antiriad 10 Posted January 14, 2021 Does anyone know how gun purchases are tracked? Do they keep a central database with all weapon owners? My understanding is the the FFL has a record of what you have purchased. Also when they run NICS they only care if you have committed any crimes etc. They don't really know what you are getting. Is this the current case for know or I am missing something. Do states also do their own record keeping of this is only at a federal level? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted January 14, 2021 All handguns sold in NJ on a P2P are kept in a database by NJSP. Records for long guns are kept by NJ FFL and I imagine are turned over to the state when the FFL goes out of business. States with registration laws record handgun and maybe long gun sales. The Federal government has no database on gun sales. If a LE agency requests a trace on a gun, ATF goes to the manufacturer or importer and finds the distributor the gun was originally sent to. The distributor supplies the FFL the gun was sent to. The FFL supplies the person who bought the gun. Joe bought the gun from the FFL and sold it to Charlie. As long as they can find the new owner this system works. There are also older inexpensive guns that were manufactured before 1968 that have no serial number. No way to trace that gun at all. There are several instances where the trace stops. Some examples: 1. Someone buys a gun from someone in a "free" state. No paperwork, no registration. Like buying a hammer in many states. The seller doesn't remember who he sold the gun to. 2. Inherited guns that were bought out of state in a "free" state and willed to someone. I mention this because as long as the heir is not a prohibited person this is one of the rare exceptions someone (the heir) can take possession of a handgun or long gun in another state with no FFL involved. This is legal under Federal and NJ law. There are others but I think I gave you the idea. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Redeye65 160 Posted January 14, 2021 If you sell a rifle while living in NJ to someone in a free state do you need to go through an FFL being in NJ? Say, selling to someone in South Carolina? And the rifle originally being purchased in NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted January 15, 2021 You can sell a rifle to someone who lives in another state but you have to go through a FFL. There, here. or at both ends. Different ways you can do this: 1. Go to SC and meet the buyer at a FFL there and make the transfer. You can do the same thing in NJ if the SC resident has a NJ FID. 2. Ship the rifle to a FFL in SC after you get your money. You can legally ship a firearm to a FFL anywhere in the US. The FFL will want a copy of your driver's license so he can log where it came from. Some FFLs will only accept firearms shipped by another FFL. You'll have to take the rifle to a FFL in NJ who will ship it to a FFL in SC. Don't worry about the rifle being originally purchased in NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chencaerulescens 15 Posted January 15, 2021 20 hours ago, GRIZ said: All handguns sold in NJ on a P2P are kept in a database by NJSP. Records for long guns are kept by NJ FFL and I imagine are turned over to the state when the FFL goes out of business. The ATF's National Tracing Center's (NTC) Out-Of-Business Records Center retains all records from out of business FFLs since 1986. Records older than 20 years are also retained since 2004. ATF can search records of manufacturers, wholesalers and dealers online. Only the ATF/NTC is authorized to trace firearms for law enforcement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RUTGERS95 889 Posted January 15, 2021 I thought they were specifically prohibited from retaining records even so much so that the budget has a clause preventing funds for it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
15636215 454 Posted January 15, 2021 For the last few years FFLs are required to keep a separate file for the nasty assault rifles! I guess so when beto wants to come get them! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted January 15, 2021 When I left NJ, the State did not want the COEs, SAW book, or ammo log book, so they were destroyed. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njJoniGuy 2,129 Posted January 15, 2021 1 hour ago, PK90 said: When I left NJ, the State did not want the COEs, SAW book, or ammo log book, so they were destroyed. I'm picturing a bonfire on the Central Ave lawn with the neighboring Ancora residents dancing naked around the fire! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chencaerulescens 15 Posted January 15, 2021 2 hours ago, PK90 said: When I left NJ, the State did not want the COEs, SAW book, or ammo log book, so they were destroyed. Federal law requires FFL's no longer in business forward their records to ATF in Martinsburg, WV within 30 days. The penalty for noncompliance can range up to $250,000 and/or 5 years in prison. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chencaerulescens 15 Posted January 15, 2021 11 hours ago, RUTGERS95 said: I thought they were specifically prohibited from retaining records even so much so that the budget has a clause preventing funds for it? In 1979 Congress passed an appropriation restriction that prohibited ATF from "consolidating or centralizing within the Department of the Treasury the records of receipt and disposition of firearms maintained by Federal firearms licensees" The ATF has "persuaded" manufacturers, wholesalers and some dealers to keep their data in electronic form which can be accessed quickly. Apparently the Out-Of-Business and 20 year old data databases have not been found to be contrary to Federal law due to an ATF "broader interpretation" in the 1990s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdF 323 Posted January 15, 2021 16 hours ago, Redeye65 said: If you sell a rifle while living in NJ to someone in a free state do you need to go through an FFL being in NJ? Say, selling to someone in South Carolina? And the rifle originally being purchased in NJ. If the buyer and seller do not reside in the same state, an FFL is ALWAYS required. This has nothing to do with any state laws. Inter-state commerce is the purview of the federal government. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
always_an_eagle 165 Posted January 15, 2021 In NJ, there is a defacto registration with the handgun permit scheme. The number on your FID card is actually a NJ SBI number, same number as it would be for a criminal arrest or record of an individual. Using the NCIC 2000 NJ state database, law enforcement can do a firearms check on an individual. Handguns that are acquired legally within the state with handgun permits are on here (manufacturer, model, caliber). With the old paper permits, it could take months or even years for this info to be inputted, but I suspect with the new E-permits registration info it can be inputted faster. There isn't long gun registration in this state, but if an individual has an FID card and has no handguns, then their name and SBI number will still pop up on a firearm search. This is on the state's level. Hope that answers your question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DirtyDigz 1,793 Posted January 15, 2021 For handgun tracing in NJ pretty sure they'll start with NJSP records on handgun purchases first and if no hit then they'll go to ATF. For long gun/other tracing, anyone know if they go to ATF first? Description of the ATF process, in the context of a recent "bad actor" FFL crime: https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2020/12/douche-move.html I think I've explained the way the firearms tracing system works here in the U.S. before, but just in case you weren't here for that post, I'll do it again. Say the po-po encounter a "crime gun", either discarded at the scene of the crime or in the possession of a criminal suspect. What they do is contact the National Tracing Center at the BATFE, and initiate a trace on the gun and that goes something like this: At the scene of a messy and very ballistic turf dispute between some unlicensed pharmaceutical distributors, the cops find a Blastomatic 2000 in a dead guy's hand. They initiate a trace with the National Tracing Center on Blastomatic 2000, serial number 123XYZ. The BATFE contacts Blastomatic and inquires as to the disposition of that particular serial number. Blastomatic checks their records and tells the feds that it had been shipped to Very Big Wholesale Co., Incorporated, out in Texas. The feds then contact VBWC Inc. and ask about the disposition of 123XYZ. Very Big Wholesale informs the feds that they shipped the gun to The Gun Rack in McAllen, Texas. So next the feds call The Gun Rack, who checks their bound book and determines that the gun in question was sold to one Jorge Martinez a year ago. Now the feds contact Mr. Martinez and ask him why the Blastomatic 2000, serial number 123XYZ, which he purchased from The Gun Rack in McAllen, Texas last year was found on the body of a dead gangster. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted January 17, 2021 On 1/15/2021 at 7:32 AM, chencaerulescens said: Federal law requires FFL's no longer in business forward their records to ATF in Martinsburg, WV within 30 days. The penalty for noncompliance can range up to $250,000 and/or 5 years in prison. We're talking about NJ records here. They don't want them. Obviously, ATF wants the 4473s and Bound Books, and they got them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted January 17, 2021 On 1/15/2021 at 7:01 AM, njJoniGuy said: I'm picturing a bonfire on the Central Ave lawn with the neighboring Ancora residents dancing naked around the fire! Soooo, how often do you dream of naked dancing mental patients? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njJoniGuy 2,129 Posted January 17, 2021 39 minutes ago, PK90 said: Soooo, how often do you dream of naked dancing mental patients? Ever since I watched the last 2 Democrat conventions! 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chencaerulescens 15 Posted January 17, 2021 17 hours ago, PK90 said: We're talking about NJ records here. They don't want them. Obviously, ATF wants the 4473s and Bound Books, and they got them. You're talking about NJ records here...but the subject was how guns are tracked. NJ no longer needs the Out-Of-Business records because the pertinent info has already forwarded to the ATF for tracking. NJ only needs to keep info that the Feds are prohibited by law from retaining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted January 17, 2021 @chencaerulescens I should have quoted the following so as to avoid confusion > On 1/13/2021 at 11:17 PM, GRIZ said: All handguns sold in NJ on a P2P are kept in a database by NJSP. Records for long guns are kept by NJ FFL and I imagine are turned over to the state when the FFL goes out of business. I responded clarifying the State's process > On 1/15/2021 at 5:12 AM, PK90 said: When I left NJ, the State did not want the COEs, SAW book, or ammo log book, so they were destroyed. You quoted me and referenced the Federal process as follows > On 1/15/2021 at 7:32 AM, chencaerulescens said: Federal law requires FFL's no longer in business forward their records to ATF in Martinsburg, WV within 30 days. The penalty for noncompliance can range up to $250,000 and/or 5 years in prison. I further clarified that I was talking about the State process > 20 hours ago, PK90 said: We're talking about NJ records here. They don't want them. Obviously, ATF wants the 4473s and Bound Books, and they got them. I thought the highlighted portion above clarified my response. 3 hours ago, chencaerulescens said: You're talking about NJ records here...but the subject was how guns are tracked. NJ no longer needs the Out-Of-Business records because the pertinent info has already forwarded to the ATF for tracking. NJ only needs to keep info that the Feds are prohibited by law from retaining. Which is? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chencaerulescens 15 Posted January 18, 2021 19 minutes ago, PK90 said: I should have quoted the following so as to avoid confusion > I responded clarifying the State's process > You quoted me and referenced the Federal process as follows > I further clarified that I was talking about the State process > I thought the highlighted portion above clarified my response. "NJ only needs to keep info that the Feds are prohibited by law from retaining." Which is? Again, as stated previously above, Congress passed an appropriation restriction that prohibited ATF from "consolidating or centralizing within the Department of the Treasury the records of receipt and disposition of firearms maintained by Federal firearms licensees." They do however maintain a database containing Out-Of-Business records using the loophole that they are no longer maintained. It is more efficient for NJ LEO to reference the Federal Out-Of-Business ATF database electronically than to track down the paper in storage or build and maintain their own electronic library. Just an explanation of why NJ doesn't need the records. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdF 323 Posted January 18, 2021 Here's the thing . . . The NJSP and the ATF don't need the records because their jobs are to solve crimes and none of the weapons used in crimes have paperwork that could allow them to be traced. They weren't transferred at FFLs . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chencaerulescens 15 Posted January 18, 2021 For the last record year ATF claims: Prosecutions 11,319 Indictments 8,360 Convictions 6,887 Criminal group and gang cases 1,690 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old_Hunter 28 Posted January 19, 2021 The “top recovery cities” in NJ are an easy guess. https://www.atf.gov/FILE/147136/download Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites