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USMC1341

Handguns, 30 days and related questions

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I'm sure this has been discussed here thoroughly, but I keep getting conflicting information. My goal here is to act as a responsible legal citizen and avoid self imposing restrictions that don't really exist in the law. My questions are around the 30 days between handgun purchase requirement:

Restriction on number of firearms person may purchase. Only one handgun shall be purchased or delivered on each permit and no more than one handgun shall be purchased within any 30-day period, but this limitation shall not apply to....

My interpretation (which is probably meaningless)  is that the intent is to prevent the good people of NJ with handgun permits from taking possession of a new handgun every 30 days, because too much of a good thing will kill us all. However it says "purchase within any 30-day period", not take possession of. Purchasing indicates to me a financial transaction and has little to nothing to do with whether you have possession of an item. I purchase stuff on Amazon all the time, but I don't have possession until they deliver it. How has this law been applied in NJ? Do they really enforce the purchase within 30 days, or do they enforce the possession within 30 days?

Is it legal to purchase a handgun on Feb 1st from LGS, and then purchase another one on Feb 2nd and wait until 30 days from Feb 1 to begin your paperwork at your FFL to then take "possession" of said handgun? For that matter can you purchase 2, 3, 4... 1000 handguns on a single day, and simply not take possession of each one until you have your a valid handgun permit and it's been 30 days between each?

I'm not expecting legal advice, and I'm not going to take any comments or responses as such unless you are actually an attorney and I pay you for such advice.

My assumption here is that this is one of those laws that is loosely defined and understood, and could be enforced on the whim of the DA but wondering how this is typically handled because I've been told different things by different people. This should be well understood I think by FFL's and no offense to any here, but that doesn't mean that FFL's even know for sure and don't impose restrictions on themselves doing transactions with customers to play it safe to stay within the law, which I totally understand. No one wants to be caught with their pants down while exercising their rights or providing the service to citizens choosing to do so. We don't need to get into the debate about any law being a roadblock to exercising a constitutional right should be considered an infringement. The law sounds simple and clear to the layman, but with the other requirements around handgun purchases, actual execution in the real world is another story. I'm interested to hear people's thoughts.

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11 minutes ago, USMC1341 said:

Is it legal to purchase a handgun on Feb 1st from LGS, and then purchase another one on Feb 2nd and wait until 30 days from Feb 1 to begin your paperwork at your FFL to then take "possession" of said handgun? For that matter can you purchase 2, 3, 4... 1000 handguns on a single day, and simply not take possession of each one until you have your a valid handgun permit and it's been 30 days between each?

I guess it depends on the definition of "purchase". Many FFL's will "hold" a handgun for you until you get your permits, or until the next one is eligible. If the FFL makes you pay for it in full, or just takes a deposit will depend on the FFL. Then, when the 30 days are up, they run the NICS, and you take possession and you're on your way.

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1 minute ago, Sniper said:

I guess it depends on the definition of "purchase". Many FFL's will "hold" a handgun for you until you get your permits, or until the next one is eligible. If the FFL makes you pay for it in full, or just takes a deposit will depend on the FFL. Then, when the 30 days are up, they run the NICS, and you take possession and you're on your way.

This is what I see in practice, but this isn't what the law says.

Also, there seems to be some discrepancy on when you can process your next NICS for handgun. Is it 30 days from your last NICS? Or is it 30 days from when you pick up the handgun?... which we all no nowadays is going to be at the earliest within 3 biz days from when you start NICS if you're lucky.

Sorry, that's throwing even more gas on the fire with questions about practice and what's actually required by law.

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3 minutes ago, USMC1341 said:

This is what I see in practice, but this isn't what the law says.

The first problem is, you're expecting the law to be followed... well... ask that question to people who wait multiple months for permits, that by law, should be completed in 30 days..

4 minutes ago, USMC1341 said:

Is it 30 days from your last NICS? Or is it 30 days from when you pick up the handgun?... which we all no nowadays is going to be at the earliest within 3 biz days from when you start NICS if you're lucky.

Someone with more knowledge needs to chime in if they know if NICS will actually allow a check in less than 30 days. I believe it will, but I'm not totally sure.

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Here's an interesting question/problem. I recently purchased a Beretta off a dealer from Florida off Armslist and had it shipped to the FFL here in NJ. The FFL received the Beretta but when I went to go through the paperwork bullshit the store is closed for two weeks due to Covid situation. So, now I have to wait at least 3 weeks to take possession because they will be closed until February 12th and it will be at least another week for the NICS bullshit to go through. Of course this screws up the pistol timelines and etc. I was considering going to another shop to see if I could find something I like but I am told since I purchased that Beretta I have to wait now. 

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Sorry to hear that RobCo, and I definitely don't know the answer. But situations like this is exactly why I asked the question. Also, it may be stated elsewhere in the law (I think it is, but it may also just be my assumption based on how we handle things here in NJ), but here's another question. What if it isn't a purchase? What if someone gifts you a gun. I'm not talking about family member transfers, etc.. I mean literally you get gifted a handgun. Or maybe you win a raffle, etc... That isn't a purchase, so setting aside whether you need a Handgun Purchase Permit or not aside (because that's even another layer of questions), what if you just purchased a handgun, then win a handgun in a raffle, or contest, etc... Do you need to wait 30 days? And I say "need to wait" but I should ask: By law, am I required to wait 30 days? Because it's not a purchase. We might make someone wait 30 days, and an FFL may not submit your paperwork, and / or the NJSP, might deny you... but by law, is it actually legal, since it's not a purchase. The law is pretty clear that the 30 days is for purchase.

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On the paper work you fill out there is a transaction date, when I get home I can look at my old permits and tell you exactly which date you go by, if I remember correctly it is the date your FFL puts on the permit when you pick it up. On a long gun paper work, there is only one date, it is 30 days from that date, I wait 31 days because I am anal. I have bought multiple handguns at once and had my FFL hold them until my 30 days are up and can run the NICS.

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50 minutes ago, Redeye65 said:

On the paper work you fill out there is a transaction date, when I get home I can look at my old permits and tell you exactly which date you go by, if I remember correctly it is the date your FFL puts on the permit when you pick it up. On a long gun paper work, there is only one date, it is 30 days from that date, I wait 31 days because I am anal. I have bought multiple handguns at once and had my FFL hold them until my 30 days are up and can run the NICS.

I hear ya, and this seems to be the common practice, however where in the law does it say this? Back to my point, what is actually enforceable by law? The law says purchase every 30 days, but it doesn't say anything about date of transfer. I could be really, really wrong about this, but it seems like everyone has communally figured out a way to try to comply with the law in a way that seems sorta logical, but it doesn't really appear to be in line with what the law actually says.

We do things like this:

Purchase 2 handguns today, use one permit today, wait for NICS to come back, transfer 1 handgun. Wait 30 (or 31 days to be safe), go back to FFL and start NICS for handgun 2.

But the law says "purchase" not transfer into possession.

It would seem this would be more in line with the law:

Buy one handgun today, wait 30 (or 31 days) to be safe, purchase another handgun, then process 2 permits for both handguns. Wait for NICS to come back clear, take 2 handguns home. As long as I have a permit for each handgun this would appear to be fine, but my guess is one or both permits would get denied in the NICS system because they weren't done 30 days apart.

I know it sounds ridiculous, and I'm not advocating for the second one, but you see my point. The law says purchase every 30 days, it says nothing about transferring into possession. And neither one accomplishes anything better than the other. In fact my proposal around what I think may actually be legal according to how it's worded could be considered worse. I'm wondering if we just all go along with what the state has deemed acceptable to do, but that under the law, everyone is doing it wrong, to include us citizens, the FFLs and the authorities. Maybe the NJSP and attorney general have provided guidance to FFLs on what's kosher and what's not.

Anyways, I'll shut up about this now. It's just so poorly written and not in line with all the other hoops and hurdles to even obtain a handgun in the first place, if it wasn't so bad it'd actually be funny.

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1 hour ago, Redeye65 said:

On the paper work you fill out there is a transaction date, when I get home I can look at my old permits and tell you exactly which date you go by, if I remember correctly it is the date your FFL puts on the permit when you pick it up. On a long gun paper work, there is only one date, it is 30 days from that date, I wait 31 days because I am anal. I have bought multiple handguns at once and had my FFL hold them until my 30 days are up and can run the NICS.

There is no 30 day limit on long guns. You can transfer as many as you want every day of the week except Sundays and holidays and declared emergencies when NJNICS is closed.

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@USMC1341 you are making the assumption that the politicians that passed these laws have any logic or sense to actually write down anything workable.

I can see your point, but that's not how it works in practice.

It is also important to note that the 30 days starts on the day after your last transfer so it is 31 days effectively.

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@Mr.Stu Believe me I'm not under any misconception that politicians creating these laws have any level of logic. Complete and utter unlogical thinking goes into every one of these.

@45Doll I appreciate that the transfer date on the permit is all that matters. But why? I'm not trying to argue here by any means or spread any misinformation. I'm legitimately asking where this is defined by law, because all I've read in regards to this is that you can only purchase a handgun every 30 days. Transfer date, or date of taking legal possession doesn't appear to be mentioned, although it may be implied.

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8 hours ago, RobCo said:

Here's an interesting question/problem. I recently purchased a Beretta off a dealer from Florida off Armslist and had it shipped to the FFL here in NJ. The FFL received the Beretta but when I went to go through the paperwork bullshit the store is closed for two weeks due to Covid situation. So, now I have to wait at least 3 weeks to take possession because they will be closed until February 12th and it will be at least another week for the NICS bullshit to go through. Of course this screws up the pistol timelines and etc. I was considering going to another shop to see if I could find something I like but I am told since I purchased that Beretta I have to wait now. 

What FFL?

They should have offered to ship it to another FFL.

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Well maybe think of it this way. "Purchase" means I give you some money and you give me a thing in return. If I hand you some money then leave, I haven't purchased anything, I've just handed you money. So I've only purchased something from you once both things have happened: I give you money, then I take my object home. So if I leave a pile of cash with my gun store then come back 29 days later to get my gun, the act of "purchasing" isn't complete until my gun is in my possession and I'm driving away from the gun store. Perhaps if we consider the literal definition of "to purchase," that might explain why the transfer date is the only thing taken into consideration for purposes of calculating 30 days.

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1 hour ago, USMC1341 said:

 I appreciate that the transfer date on the permit is all that matters. But why?

"You are free to speculate. I couldn't possibly comment."

Francis Urquhart, House of Cards 

I'm not interested in legal gymnastics. I just want to occasionally buy handguns. And that's the way it works.

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@Dr. Goodshot I agree you could look at it that way. However... what if I purchase from somewhere out of state and have it shipped to an FFL. I've "purchased" something from vendor X and had it shipped to FFL Y. At that point my financial transaction for a handgun has completed with vendor x once it's delivered to the FFL. The rest is legal paper pushing more or less to satisfy the feds and the state. I know I'm actually making an argument that makes the current law even worse, and I'm glad that isn't what we practice. I'm not expecting it to suddenly be handled differently, nor am I saying I want it to be. Is there a point to this? Mostly I'm trying to just understand how to follow the actual law, despite what is common practice. I feel like there must be some piece I'm missing. But I suspect there isn't. This is just how everyone does it.

@45Doll I'm with you, and I've just gone with the flow. The thing that makes me feel uneasy is how clear as mud it is, yet how unfriendly the state is towards ownership. Mostly I was trying to see if I missed something and it was more clearly defined somewhere or the AG, or NJSP had provided some guidance or something.

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1 hour ago, USMC1341 said:

The thing that makes me feel uneasy is how clear as mud it is, yet how unfriendly the state is towards ownership.

It's been like that for a while, they do it on purpose. The more "gray" the areas, the more freedom it gives the state to exploit them. This state doesn't like gun owners, that should be very clear.

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4 hours ago, USMC1341 said:

@Mr.Stu Believe me I'm not under any misconception that politicians creating these laws have any level of logic. Complete and utter unlogical thinking goes into every one of these.

Yet you continue to try to find reason in the way it works. :facepalm:

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"Purchase" means "Acquire" in NJ Law. It's the way it is. Get over it. If you don't believe or want to follow it, acquire a handgun or have someone gift you one without a "Permit to Purchase a Handgun."

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15 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

There is no 30 day limit on long guns. You can transfer as many as you want every day of the week except Sundays and holidays and declared emergencies when NJNICS is closed.

technically, you can transfer a firearm any day, 365 days a year as long as the NICS check was approved........

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If you buy a gun from an out-of-state dealer and they ship it to your FFL, sure you purchased the gun from them but I would still say the purchase isn't complete until you take possession.

As for receiving a gun as a gift, where it's not a purchase, note that the law doesn't only talk about purchasing. 2c:58-2a(7) also says that "a dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person within a 30-day period."

But I imagine you will argue that this says "A dealer," so you perhaps believe that you could have a gun transferred to you one day, then the next day have the gift gun transferred to a different dealer, and have that dealer do the background check and transfer the gun to you less than 30 days after you got the first gun. But from what I understand the State Police looks at the transfer date on your permit, and if it is less than 30 days after the date on the previous permit, they might give you a call and say "Hey, what's up?" I guess you would then argue that "hey, I didn't PURCHASE two guns in 30 days. One was a gift. And no dealer knowingly delivered me more than one gun within 30 days so what's the problem?" I suppose you could argue that based on the way the law is written, but that's certainly not the way it's practiced from what I understand, so you would probably want to have a good lawyer on retainer if you wanted to try this.

 

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On 1/30/2021 at 9:59 PM, Dr. Goodshot said:

As for receiving a gun as a gift, where it's not a purchase, note that the law doesn't only talk about purchasing. 2c:58-2a(7) also says that "a dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person within a 30-day period."

Yep... I wouldn't want to try that argument myself. I think you clarified how the law works best as it relates to how it is executed. I missed the clause regarding "a dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person".

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