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DubbleRNR

Who can legally use a firearm?

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I am not a lawyer and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

This is my answer...

Any of them. In exigent circumstances the rules change.

If there was no emergency you cannot legally give the handgun to any of the other adults because unless you are a qualified instructor you cannot legally do even a temporary transfer in your home. There are specific categories of locations where you can do a temporary transfer.

As all the people are adults there is no requirement to have the pistol locked up. If there were minors present then the law requires that the loaded pistol cannot be access by the minor.

In the event of a sudden, violent attack in your home any of you can use whatever implement as a weapon to defend yourselves. If the pistol is available why wouldn't you pick that over say, a rolling pin?

NB. You still need to satisfy the 5 elements needed to justify using deadly force in self defense.

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41 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Handing it to someone is not a transfer.

Under NJ statutes it is a temporary transfer and there are restrictions on where it may be done. Does it happen all the time in the privacy of people's homes? Sure, but the OP was asking about legality.

2C:58-3.1.  Temporary transfer of firearms
   1.  a.  Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer or disposition of firearms, the legal owner, or a dealer licensed under N.J.S.2C:58-2, may temporarily transfer a handgun, rifle or shotgun to another person who is 18 years of age or older, whether or not the person receiving the firearm holds a firearms purchaser identification card or a permit to carry a handgun. The person to whom a handgun, rifle or shotgun is temporarily transferred by the legal owner of the firearm or a licensed dealer may receive, possess, carry and use that handgun, rifle or shotgun, if the transfer is made upon a firing range operated by a licensed dealer, by a law enforcement agency, a legally recognized military organization or a rifle or pistol club which has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits to the superintendent a list of its members and if the firearm is received, possessed, carried and used for the sole purpose of target practice, trap or skeet shooting, or competition upon that firing range or instruction and training at any location.

   A transfer under this subsection shall be for not more than eight consecutive hours in any 24-hour period and may be made for a set fee or an hourly charge.

   The firearm shall be handled and used by the person to whom it is temporarily transferred only in the actual presence or under the direct supervision of the legal owner of the firearm, the dealer who transferred the firearm or any other person competent to supervise the handling and use of firearms and authorized to act for that purpose by the legal owner or licensed dealer.  The legal owner of the firearm or the licensed dealer shall be on the premises or the property of the firing range during the entire time that the firearm is in the possession of the person to whom it is temporarily transferred.

   The term "legal owner" as used in this subsection means a natural person and does not include an organization, commercial enterprise, or a licensed manufacturer, wholesaler or dealer of firearms.

   b.   Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer and disposition of firearms, a legal owner of a shotgun or a rifle may temporarily transfer that firearm to another person who is 18 years of age or older, whether or not the person receiving the firearm holds a firearms purchaser identification card. The person to whom a shotgun or rifle is temporarily transferred by the legal owner may receive, possess, carry and use that shotgun or rifle in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State for the purposes of hunting if the transfer is made in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State, the shotgun or rifle is legal and appropriate for hunting and the person to whom the firearm is temporarily transferred possesses a valid license to hunt with a firearm, and a valid rifle permit if the firearm is a rifle, obtained in accordance with the provisions of chapter 3 of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes.

   The transfer of a firearm under this subsection shall be for not more than eight consecutive hours in any 24-hour period and no fee shall be charged for the transfer.

   The legal owner of the firearm which is temporarily transferred shall remain in the actual presence or in the vicinity of the person to whom it was transferred during the entire time that the firearm is in that person's possession.

   The term "legal owner" as used in this subsection means a natural person and does not include an organization, commercial enterprise, or a licensed manufacturer, wholesaler or dealer of firearms.

   c.   No firearm shall be temporarily transferred or received under the provisions of subsections a. or b. of this section for the purposes described in section 1 of P.L.1983, c.229 (C.2C:39-14).

   d.   An owner or dealer shall not transfer a firearm to any person pursuant to the provisions of this section if the owner or dealer knows the person does not meet the qualifications set forth in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C:58-3 for obtaining or holding a firearms purchaser identification card or a handgun purchase permit.  A person shall not receive, possess, carry or use a firearm pursuant to the provisions of this section if the person knows he does not meet the qualifications set forth in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C:58-3 for obtaining or holding a firearms purchaser identification card or a handgun purchase permit.
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I just responded to a related question in a thread titled "I'm Pretty Damned Sure That I Already Know the Answer" Its so closely related and even more so on this thread I'm just going to do a copy paste what I responded to him.

 

I read something here on the forum  years ago very closely related to this. There was statutes quoted in that thread, but like I said I read it years ago and I don't remember even exactly what they said. But, this is the scenario:

Guy legally owns a gun and keeps it stored in a closet. Wife knows the gun is there and knows how to use it. Intruder breaks into the house while the wife is home alone and the wife feels her life is in danger (life threat being valid or not is irrelevant in this scenario). Wife gets gun and shoots intruder (shooting the intruder also irrelevant in this scenario).

The conclusions and ramifications: (Regardless of and not withstanding weather or not the shooting was warranted.)

1) The husband/owner gave permission for the wife to take physical possession of the gun (under any circumstances). In New Jersey the husband is guilty of an illegal firearm transfer

2) The wife took physical possession of the gun without the owners/husbands permission. In New Jersey  the wife if guilty of theft of a firearm.

There is an exception to 1). that would be if it were to take place on a licensed firearms range.

Like I said this post was years ago so I don't remember the statute numbers or even the contents of them, but (sadly) they do support the above concussions

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think Mr Stu's response covers a lot of those statutes and text I couldn't remember

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On 1/13/2021 at 7:43 PM, JackDaWack said:

Isn't there a statute that says nothing can prevent you from possessing a firearm in ones home? 

I believe there is, but only applies to the owner. If you are in possession (possession and have access to, are two different things) of someone else's gun anywhere in NJ and don't fall under "2C:58-3.1.  Temporary transfer of firearms", the possession as far as I can see is ILLEGAL..... You can be a firearm owner in NJ without a NJ gun card and legally possess a firearm, i.e. Moved to NJ from another state and brought with you firearms you legally own and are NJ compliant

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On 1/9/2021 at 9:48 AM, Mr.Stu said:

I am not a lawyer and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

This is my answer...

Any of them. In exigent circumstances the rules change.

If there was no emergency you cannot legally give the handgun to any of the other adults because unless you are a qualified instructor you cannot legally do even a temporary transfer in your home. There are specific categories of locations where you can do a temporary transfer.

As all the people are adults there is no requirement to have the pistol locked up. If there were minors present then the law requires that the loaded pistol cannot be access by the minor.

In the event of a sudden, violent attack in your home any of you can use whatever implement as a weapon to defend yourselves. If the pistol is available why wouldn't you pick that over say, a rolling pin?

NB. You still need to satisfy the 5 elements needed to justify using deadly force in self defense.

 

On 1/9/2021 at 11:54 AM, PK90 said:

Handing it to someone is not a transfer.

These are the correct answers.

Do you think any prosecutor would charge someone for preventing someone from killing them?

Do you think a prosecutor would pursue a case where someone used somebody else's gun to shoot someone that was going to kill them?

Okay NJ is one of the worst states for gun laws.  We all know that.  However, show me a case where someone is charged with an illegal transfer for saving their life with someone else's gun.  There are too many people perpetuating the myth you will be charged in NJ no matter what.

 

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3 minutes ago, DubbleRNR said:

Which are?

  1. Innocence - you were not the initial aggressor
  2. Imminence - the threat must be real right now
  3. Proportionality - was the force you use must a reasonable response to the force used by the aggressor
  4. Avoidance - disengage rather than use deadly force if you can so so safely
  5. Reasonableness - your actions must be consistent with what a reasonable, prudent person would do

If you want to know more I recommend a book titled "The law of self defense" by Andrew Branca. There are 291 pages in the book which I cannot condense into a forum post.

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17 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Okay NJ is one of the worst states for gun laws.  We all know that.  However, show me a case where someone is charged with an illegal transfer for saving their life with someone else's gun.  There are too many people perpetuating the myth you will be charged in NJ no matter what.

I totally agree with Griz however you will most likely have to make a statement to the police which should be one word, "lawyer". Having legal council after such an incident is of the utmost importance. A prosecutor will review your statement and may decide what you said could bolster a case against you. Especially an ambitious anti gun one.

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2 hours ago, brucin said:

I totally agree with Griz however you will most likely have to make a statement to the police which should be one word, "lawyer". Having legal council after such an incident is of the utmost importance. A prosecutor will review your statement and may decide what you said could bolster a case against you. Especially an ambitious anti gun one.

I agree with you. Most people should make no statement to the police.  Once you ask for a lawyer the police should not question you.  Contrary to what many will tell you, you don't need a "gun lawyer".  You need a good criminal defense lawyer.  A "gun lawyer" is what you need for technical issues.  Is this a muzzle brake or a flash suppressor?

I remember seeing a video by Masaad Ayoob about what to say after a shooting.  Yes, he said there were some things you could say without admitting you shot the bad guy which will start to establish your justification for the shooting. Most people haven't don't prepare themselves enough to do this. I'll post a link if I can find it.

Another suggestion is tell the police you need to go to hospital.  Your adrenaline will have your heart pumping.

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The lawyer @GRIZ is talking about should be one you know how to reach in an emergency and would be willing to take your call. Most self defense shootings will take place outside the 10-4 Monday to Friday hours of a lawyer. The middle of the night, just after a shooting is not a good time to be shopping for representation.

As far as I know US Law Shield is the only coverage available to NJ residents any more since our wonderful Governor banned self defense insurance policies. I have a policy with them so I know there will be a lawyer on the phone whatever time I call.

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3 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

As far as I know US Law Shield is the only coverage available to NJ residents any more since our wonderful Governor banned self defense insurance policies. I have a policy with them so I know there will be a lawyer on the phone whatever time I call.

I also have them, number is in my phone, also in my wife's phone and kids phone, in case I can't make a call for whatever reason.

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5 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Another suggestion is tell the police you need to go to hospital.  Your adrenaline will have your heart pumping.

I've heard that advice at a few law seminar's I've attended. 

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I have this printed out and ready for reference in my home--just in case:

Massad Ayoob’s Five-Point Checklist

1. Tell responding officers “I’m the victim; he is the perpetrator.”

2. Tell responding officers, “I will sign a complaint.”

3. Point out pertinent evidence.

4. Point out any witnesses who saw what happened.

5. If there is any hint that you are a suspect, say “Officer, you will have my full cooperation after I have counsel here.”

Taken from:  https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/3-most-common-post-shooting-errors

I also recommend Ayoob's excellent book, 'Deadly Force - Understanding Your Right to Self Defense'

For understanding the law and also, just the fact that you know things like like the '21 foot rule,' and the studies by Tueller, will help in your defense.  And being first to dial 911, and stating that you are the victim, etc. helps establish who is the victim and who is the perp.

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whats that darn thing say, anything you say can and will be used against you...

Do you think Gerbal S. Grewel is on yer side???

Ask fer yer lawyer to be present before answering any questions.

When law enforcement uses deadly force, a team of investigative and support teams go into action, with the officer usually given time to address the stressful emotional adrenalin driven episode of what just happened before making an official statement.

Im sure psychiatric eval is needed to return to duty.

 

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On 1/9/2021 at 8:48 AM, DubbleRNR said:

Here's a scenario.  I legally own a pistol and live with 3 other adults that do not have a firearms purchase ID card.  In a home invasion, besides myself, who can leaglly use the pistol for self defense?

 

Your question presumes that the police would be called after the incident and that a body would be found on your floor.

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On 2/1/2021 at 2:14 PM, leahcim said:

For understanding the law and also, just the fact that you know things like like the '21 foot rule,' and the studies by Tueller, will help in your defense.  And being first to dial 911, and stating that you are the victim, etc. helps establish who is the victim and who is the perp.

I forget which Ayoob book this was in, but he suggested you write yourself a dated note explaining what you understand about Tueller (and possibly other pertinent points of self-defense), seal it in an envelope and mail it to yourself. After you get it back postmarked park it in your safe deposit box or equivalent. Then, at a trial where the prosecutor says you just made up your testimony after the fact , your lawyer produces the envelope and unseals it in the presence of the court.

2 hours ago, Bagarocks said:

whats that darn thing say, anything you say can and will be used against you...

And by the way, NOTHING you say will be used in your favor if the prosecutor doesn't want to. And if he doesn't bring it up, your attorney CAN'T. Rules of evidence.

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