Red dots on pistols

[1LtCAP 4,262]

 ok. can some of you with the knowledge educate me? do i really want a red dot on a pistol? are there any real advantages to them to make them worth the money?

 how easyt are they to set up? do we aim(see what i did there?) to have them co-witness with iron sights like on a rifle?

 

 also, probably in the wrong place....sorry

[Sniper 6,372]

What about a laser instead?

[1LtCAP 4,262]

22 minutes ago, Sniper said:

What about a laser instead?

would def be a cheaper option for quick target acquisition.......

[JohnnyB 4,320]

I have both and my lasers are stuffed in a drawer.  Just my own experience. @High Exposure could chime in with much more practical experience.

[Sniper 6,372]

3 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

would def be a cheaper option for quick target acquisition.......

The plus to a laser is that you don't have to be over the sights. You'll know where the gun is aimed even at the low ready position, or if you have to react quickly in a HD situation or rush the shot. Or, if the perp quickly gets in too close, knocks you down and you can't get over the sights.

[EdF 323]

Negative to lasers . . . The target also sees them . . . 

[High Exposure 5,661]

Laser is a poor substitution for a RDS mounted to your slide.

I have a pretty good chunk of time behind a pistol with an RDS and have taken quite a few classes to teach you how to properly employ them.

I see zero disadvantages to an RDS on a pistol. They excel there for the same reason they do on a rifle or carbine.

They are absolutely worth it and I encourage you to take the plunge.

You want your optic as low in the slide as you can get it. You what your irons as low in the window of the optic as possible. Do not purposefully cowitness your irons and your dot. They are independent of each other and may not line up. That’s OK.

Sage Dynamics (Aaron Cowan) is a great resource when researching RDS pistols and equipment.

Check out Modern SamuraI Project (Scott Jedlinski) on for the best RDS Pistol instruction on the planet. He comes to PA regularly. Worth the drive if you can get in .

Yes. There is a steep learning curve.
Yes. It can be frustrating.

You just have to persevere until the proverbial the lightbulb goes off for you.

Buying quality gear to start and getting quality instruction from a reputable instructor early on in the pistol optics journey make this frustration much less.

27 minutes ago, EdF said:

Negative to lasers . . . The target also sees them . . . 

They also see white light.

They also see you under normal daylight conditions.

So what if they see the laser?

I have no lasers on any full-size pistols. I have tried and always ended up removing them. 

I do have one on a Gen 1 Ruger LCP (this little .380 has virtually no usable sights - they are vestigial nubs milled into the slide, so it’s either the laser, or using the Force) to get hits at 25yards.

I do have lasers on a couple carbines - IMO they are much more useful there than on pistols.

Anyway.... Visible and IR Lasers have their place. On pistols, I don’t think they are as versatile or as useful as a RDS mounted to the slide - but that’s a different conversation.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Lasers are a horrible horrible solution.  Keep in mind - they have to be sighted in and are good only for that distance.  If you engage at a closer or further range - they're completely useless.  Also - if you hold a gun with a laser on a target - it freakin jumps around like crazy.  It's hard to target like that.  It can be used potentially in a panic situation at short ranges - but it's not a good replacement for a red dot.

[Sniper 6,372]

24 minutes ago, Krdshrk said:

It can be used potentially in a panic situation at short ranges -

Isn't that what a home defense situation is?

[ChrisJM981 924]

I found that when using a laser on a pistol I focused too much on the dot placement, which is very wobbly. I've used dots for rifles,  shotguns, AR pistols, and SBRs. I'm a much biggger fan of dots, so I'm having my slide milled for a one. 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

so now it seems i need to go looking for a good slide and dot setup for either my g21 or 19......

[Bully 749]

I will chime and and say...

Situation dictates.

I can think of some situations where I would much rather have a laser on my gun.  I don't currently have any on any guns but only because at the ranges I may shoot defensively in my home, if they're in the wash from my flashlight, they're targeted.  If I had a slightly larger home I would probably have one on my defensive pistol.  
For those that claim that lasers are only good for one given range, well, that's any fixed sight system.  

I shoot competitively with a slide mounted red dot.  I love them.  And to be honest, it's the only way I can reliably see my sights anymore.  They take practice and have a learning curve, but they work very well for their intended purpose.  
As per @High Exposure 's recommendation, I agree and would say that you should spend the money for a quality piece of kit.  For competitive use, I like the Vortex dots.  I have a couple of them and they're great for the money.  I also have an SRO and it's heads and shoulders above the Vortex's but it's also quite a bit more money.  If I was looking for something for a defensive gun, I'd look at a Trijicon RMR.  

Good luck.

[High Exposure 5,661]

4 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

so now it seems i need to go looking for a good slide and dot setup for either my g21 or 19......

you have 4 options - in order of my recommendation based on my experience:

1) Buy a slide that comes with the cut for the optic already there.
- Brownells make a quality slide for a G19 that is very affordable. It comes milled for an RMR/Holosun. https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/slide-parts/slides/rmr-cut-slide-for-glock-19-gen-3-prod134618.aspx
This gives you the ability to swap slides on the frame as you learn, giving you two guns for the price of one. Eventually, you can grab a Glock OEM lower for less than $100 and build up a second gun. This is how I got started. If you hate the dot, you can buy a plate that covers the RMR cut for $30 or so any have a plain G19. Eventually, I decided there was no going back and I sent my original slide to get milled and sold the Brownells slide to a member here (who may have it in the swap meet as we speak).

2) Get a slide milled to accept a dot.
- There are many options. DP Customs is affordable and quick if you want a slide milled. They have done two of mine and come recommended. This is great, but there is really no going back. Cost is around the same as the Brownells slide (for a basic mill job from a quality shop) - but it lacks the versatility of having a second slide to swap back to as you are learning.

3) Buy an MOS Glock and a CHPWS mounting plate.
- Good choice, but expensive. In any case, I prefer a milled slide to an MOS gun. If you go the MOS route, The CHPWS plate is mandatory. The OEM mounting plates and hardware suck. The screws will shear if you shoot enough.

4) Buy a rear sight plate that will accept your dot of choice.
 - This is easily my least preferred method - But, it is the cheapest way to get your toes wet and is completely reversible with bothing more that a Glock sight pusher. Basically, you replace your rear sight with a plate that sits on top of your slide and has a dovetail that replaced your rear sight and your RDS mounts to it. Makes the dot sit very high and there are generally no backup irons (some models have BUIS built in to the mount, but these cost over 1/2 what the Brownells slide will run you).

 

 

[YankeeSC 1,204]

20 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Yes. There is a steep learning curve.
Yes. It can be frustrating.

Why is that?

[High Exposure 5,661]

8 hours ago, YankeeSC said:

Why is that?

The dot is not in the same spot as the irons. It’s easy to lose the dot under recoil until you learn to track it properly. Also, when you put the gun out there on a draw, when you transition to multiple targets, when you shoot on the move, you tend to lose the dot in the window in the beginning.

Remember, on a rifle, you have a cheek weld that lines your head up behind the optic. On a pistol you only have 2 points of contact, with no cheek weld. You don’t have that reference point for your head to line up behind the optic and center the dot in the window.

You will initially be slower, and it feels like taking a step backwards.

You are breaking a habit - and it’s not necessarily a bad habit, just procedural memory that is just a bit “off” for the dot, but still works perfectly for irons. You have to override every bit of training/practice you have ever done with a pistol previously.

Don’t misinterpret - it’s completely worth it, it just takes work.

Recipe for success with a RDS on a pistol:

1) Get quality training early in the transition period
2) Practice
3) Improve
4) Be safe

[Krdshrk 3,877]

36 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

The dot is not in the same spot as the irons. It’s easy to lose the dot under recoil until you learn to track it properly.

Just experienced that this past weekend.  New'ish shooter with a S&W Victory .22LR with a red dot.  Could not find the red dot at all.  It's all about getting the proper sight level.  I pointed it with one hand and immediately found the dot.  

[1LtCAP 4,262]

ON THAT NOTE......do these have paralax(i think that's the right term?) issues if you're not dead on when looking through the window?

 

[High Exposure 5,661]

All optics have parallax - even the ones that assure you they don’t.

It is relatively negligible in the Trijicon RMR 06 and Holosun 407, 507, and 508T - about on par with Aimpoints. I don’t have enough experience with other manufacturers/models to judge. 

[Fred2 367]

I have a red dot an a .22 target pistol.

I shoot tighter groups with the red dot than iron sights.

[AVB-AMG 530]

My initial impression of using a red-dot sight on a hand gun is that it is rather complicated and not as intuitive, let alone as fast to acquire the target as the more traditional iron sights, night sights or fiber optic sights.  It is just one more thing that could go wrong and has to be dealt with as a maintenance issue.  Considering the added weight to the gun, battery life and complexity, I am not sure that they are worth to money, effort or hassle to use them.   To me, the red dot sights seem to make more sense on a rifle, which I have on mine. 

Our home defense handgun has a green laser/gun light combination which seems to work quite well when I have successfully practiced using it at the range in distances from 7-25 yards, achieving close groupings.  I think in a actual real emergency, when one's adrenalin is flowing and one's heart is pumping rapidly, that combination would be more dependable than a handgun with a red dot.  Of course, to each their own....  Just my thoughts.....

AVB-AMG

[High Exposure 5,661]

Shooting a pistol with a red dot is simple - point and click. It doesn’t get more intuitive than that, at least from a hardware standpoint. It’s equally simple software solution as well, you may just need to spend some time and energy to reprogram your computer to use the new gear.

It may not be easy to start, but it is simple.

A RDS is as useful on a pistol as it is on a rifle. Possibly even more so. It is much simpler than using iron sights with its single plane sight picture at all distances. that’s for sure.

As for your other ticks in the “minus” category:

My RMR and Holosun are lighter than your WML weight mere a couple ounces (my RMR02 weights 1.2oz and my 508T weighs 1.75oz).

They also probably have a better battery life than you expect. I’m on 3 years for a single 2032 in my RMR02 that is always on and auto adjusts (the others turn off, so I can’t give you as accurate of a battery life estimate).

With practice, the RDS is much faster and more accurate than irons or a vis-laser all day long.

AVB - Dangerous people whose sole purpose is to hunt evil are all transitioning to RDS equipped pistols. Look as competition shooters that compete in open and carry categories. Their times are regularly faster with the optic gun that the iron sighted gun.

These things don’t happen because the RDS is slower, less reliable, or less accurate.

You need training, not plinking at the range - actual training under the watchful eye of a good instructor. That may not be worth it to you, but that’s the answer to make a pistol RDS work.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

10 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Shooting a pistol with a red dot is simple - point and click. It doesn’t get more intuitive than that, at least from a hardware standpoint. It’s equally simple software solution as well, you may just need to spend some time and energy to reprogram your computer to use the new gear.

It may not be easy to start, but it is simple.

A RDS is as useful on a pistol as it is on a rifle. Possibly even more so. It is much simpler than using iron sights with its single plane sight picture at all distances. that’s for sure.

As for your other ticks in the “minus” category:

My RMR and Holosun are lighter than your WML weight mere a couple ounces (my RMR02 weights 1.2oz and my 508T weighs 1.75oz).

They also probably have a better battery life than you expect. I’m on 3 years for a single 2032 in my RMR02 that is always on and auto adjusts (the others turn off, so I can’t give you as accurate of a battery life estimate).

With practice, the RDS is much faster and more accurate than irons or a vis-laser all day long.

AVB - Dangerous people whose sole purpose is to hunt evil are all transitioning to RDS equipped pistols. Look as competition shooters that compete in open and carry categories. Their times are regularly faster with the optic gun that the iron sighted gun.

These things don’t happen because the RDS is slower, less reliable, or less accurate.

You need training, not plinking at the range - actual training under the watchful eye of a good instructor. That may not be worth it to you, but that’s the answer to make a pistol RDS work.

this is part of why i was asking here. i'd just picked up my g19(after a 6+ $#$% month wait) and someone else in the store had mentioned them. i asked the counter guy his opinion....and he seemed to love them.....but then again(and this is NOT meant to sound like i'm being a dick) his job is also to sell stuff. so i figured if i came here, i'd get good answers, good or bad.

 

 'nother question. say for instance i bought that slide you linked from brownells? do they only fit one specific brand, or are these like the dots for rifles? where they all have a " standard" mounting?

[vladtepes 1,060]

On 12/14/2020 at 12:52 PM, EdF said:

Negative to lasers . . . The target also sees them . . . 

I used to believe this but after doing a lot of shooting in the dark I came to the realization that they are going to also see my multi hundred lumen weapon light also.... but no one is going around yelling about not using a weapon light... 

with that said I am still not a huge fan of lasers.... if you practice the repetition of presenting the firearm the sights come up into your view very fast.. especially at self defense distances.. 

my personal experience with RDS on a pistol... for some people it works very well I have seen shooters shooting very fast with this setup.. with that said.. its not really for me.. I find that with a carbine as you get a cheek weld on the weapon.. the reticle naturally presents itself in view... with a handgun on the other hand for me personallyI find being able to see the iron sights faster than a RDS... as I bring up the handgun sometimes I find myself hunting for the reticle when using the RDS on a pistol... like I said.. that is just my personal experience.. I have seen guys shoot that way very fast.. I prefer good quality night sights and a weapon light...

[vladtepes 1,060]

there is one MAJOR danger in RDS choice that I experienced first hand.. RMR is one of the best micro RDS i have ever seen.. with that said.. the self adjusting one is a no go for self defense weapons IMO... 

every self defense gun should have a WML.... when you use a self adjusting RMR and a WML what happens is the reticle runs very dim in the dark.. because the room is dark.. and when you light up the target the reticle is completely washed out.. in that you can BARELY see it.. this is not good.. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

19 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

ON THAT NOTE......do these have paralax(i think that's the right term?) issues if you're not dead on when looking through the window?

 

 

19 hours ago, High Exposure said:

All optics have parallax - even the ones that assure you they don’t.

It is relatively negligible in the Trijicon RMR 06 and Holosun 407, 507, and 508T - about on par with Aimpoints. I don’t have enough experience with other manufacturers/models to judge. 

I spent a lot of time researching parallax for RDS options. My general consensus is the issue is WAY over blown and comes down to people being really picky about their gear being "perfect". Currently the Trijicon MRO gets terrible reviews for parallax.... I mean its BAD.. yet, I have one and it works flawlessly. When the dot is centered or near center I can get shots on target with good groups at 100 yards. It was the guys laying sideways on the ground playing shooting games that had a hard time centering the dot. But parallax is even an issue with Iron sights, how much will the bullet deviate from POI because your front sight post isn't perfectly center? At least with a RDS, its very easy to tell when the dot is centered, which is why I think the issue is overblow. A RDS was never meant to be a means for "shooting sloppy"

Finding a sight with low parallax can be a problem, even the aimpoint T1/H1 reportedly was bad, but was fixed in the t2/h2. Holosun apparently has Eotech level parallax which is almost non existent. 

Definitely something to consider when purchasing an optic, but really not a big deal if you center that dot enough.  If you can get your hands on the optic your interested in. You can just set it atop a surface, center the dot and focus it on something in the room, and move your head from side to side and see if the dot stays on the object when its at the outer limits of the viewing glass. 

 

[Sniper 6,372]

2 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

At least with a RDS, its very easy to tell when the dot is centered, which is why I think the issue is overblow. A RDS was never meant to be a means for "shooting sloppy"

Isn't that what the laser dot does?

[High Exposure 5,661]

On 12/16/2020 at 9:20 AM, 1LtCAP said:

 'nother question. say for instance i bought that slide you linked from brownells? do they only fit one specific brand, or are these like the dots for rifles? where they all have a " standard" mounting?

Different RDS have different mounting footprints - although some types share a common footprint. 

The Brownells slide is milled to accept the Trijicon RMR (the RMR06 type 2 is gold standard IMO), the Trijicon SRO, and the Holosun 407, 507, 508 optics, and any other optic that uses the RMR footprint.

The Holosun offerings are a lot of optic for the price, they are reliable and well made.

 

[silverado427 10,660]

I would like to get a red dot for my Sig 2022.