e92m3allday

ATF = judge, jury, and executioner. So does this mean to continue to measure it collapsed for adjustable braces or measure it removed? Because the letter says non-adjustable braces are to be measured removed, and foldable braces folded, but what about adjustable braces? Also collapsed? The difference is negligible anyways.

Will you guys have a .300 Blk version in 11.5”?

Anyone who wants to build your own (like I did a year ago), shouldn’t have to justify it either. I already have two buddies that are going to buy MM’s SBF, solely because of me. And trust me, I love building my own ARs and it’s usually the first thing I recommend to anyone getting into ARs. It doesn’t have to be an issue of support, but rather just preference. MM’s quality is on point, I see them all the time at Reloaderz (work there). But I love building my own ARs exactly how I want them. It’s preference, and there’s no shame in going either way.

I just hope that the companies (that are selling these firearms) who sent the NJSP an email framed the question the proper way. Because if NJSP says no, they would greatly benefit. The emails regarding assembling firearms should be framed with the XO-26 ATF letter in mind, where the ATF says yes it’s legal to construct your own. I posted that letter on page two.

The A2 flash hider only adds ~1.2 inches to the 10.5” length. It is 1.75” long, but you’re forgetting that the FH goes on to threads. That’s why standard birdcages don’t make 14.5” barrels the legal 16” length. So an 11.5” would be about 26.1” OAL at the minimum.

An 11.5” should do the trick. You have to measure from end of brace collapsed to end of threads.

And it’s not illegal on the state level either. There is literally ZERO law that anyone is breaking when doing so. I whole heartedly disagree with whoever at NJSP provided the interpretation, that they must be transferred as a complete other firearm. In that case, making any other legal class of firearms (rifles and pistols) out of a receiver would be illegal as well. Either way, someone said Stockholm syndrome before, couldn’t agree more...

I have to take back my statement. I’m genuinely confused though. It doesn’t say to, I assumed it because a 12.5” barrel with the brace extended would be 30”+. That is how they should have measured it, per the ATF. It was 28” OAL for the DSI and 26.5” for the Troy. A 12.5” barrel should be roughly 27” OAL from the buffer tube. The DSI has some cheek rest on it and probably had an extended buffer tube. So that maybe explains the DSI’s 28”. But the TROY OAL was 26.5” which, doesn’t make sense because a 12.5” barrel will be > 27” even from the buffer tube. I honestly think the Troy is an 11.5” barrel. In the letter, the Troy specs says 10.5” rail, and if you look at the picture there is no way it’s a 12.5” barrel. Either way, collapsed or from buffer tube is probably the safest bet, using this information.

11.5 pinned will 100% meet the requirement. I'm just trying to figure out if a 11.5" would, w/o having to pin and weld. It may fall just short, unless you get a slightly longer tube.

I disagree with this, but that’s just me. Can’t say I wasn’t right before, either.

UPDATE. I got the letter. LINK HERE. From the NJSP: "The New Jersey State Police Firearms Unit finds that the submitted Troy Industries A4 "other firearm" as well as the Dark Storm Industries DS-15 Non-NFA Firearm Typhoon are legal for sale in the State of New Jersey and are NOT considered to be an "assault firearm." This opinion is based upon the two firearms reviewed, however if the design or dimensions change from those samples, it may change the classification of the firearm. ". From the ATF: "In conclusion, correspondence from our Branch is dependent on the particular facts,designs, charactersitics or scenarios presented. Please be aware that although other cases (submissions to our Branch) may appear to present identical issues, this correspondence pertains to a particular issue or item. We caution against applying the guidance in this correspondence to other cases, because complex legal or technical issues may exist that differentiate this scenario or finding from others that only appear to be the same. This determination is based on the sample as submitted. If the design, dimensions, configuration, method of operation, or materials used were changed, this classification would be subject to review." OAL: According to the measurements, they measure OAL from the buffer tubes. My opinion. I may have an unpopular opinion on this. First thing first, the GOOD news is that our state literally just acknowledged the LEGALITY of non-NFA firearms in NJ!!! That shit is f*cking huge in of itself. Like holy shit man. That is f*cking amazing..... Now, let's talk about this. The two sections of the letters are very clear to caution everyone not to use these letters to justify the legality of other firearms. It's pretty straightforward. Don't try and use this letter to justify why a AR pistol is legal, because the letter of the law is VERY specific as to why non-NFA firearms are legal, and the average folk may not realize that something as simple as removing a VFG would make it illegal. We are talking about a category of arms that would be a federal crime to own if it was only 0.60 inches shorter or if the VFG was taken off. OBVIOUSLY they are going to say this. They have to urge everyone to be careful, because the lines are already so god damn blurred with these senseless gun laws. It's pretty simple. Do NOT remove the VFG, DO NOT put a stock on it, it HAS to be >26". The gun is legal in its STRICT format. Any small variation (no VFG grip, shorter barrel, etc) will make it illegal! The ATF letter mentions if any of the following are changed, they would be subject to another review. NONE OF THEM SHOULD CHANGE REGARDLESS. design (non-NFA firearm designed to be used with two hands) dimensions (HAS to be greater than 26") configuration (NEEDS A BRACE, and a VFG) method of operation (semi-automatic, not automatic) materials (metal, plastic, same materials) The important takeaway for me is this. We know the LAW because they literally spent the whole letter explaining it for us. They then told us it was legal to own and purchase. That is literally a done deal. Some people may get scared from building their own because of this letter, I personally see this as a green light. You know what is legal, you know what is not. If you are scared of building your own because you want the states little stamp of approval, then I guess you should send in all your guns to NJSP! But in all seriousness, I simply cannot find a single law that would prevent us from doing so. The guidelines of legality are set SUPER straight, even by our own draconian AG's office and NJSP. Stripped lower receivers are marked as OTHER on the 4473, which is exactly what these non-NFA firearms are processed as. We are in NJ though so, the general disclaimer is to be a gun owner at your own peril

According to the letter released on the legality of the non-NFA firearms, NJSP/ATF measured it from buffer tube to the end of barrel threads (or muzzle device if pinned). Until today I couldn't figure it out either.

Yes, as answered above. That updated Reddit post was my post by the way. As soon as we get them in at Reloaderz, I’ll have all the information for you guys and I will grab a copy of that NJSP letter as well. Can’t wait to see these things in the hands of N.J. gun owners.

Yup. 11.5” is good to go also. 10.5” is good to go too, in my opinion. The only why reason Connecticut’s non-NFA (“other”) firearms have 12.5” barrels is because their AWB statute defines semi-autos with detachable magazines that are less than 30” in OAL as assault weapons. NJ does not have such a law, yet. (It is one of the laws Murphy is trying to pass.) What this means though is that you can have a shorter barrel, as long as the firearm is is 26” OAL. Now I must mention that there is some debate and controversy on how to properly measure OAL. Some people feel it is safer to measure from buffer tube. Some measure from the brace in the extended most position, and I believe this is the correct way. The ATF has always extended the brace (as well as stocks) when taking measurements of firearms. The Franklin Armory XO-26 letter I posted in this thread earlier says to extend and measure from the rearmost position. There is also another email from the ATF, explicitly instructing to extend the brace when measuring. This matters because if you want a 10.5” barrel, following their way is good to go. But If you want to play it safe and measure from buffer tube for whatever reason, 10.5” will be just shy of 26” unless you pin the muzzle device. Another thing I wanted to mention, because these are firearms and not rifles, pistols, or shotguns, they do not follow AWB’s. So flash hiders are good to go.

Whoever does reach out, direct it to Det. Sgt. Brett Bloom, #5239. Not only is he educated, but he is a supporter of our 2A rights.