Jump to content

maintenanceguy

Members
  • Content Count

    2,042
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    4
  • Feedback

    100%

Posts posted by maintenanceguy


  1. Submitted my application this morning.  The trooper at Bridgeton Barracks has always been very helpful and takes the time to explain everything. Some information I gleaned from our conversation:

    • So far he estimates that I'm the 20th person to drop off an application at the station.  I would have expected it was more.
    • The background check and paperwork review is done at the local barracks and then sent to Trenton for a second review.  Trenton forwards to the superior court.  Once approved, the court sends it back to Trenton and Trenton makes the card and forwards it to the local barracks.  I'm sure that the process is different if you're not going through NJSP.
    • He spoke to someone at the superior court who told him (1) They don't have direction on the process yet. (2) hearings will most likely not be required - although they always have been in the past. 
    • I asked if he knew if there would be restricted type permits issued that would limit what we carry.  He said that he had been told we could carry only what we have submitted proof of ownership.  Guns purchased in the future would also be legal because there was a paper trail to prove proof of ownership.   That is when he told me he didn't know why that would be since he can look up any firearm we've purchased in NJ.
    • He also said that the process will be long enough that fingerprinting won't hold up the process. He and Trenton won't have permits ready for the court "any time soon" so the fingerprints will be added to the file whenever they get there - no hurry on prints.  That said, I signed up for prints in PA for tomorrow - not because I'm in a hurry (but I am) but because there are no appointments available in NJ.  You can only schedule 7 days out and all locations show 0 appointments available in the next 7 days.

    He admitted that there is a lot about the process he doesn't know yet and he said "I think" or "I have heard" a few times so the above information may be correct or not - and he was honest about that.  We also talked about a lot of different things so I might have remembered part of the conversation incorrectly too.  But...I think the above is pretty accurate.
     

     


  2. 24 minutes ago, brucin said:

    I'm looking for opinions on proof of ownership.

    One of the handguns I plan on qualifying with I purchased as a resident of NY and I still have a NY Permit to carry a pistol as I still have my residence there.

    This handgun as well as all the other handguns I purchased in NY are on the permit.

    Does anyone think that this would be sufficient for proof of ownership and does anyone see any downside to showing proof of all the other handguns I do not plan on qualifying with.

    I'm still a resident of NJ in case anyone was going to ask.

    I typed up a letter that says "To whom it may concern:

    This letter serves as my certification that I am the lawful owner of the following handguns:

    "

    I signed and dated it and had my signature notarized.  The trooper at my local station accepted it this morning.  We had a long talk about the process and he said he wasn't sure why there was a requirement for proof of ownership, if I bought a gun legally in NJ he can look it up in the database.  If I didn't, I can just write a letter which doesn't prove or disprove anything.

    • Like 2
    • Agree 1

  3. 4 hours ago, samiam said:

    My muffs are the old-fashioned kind that attenuate sound constantly. T'will be interesting if I get an instructor in the same mode as the one you had. The guy on the phone claimed the Tuesday qual would be "pretty easy", which doesn't seem to describe your experience very well. We shall see....

    I would say the qualification was easy, at least easy to pass - considering the fact that everyone passed and accurate shooting didn't seem to be scrutinized especially harshly.  I think passing the qualifier was easy.  Enduring the qualifier wasn't.


  4. 6 hours ago, samiam said:

    I'm scheduled for qualification at Shooters with my SP101 next Tuesday at 9 AM. I was assured of what has been reported here: no holster drill; no kneeling; no time limits; max distance 10 yards. I will go to SJCC in Winslow (where I am a member) tomorrow for some shootng practice at 10 yards and closer. I'm fairly optimistic about qualfying under those conditions. Obviously this won't be a substitute for holster drill, which I need badly (need to find a better holster first) but now I can do that while my application is making its leisurely way through the system. 

    Just so you know, that wasn't my experience at Shooters in Little Egg Harbor earlier this week.  The instructor was very nice, easy to like, and generally agreeable.  The course of fire was not difficult but the instructor felt that there was a need to put everyone under pressure.  Not sure why.

    There was some yelling, time limits, two shot and three shot drills. Commands to "holster" frequently which were handled by laying your gun on the counter - no actual holsters.   There was no time set aside to reload, you had to reload as you were being kind-of yelled at to shoot "three more rounds" or whatever the drill of the moment was.  I had a compact .380 since I thought you needed to qualify with what you carried and only had two 6 round mags.  I struggled to keep up and missed taking a few shots.   To be fair, the yelling wasn't drill-sargent-in-your-face style yelling but I don't know why it was needed at all.  It was also difficult to hear commands over the shooting with electric ear protection because every shot shuts down your ear muffs for half a second and we were shooting fast so you could probably only hear 1/3 of the time.

    Shots were taken at lots of different distances and I don't think we actually shot out to 15 yards, probably closer to 10 or 11yds max.  I think we shot 30 rounds according to the ammo left in my box but I didn't count so I'm guessing.  Everyone passed.  I saw everyone else's target and never counted hits but I think the instructor may have been generous in scoring.

    That said, after the shooting, which I didn't particularly enjoy, the instructor was once again very helpful, friendly, and accommodating.  We could put up to 4 handguns on the forms and as I said, everyone passed.

    If you're going to shooters I recommend: (1) arrive 15 minutes early to pay - the class starts on time! (2) Bring the serial numbers of the guns you want to include on the form. You can't uncase your guns in the classroom and you won't have time in the range to write the numbers down, (3) Bring enough magazines to shoot 30 rounds and start loading them as soon as you get into the range.  You won't have much time before the shooting starts.

    • Informative 1

  5. Here's the exception to 2C:58-4 above:

    N.J. Admin. Code § 13:54-2.7 - Issuance of a permit to carry a handgun
    (a) Upon being satisfied of the sufficiency of the application and the fulfillment of the provisions of P.L. 1979, c. 58, the judge shall issue a permit. The issuing Superior Court judge shall return the original permit to carry a handgun along with the application endorsed by the issuing Superior Court judge, to the jurisdiction of origin.
    (b) The court may, at its discretion, issue a limited type permit which would restrict the applicant as to the types of handguns he or she may carry and where and for what purposes such handguns may be carried.
    (c) The Superintendent shall be provided with copies of all permits to carry handguns issued or re-issued by the Superior Court.
     
    And I don't think we know yet if the permits issued by the court will have restrictions listed on them.  But, I agree.  As long as the judge doesn't restrict what we can carry, we can carry any handgun.
    • Agree 1

  6.  

    The original question was "So can I leave a gun in my car now?"

    Was that ever illegal?  Transporting by car was illegal so it was illegal to take it to the supermarket and to bring it home from the supermarket but I don't think it was ever illegal to have it in the car at the supermarket.

    I realize that's useless because you can't leave it in the car if you can't get it there in the first place but now that getting it there is legal (with a carry permit), I would think that leaving it in the car is legal - since that was never illegal.

    If your workplace doesn't allow you to carry at work but you want to carry on the way there and the way home, I think you can leave it locked up in your car.  But, I'm not a lawyer.


  7. 1 hour ago, DAHL said:

    With all this discussion about "qual" I find this whole process quite discriminatory. My brother in law is a cripple in a wheelchair and wants to shoot and carry. His hands and arms work OK but he can't walk very well. What do all you macho guys say about that?

    First, there should be no qualification shoot to exercise a constitutionally protected right.  Now that I have that off my chest...Your brother in law should have a course of fire modified so that he can shoot it from his wheelchair. 

    I don't know anything about his disabilities or if he's capable of handling a firearm safely.  Assuming that he is, he is the poster child for why right to carry matters so much. It levels the playing field for someone who isn't able to physically defend themselves. 

    If he wants to carry and can't find a place to qualify, contact me and I think I can help.  I'm not interested in getting into the qualification game but I am an NRA instructor and I would be willing to meet you and your BIL to figure out a CoF that works for him and sign off on the paperwork - assuming he can demonstrate safe handling and can shoot some type of course so he has scores to submit.

    • Like 5
    • Thanks 1

  8. 2 hours ago, DAHL said:

    I have made many calls to different places and spoken with instructors who are doing the quals. Prices average $150--$175. There is an enormous difference in what each place considers a qual.  The law just states that you must demonstrate safety , proficiency with the firearm that you intend to carry and submit scores.  . There is nothing in the NJ carry permit law that states yardage, timing, target choice and position. The state police may recommend something but that's about it. I wish to qual at  3, 5, 5, 7 , & 10 yds standing. There is no logical reason to be tested at 15 or 25 yds as self defense at those distances are rare. If I have to add 15 so be it but shooting with a Glock 26 is challenging.

    Exactly.  Let's stop adding unnecessary complexity to something that's already unconstitutionally complex.

    • Agree 2

  9. On 7/27/2022 at 12:38 PM, Combat Auto said:

    I did my Qualification shoot this morning...The shoot was a lot of fun, fast and furious, we shot 35 rounds in less that 10 mins, one person said 7 mins don't know if he actually timed it...It was all SD distances out from 3 to 10 yards, lots of 1-handed, one head shot. Fast and furious, barking out commands for the various mini-drill one after the other, no stopping, we were required to reload not only mags into gun but stuffing rounds into mags all on the clock...It was a total HOOT! Haven't had that much fun shooting since I gave up USPSA competition a few years ago.

    Ugggh!  I'm signed up to qualify at Shooters next week.  Considering canceling and finding another venue.  Just not interested in some guy yelling at me while I'm shooting.  There shouldn't be a qualifier at all since it's all constitutionally protected...  Not crazy about instructors, who I would wish were pro 2A, adding unnecessary requirements to the qualifier shoot to make exercising a right even more cumbersome.  We're all grown ups.  Let's just agree that these infringements suck, shoot whatever course is required, and go home with as little hassle and wasted time as possible. 

    Can anybody recommend a range that does that?  Keeps it simple, shoots what's required, no added fluff, no fancy tactical drills, and I go home with signed papers?

    • Agree 1

  10. The right answer is that granny doesn't have to qualify at all because you don't have to pass tests to exercise constitutionally protected rights.  Unfortunately we are going to have to do what NJ is requiring if we want to stay out of jail but it is odd to me that we have people here, on a pro gun forum, advocating for more difficult tests.

    • Like 4
    • Agree 2

  11. 2 hours ago, samiam said:

    The lawyer might want to be paid up front for that work. Why should the applicant need to fork over money because the local cop shop is staffed by morons with delusions of competence? Just maybe, a plausible threat could spook those a$$-clowns into moving off the dime, and costs nothing. I suspect there will be no lack of class action suits looking for additional plantiffs before very long, and those will almost certainly cost those claiming injury nothing up front to take part. 

    Because cops are told all day "I'm going to sue you".  I think it's lost it's teeth.


  12. 4 hours ago, Brandyep said:

    Anyone who took the class at reloaderz have any issues?

    My local PD is now telling me that that is not enough to qualify and that I need:

    Items 1 and 3 which are the substantially equivalent training per NJSA 2C:39-6j and safe handling course

    Makes no sense since that Is what I thought Reloaderz provided and I submitted to the PD

     

    I disagree with your PD. I've posted the admin code before and the excerpt from the NJSP Firearm Investigator's Guidebook but they are:

    Quote

    NJAC 13:45-2.4

    (b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by:

    1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;
    2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
    3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.

    (c) The information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s).

    See the semi-colons between 1,2,and 3 and the "or" between 2 and 3.  you only need one of these.  And that's confirmed by the NJSP Firearms Investigation Guide

    Quote

    Firearm Applicant Investigation Guidebook by the NJSP that is used by all local PDs and NJSP when issuing FIDs, P2P,s and Carry Permits...

    "The applicant must produce evidence he or she is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns. This may be evidenced in one of several ways:
    a. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S. 2C: 39-6.j;
    b. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor;
    c. Completion of a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
    d. Passage of any test in this State’s laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor

    They added a "c" which is weird but it still has the same semi-colons and the word "or". It even says specifically that "this may be evidenced in one of several ways".


  13. 22 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:

     

    The administrative code lists only 3 and numbers them 1 through 3.  The NJSP Firearms Investigation Guide lists a 4th (a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun) and they use letters A through D instead of numbers.  But that 4th one doesn't show up in the actual law.  I don't know where the NJSP they got that 4th one from. 

    I'm avoiding that 4th one since it's not really what the law requires.  But, based on the NJSP's guidance, there will probably be PDs that accept it.  The Superior Court may know the actual law and not do what the NJSP tells them to do so I'm staying away just in case the courts reject applications that use their NRA Basic Handgun Course.

     

    1 hour ago, samiam said:

    The Adminstrative Code is NOT the "actual law". The "actual law" is Statute 2C:38-4 in the NJ Code of Criminal Justice.

    2021 New Jersey Revised Statutes Title 2C - The New Jersey Code of Criminal Justice Section 2C:58-4 - Permits to carry handguns.

    The administrative code is treated by the courts as the law.  If there is a conflict between the statute and administrative code, the statutes rule.  But, in the absence of a conflict, the courts, the police, and the agencies and departments consider it to be the law.  If everyone treats it as the law, it's the law.

    I believe the only valid use of the administrative code is for the various agencies to explain how they will be complying with the statue but it's not used that way and the courts allow it.

    So, I don't like it either but the administrative code is the law. 


  14. 2 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:

    We are really overthinking this qualification thing.   It's really simple.  NJAC 13:45-2.4 sets the standard.  There are three ways to qualify. I'll list them out of order...

    (1) take a course that's the same as the one police take at the academy - that's not available so we can't do this one.
    (3) Pass a test on the state's laws about use of force by an instructor of the police academy or NRA instructor. - there is no such course so we can't do this one.
    (2) Shoot a qualifier and submit your scores with a NRA or other instructor.  This is the only one we can use since it's the only one that exists so we will do this one.

    And there is no specific required course of fire.  So go shoot something that seems reasonable and submit your scores.  It will be hard for the state to reject any course of fire since they have no idea what's acceptable and what isn't.  Make yours look kind of like everyone else's and the permit approvers will just assume it's the correct one.  If someone does complain, ask for the standard they are using to decide that - there isn't one.

    Living in NJ has made us so afraid of making a mistake that we've filled 20 pages of what-ifs on this topic.

     

    1 hour ago, xXxplosive said:

    A, B, C, D..............ya missed one.

    The administrative code lists only 3 and numbers them 1 through 3.  The NJSP Firearms Investigation Guide lists a 4th (a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun) and they use letters A through D instead of numbers.  But that 4th one doesn't show up in the actual law.  I don't know where the NJSP they got that 4th one from. 

    I'm avoiding that 4th one since it's not really what the law requires.  But, based on the NJSP's guidance, there will probably be PDs that accept it.  The Superior Court may know the actual law and not do what the NJSP tells them to do so I'm staying away just in case the courts reject applications that use their NRA Basic Handgun Course.

    • Like 1

  15. We are really overthinking this qualification thing.   It's really simple.  NJAC 13:45-2.4 sets the standard.  There are three ways to qualify. I'll list them out of order...

    (1) take a course that's the same as the one police take at the academy - that's not available so we can't do this one.
    (3) Pass a test on the state's laws about use of force by an instructor of the police academy or NRA instructor. - there is no such course so we can't do this one.
    (2) Shoot a qualifier and submit your scores with a NRA or other instructor.  This is the only one we can use since it's the only one that exists so we will do this one.

    And there is no specific required course of fire.  So go shoot something that seems reasonable and submit your scores.  It will be hard for the state to reject any course of fire since they have no idea what's acceptable and what isn't.  Make yours look kind of like everyone else's and the permit approvers will just assume it's the correct one.  If someone does complain, ask for the standard they are using to decide that - there isn't one.

    Living in NJ has made us so afraid of making a mistake that we've filled 20 pages of what-ifs on this topic.

    • Like 1
    • Agree 6
    • Informative 1

  16. I'm an NRA instructor and would like to qualify with several firearms that I own.  I don't want to pay the fee to a range over and over again to qualify with everything.  It's probably 6 or 7 different handguns.  I'd like to find another NRA instructor and we can spend a morning or afternoon qualifying each other with whatever guns we own. We'll each bring our own guns and ammo.

    I'm ordering FBI Q targets right now that I'll bring. I'll also work up a qualification form that looks legit that we can use.  I've got a suggested course of fire that one of the S.J ranges is using but I'm flexible on what we shoot.  I intend to do this legitimately, not just sign off from our living rooms, but there's no reason to make this more complicated than it has to be. 

    If you're an NRA instructor who likes long walks on the beach and lives anywhere near Quinton Sportsman's Club, reach out to me and we'll try to work out a date and time to get this done. I can guest you in at Quinton at no cost.

    FYI.  My wife just had surgery, and I've got an order of ammo on it's way.  So, the first I would probably be available would be the end of next week.

    • Haha 2

  17. 2 hours ago, samiam said:

    See his post on pg #2 of this thread about 1/3 of the way down. I haven't yet figured out how to link directly to a sngle comment here...

    I concluded from his experience that my 2016 NRA Basic Handgun Safety and Competency cert was not going to pass muster. 

    The basic handgun course does not meet the requirements as per NJAC 13"45-2.4.  The things that do meet the standard are... from NJAC 13:45-2.4

    (b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by:

    1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;  The basic handgun course is not substantially equivalent to the police training course.
    2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; The basic handgun course doesn't score your range day.  or
    3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.  The basic handgun course is not a course in this state's laws governing the use of force.

     

    But... I do think they would have to accept any of the three things on this list and not just shooting qualifications.  The problem is that there isn't a course identical to the police training course that we can take and nobody has put together a course in the state's laws re: use of force.  So all that's left for us is to shoot a qualifier.

    • Informative 1

  18. 4 hours ago, MrAceJD said:

    Can anyone confirm that the new guidance on pistol qualification for CCW only requires qualification with a pistol owned, but doesn't restrict carry to that pistol?  I am reading the SP memo and it says that any handgun acquired AFTER the issuance of the CCW may be carried and doesn't require additional qualification.  What does that mean for other legally owned pistols acquired BEFORE the CCW but not tested on for certification?   Thank you.

    The guidance you are reading is not official guidance.  See this thread:

    and this post: 

     

     


  19. Here is what officially qualifies as evidence of familiarity with firearms:

    According to the Firearm Applicant Investigation Guidebook by the NJSP that is used by all local PDs and NJSP when issuing FIDs, P2P,s and Carry Permits...

    "The applicant must produce evidence he or she is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns. This may be evidenced in one of several ways:
    a. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S. 2C: 39-6.j;
    b. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor;
    c. Completion of a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
    d. Passage of any test in this State’s laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor

    According to NJ Administrative Code (NJAC) 13:45-2.4

    (b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by:
    1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;
    2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
    3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.

    (c) The information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s).

     

    Items (b) and (2) don't explain what the course of fire is. It seems that most are doing some abbreviated/modified version of the RPO qualification found on page 79 of the "Semi-Annual Firearms Qualification and Requalification Standards for New Jersey Law Enforcement.".  But the law and the guidance doesn't require that. It doesn't say what CoF is good enough at at all.

    But it does require "Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores".  Since NRA Basic Pistol does not require a specific score and scores are not recorded, it seems that would not qualify.  But if they are following their own rules, almost anything else does.

    • Informative 1

  20. 26 minutes ago, samiam said:

    You may claim to believe in "capitalism" but your answer denies the way a free market operates. A "fair price" is what the market will bear. Nobody is being forced to buy the service Nappen offered. He is free to sell his time for whatever price he chooses, and he is free to go without income if there are no takers. The only way I could fault him for profiting from NJ's despicable denial of rights would be if he was somehow encouraging or aiding those denials (e.g., helping Murphy or Scutari get elected, contributing to Everytown, etc.) at the same time he was profiting. If anyone has any evidence of that, I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it. For that matter, it seems to me that Wayne LaPierre and the NRA have profited quite handsomely from gun control. 

    Except that when the government limits entry into a particular occupation, like law, it's no longer a free market.

    I'm not suggesting that commerce should be completely unregulated but if it really was a free market, I could be a lawyer and so could you.  The price of lawyering would drop significantly.  And then the free market would decide who were the good lawyers that charged a reasonable price and eliminate the bad ones or the ones that charged too much.

×
×
  • Create New...