in the past but I'm not even getting an email back this time and my first email was probably 3 weeks ago.

Law for police, retired police, and the rest of us are different laws. Police and retired police have the course of fire defined. A permit to carry a handgun does not have a defined course of fire. Most instructors are using some modified version of the other two but all that is really required is: demonstrating "familiarity with safe handling and use" of a handgun submission of your qualification scores. There is no specific score required. Again, most instructors (maybe all) are requiring 80% since that's what is required for police and retired police. Google NJAC 13:45-2.4(b) for the actual law. Everyone is using option #2 under this law. And, yes, we will need to do the whole process over every 2 years. Fingerprints, references, qualification, new application, etc.

Assuming your post was sarcasm. But...option 3 of NJAC 13:45-2.4 is: 3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor. So I'd say it doesn't count.

or the Supreme Court of the United States

That's an old reference

I took pictures with my phone standing against a white wall. Trimmed them with my computer's built-in photo editing software - maybe it's microsoft paint? Whatever comes with windows. pasted them into word and resized using the rulers on the edges of the page. printed on photo paper using our cheap walmart ink jet printer. Trimmed with scissors.

I don't think there is anything to be done yet about counties that haven't issued. Law gives PD's 60 days to process the application and get it to the courts. As far as we know, that is being done. Courts have an internal directive to process applications within 30 days of receipt. Not law so I'm not sure how binding that is or what legal complaint there is to make if that date isn't met. But...it hasn't been 90 days since Bruen yet. We're a couple of weeks from any kind of action on outstanding permits.

Will not happen. A lot of us have non-resident permits from other states and have spent years carrying whenever we aren't at home. Nobody will ever notice that you're carrying unless you're making it really obvious. Lots of stuff can make a bump in your clothing. The first time you do it, you're sure everyone knows. One out of 20 adults in the US has a carry permit. Every time you're out of state, you're surrounded by people carrying guns. I bet you never noticed either.

Seems like the courts and the judges would be in the best position to know what the law requires them to do. Who would the courts get direction from about how to follow the law if they're the branch in charge of interpreting the law?