maintenanceguy
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Posts posted by maintenanceguy
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The original question was "So can I leave a gun in my car now?"
Was that ever illegal? Transporting by car was illegal so it was illegal to take it to the supermarket and to bring it home from the supermarket but I don't think it was ever illegal to have it in the car at the supermarket.
I realize that's useless because you can't leave it in the car if you can't get it there in the first place but now that getting it there is legal (with a carry permit), I would think that leaving it in the car is legal - since that was never illegal.
If your workplace doesn't allow you to carry at work but you want to carry on the way there and the way home, I think you can leave it locked up in your car. But, I'm not a lawyer.
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1 hour ago, DAHL said:With all this discussion about "qual" I find this whole process quite discriminatory. My brother in law is a cripple in a wheelchair and wants to shoot and carry. His hands and arms work OK but he can't walk very well. What do all you macho guys say about that?
First, there should be no qualification shoot to exercise a constitutionally protected right. Now that I have that off my chest...Your brother in law should have a course of fire modified so that he can shoot it from his wheelchair.
I don't know anything about his disabilities or if he's capable of handling a firearm safely. Assuming that he is, he is the poster child for why right to carry matters so much. It levels the playing field for someone who isn't able to physically defend themselves.
If he wants to carry and can't find a place to qualify, contact me and I think I can help. I'm not interested in getting into the qualification game but I am an NRA instructor and I would be willing to meet you and your BIL to figure out a CoF that works for him and sign off on the paperwork - assuming he can demonstrate safe handling and can shoot some type of course so he has scores to submit.
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2 hours ago, DAHL said:I have made many calls to different places and spoken with instructors who are doing the quals. Prices average $150--$175. There is an enormous difference in what each place considers a qual. The law just states that you must demonstrate safety , proficiency with the firearm that you intend to carry and submit scores. . There is nothing in the NJ carry permit law that states yardage, timing, target choice and position. The state police may recommend something but that's about it. I wish to qual at 3, 5, 5, 7 , & 10 yds standing. There is no logical reason to be tested at 15 or 25 yds as self defense at those distances are rare. If I have to add 15 so be it but shooting with a Glock 26 is challenging.
Exactly. Let's stop adding unnecessary complexity to something that's already unconstitutionally complex.
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On 7/27/2022 at 12:38 PM, Combat Auto said:I did my Qualification shoot this morning...The shoot was a lot of fun, fast and furious, we shot 35 rounds in less that 10 mins, one person said 7 mins don't know if he actually timed it...It was all SD distances out from 3 to 10 yards, lots of 1-handed, one head shot. Fast and furious, barking out commands for the various mini-drill one after the other, no stopping, we were required to reload not only mags into gun but stuffing rounds into mags all on the clock...It was a total HOOT! Haven't had that much fun shooting since I gave up USPSA competition a few years ago.
Ugggh! I'm signed up to qualify at Shooters next week. Considering canceling and finding another venue. Just not interested in some guy yelling at me while I'm shooting. There shouldn't be a qualifier at all since it's all constitutionally protected... Not crazy about instructors, who I would wish were pro 2A, adding unnecessary requirements to the qualifier shoot to make exercising a right even more cumbersome. We're all grown ups. Let's just agree that these infringements suck, shoot whatever course is required, and go home with as little hassle and wasted time as possible.
Can anybody recommend a range that does that? Keeps it simple, shoots what's required, no added fluff, no fancy tactical drills, and I go home with signed papers?
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The right answer is that granny doesn't have to qualify at all because you don't have to pass tests to exercise constitutionally protected rights. Unfortunately we are going to have to do what NJ is requiring if we want to stay out of jail but it is odd to me that we have people here, on a pro gun forum, advocating for more difficult tests.
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2 hours ago, samiam said:The lawyer might want to be paid up front for that work. Why should the applicant need to fork over money because the local cop shop is staffed by morons with delusions of competence? Just maybe, a plausible threat could spook those a$$-clowns into moving off the dime, and costs nothing. I suspect there will be no lack of class action suits looking for additional plantiffs before very long, and those will almost certainly cost those claiming injury nothing up front to take part.
Because cops are told all day "I'm going to sue you". I think it's lost it's teeth.
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send them a copy of the firearms investigation guide with the relevant part highlighted.
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4 hours ago, Brandyep said:Anyone who took the class at reloaderz have any issues?
My local PD is now telling me that that is not enough to qualify and that I need:
Items 1 and 3 which are the substantially equivalent training per NJSA 2C:39-6j and safe handling course
Makes no sense since that Is what I thought Reloaderz provided and I submitted to the PD
I disagree with your PD. I've posted the admin code before and the excerpt from the NJSP Firearm Investigator's Guidebook but they are:
QuoteNJAC 13:45-2.4
(b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by:
1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;
2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.(c) The information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s).
See the semi-colons between 1,2,and 3 and the "or" between 2 and 3. you only need one of these. And that's confirmed by the NJSP Firearms Investigation Guide
QuoteFirearm Applicant Investigation Guidebook by the NJSP that is used by all local PDs and NJSP when issuing FIDs, P2P,s and Carry Permits...
"The applicant must produce evidence he or she is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns. This may be evidenced in one of several ways:
a. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S. 2C: 39-6.j;
b. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor;
c. Completion of a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
d. Passage of any test in this State’s laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructorThey added a "c" which is weird but it still has the same semi-colons and the word "or". It even says specifically that "this may be evidenced in one of several ways".
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Just thought I'd bump this once to see if it gets any takers. That is all. Thank you.
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22 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:The administrative code lists only 3 and numbers them 1 through 3. The NJSP Firearms Investigation Guide lists a 4th (a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun) and they use letters A through D instead of numbers. But that 4th one doesn't show up in the actual law. I don't know where the NJSP they got that 4th one from.
I'm avoiding that 4th one since it's not really what the law requires. But, based on the NJSP's guidance, there will probably be PDs that accept it. The Superior Court may know the actual law and not do what the NJSP tells them to do so I'm staying away just in case the courts reject applications that use their NRA Basic Handgun Course.
1 hour ago, samiam said:The Adminstrative Code is NOT the "actual law". The "actual law" is Statute 2C:38-4 in the NJ Code of Criminal Justice.
The administrative code is treated by the courts as the law. If there is a conflict between the statute and administrative code, the statutes rule. But, in the absence of a conflict, the courts, the police, and the agencies and departments consider it to be the law. If everyone treats it as the law, it's the law.
I believe the only valid use of the administrative code is for the various agencies to explain how they will be complying with the statue but it's not used that way and the courts allow it.
So, I don't like it either but the administrative code is the law.
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2 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:We are really overthinking this qualification thing. It's really simple. NJAC 13:45-2.4 sets the standard. There are three ways to qualify. I'll list them out of order...
(1) take a course that's the same as the one police take at the academy - that's not available so we can't do this one.
(3) Pass a test on the state's laws about use of force by an instructor of the police academy or NRA instructor. - there is no such course so we can't do this one.
(2) Shoot a qualifier and submit your scores with a NRA or other instructor. This is the only one we can use since it's the only one that exists so we will do this one.And there is no specific required course of fire. So go shoot something that seems reasonable and submit your scores. It will be hard for the state to reject any course of fire since they have no idea what's acceptable and what isn't. Make yours look kind of like everyone else's and the permit approvers will just assume it's the correct one. If someone does complain, ask for the standard they are using to decide that - there isn't one.
Living in NJ has made us so afraid of making a mistake that we've filled 20 pages of what-ifs on this topic.
1 hour ago, xXxplosive said:A, B, C, D..............ya missed one.
The administrative code lists only 3 and numbers them 1 through 3. The NJSP Firearms Investigation Guide lists a 4th (a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun) and they use letters A through D instead of numbers. But that 4th one doesn't show up in the actual law. I don't know where the NJSP they got that 4th one from.
I'm avoiding that 4th one since it's not really what the law requires. But, based on the NJSP's guidance, there will probably be PDs that accept it. The Superior Court may know the actual law and not do what the NJSP tells them to do so I'm staying away just in case the courts reject applications that use their NRA Basic Handgun Course.
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We are really overthinking this qualification thing. It's really simple. NJAC 13:45-2.4 sets the standard. There are three ways to qualify. I'll list them out of order...
(1) take a course that's the same as the one police take at the academy - that's not available so we can't do this one.
(3) Pass a test on the state's laws about use of force by an instructor of the police academy or NRA instructor. - there is no such course so we can't do this one.
(2) Shoot a qualifier and submit your scores with a NRA or other instructor. This is the only one we can use since it's the only one that exists so we will do this one.And there is no specific required course of fire. So go shoot something that seems reasonable and submit your scores. It will be hard for the state to reject any course of fire since they have no idea what's acceptable and what isn't. Make yours look kind of like everyone else's and the permit approvers will just assume it's the correct one. If someone does complain, ask for the standard they are using to decide that - there isn't one.
Living in NJ has made us so afraid of making a mistake that we've filled 20 pages of what-ifs on this topic.
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I'm an NRA instructor and would like to qualify with several firearms that I own. I don't want to pay the fee to a range over and over again to qualify with everything. It's probably 6 or 7 different handguns. I'd like to find another NRA instructor and we can spend a morning or afternoon qualifying each other with whatever guns we own. We'll each bring our own guns and ammo.
I'm ordering FBI Q targets right now that I'll bring. I'll also work up a qualification form that looks legit that we can use. I've got a suggested course of fire that one of the S.J ranges is using but I'm flexible on what we shoot. I intend to do this legitimately, not just sign off from our living rooms, but there's no reason to make this more complicated than it has to be.
If you're an NRA instructor who likes long walks on the beach and lives anywhere near Quinton Sportsman's Club, reach out to me and we'll try to work out a date and time to get this done. I can guest you in at Quinton at no cost.
FYI. My wife just had surgery, and I've got an order of ammo on it's way. So, the first I would probably be available would be the end of next week.
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2 hours ago, samiam said:See his post on pg #2 of this thread about 1/3 of the way down. I haven't yet figured out how to link directly to a sngle comment here...
I concluded from his experience that my 2016 NRA Basic Handgun Safety and Competency cert was not going to pass muster.
The basic handgun course does not meet the requirements as per NJAC 13"45-2.4. The things that do meet the standard are... from NJAC 13:45-2.4
(b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by:
1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j; The basic handgun course is not substantially equivalent to the police training course.
2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; The basic handgun course doesn't score your range day. or
3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor. The basic handgun course is not a course in this state's laws governing the use of force.But... I do think they would have to accept any of the three things on this list and not just shooting qualifications. The problem is that there isn't a course identical to the police training course that we can take and nobody has put together a course in the state's laws re: use of force. So all that's left for us is to shoot a qualifier.
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There are several "official" ways to meet the qualification standard. I posted earlier the text in both the administrative code and how it's listed in the Firearm Applicant Investigator's Guidebook. If anyone is interested, that post can be found here:
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4 hours ago, MrAceJD said:Can anyone confirm that the new guidance on pistol qualification for CCW only requires qualification with a pistol owned, but doesn't restrict carry to that pistol? I am reading the SP memo and it says that any handgun acquired AFTER the issuance of the CCW may be carried and doesn't require additional qualification. What does that mean for other legally owned pistols acquired BEFORE the CCW but not tested on for certification? Thank you.
The guidance you are reading is not official guidance. See this thread:
and this post:
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Here is what officially qualifies as evidence of familiarity with firearms:
According to the Firearm Applicant Investigation Guidebook by the NJSP that is used by all local PDs and NJSP when issuing FIDs, P2P,s and Carry Permits...
"The applicant must produce evidence he or she is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns. This may be evidenced in one of several ways:
a. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S. 2C: 39-6.j;
b. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor;
c. Completion of a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
d. Passage of any test in this State’s laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructorAccording to NJ Administrative Code (NJAC) 13:45-2.4
(b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by:
1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;
2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.(c) The information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s).
Items (b) and (2) don't explain what the course of fire is. It seems that most are doing some abbreviated/modified version of the RPO qualification found on page 79 of the "Semi-Annual Firearms Qualification and Requalification Standards for New Jersey Law Enforcement.". But the law and the guidance doesn't require that. It doesn't say what CoF is good enough at at all.
But it does require "Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores". Since NRA Basic Pistol does not require a specific score and scores are not recorded, it seems that would not qualify. But if they are following their own rules, almost anything else does.
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26 minutes ago, samiam said:You may claim to believe in "capitalism" but your answer denies the way a free market operates. A "fair price" is what the market will bear. Nobody is being forced to buy the service Nappen offered. He is free to sell his time for whatever price he chooses, and he is free to go without income if there are no takers. The only way I could fault him for profiting from NJ's despicable denial of rights would be if he was somehow encouraging or aiding those denials (e.g., helping Murphy or Scutari get elected, contributing to Everytown, etc.) at the same time he was profiting. If anyone has any evidence of that, I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it. For that matter, it seems to me that Wayne LaPierre and the NRA have profited quite handsomely from gun control.
Except that when the government limits entry into a particular occupation, like law, it's no longer a free market.
I'm not suggesting that commerce should be completely unregulated but if it really was a free market, I could be a lawyer and so could you. The price of lawyering would drop significantly. And then the free market would decide who were the good lawyers that charged a reasonable price and eliminate the bad ones or the ones that charged too much.
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A permit to carry a handgun lets you carry a handgun - that's all.
The SCOTUS decision specifically said that permitting is allowed so your friend carrying without a permit "as per the scotus decision" is not protected by the SCOTUS ruling.
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If I answered yes to 26, I would answer yes or no to 27. Otherwise, I would write N/A for does not apply.
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It's just like saying car insurance is illegal because somebody might intentionally cause an accident or that home insurance is illegal because people sometimes commit crimes in their homes.
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6 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:On the subject of what CoF should be used for quals, the statute and Admin Code are silent on what the CoF should be, or even any guidance as to what skills it is supposed to test.
I am planning to start running quals - I have 2 volunteers to be guinea pigs to verify that my NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert is sufficient to sign off on quals.
From my liability perspective, I am going to use HQC1 and HNQC. If someone I have signed off on is involved in an incident I wouldn't be surprised if they come looking for me to see whether the person really was properly qualified. If I can point to the CoF and say that is is the same that LEO and RPO use, I think I have a better chance of avoiding liability than if I used some other CoF that I just made up on my own.
I also already have firearms instructor liability insurance.
I would think that if the score sheet or certification record, or whatever it's called, includes a clear description of what CoF was used, the state would have a hard time coming after you if they accepted that CoF to issue a permit. The defense would be "It was the CoF that you approved when you approved the application".
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Murphy signed an executive order making it illegal to sell insurance for illegal activities and then fined one of the big companies $1million for offering carry insurance. All the other carriers dropped policies in NJ. Not sure what ____Shield is selling. Can't remember their name but Evan Nappen is always doing presentations at gun clubs for their product - which I thought was carry insurance.
I'm also not sure what's illegal about carry insurance. Crazy logic that nobody has wanted to take up in court.
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On 7/4/2022 at 1:29 PM, Combat Auto said:Thanks for the heads up!!! Chezze, I've been thinking 2X2...Nappen put out an instruction on how to get a CCW and he said "passport" size...The NJST site also has instructions that say "passport" size....YET, the ACTUAL application says 1.5X1.5...Go figure!
Can somebody point me to the document above? Thanks.
NJ Handgun Carry Permit Application Experience
in Current New Jersey Gun Laws Discussion
Posted
The letter says to call them and they will set up a phone meeting.