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1LtCAP

my "fun" of late

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so i acquired a 2009 outback. it came in with a blown timing belt. bent 15 of 16 valves. customer didn't want to repair, sold me the car. i pulled the heads, sent them out, all new valves guides, etc. put back together. new plugs. didn't touch the wires, as they look relatively recently replaced. car runs beautiful, 'cept for a pretty serious hesitation off idle. or from cruise if i hit the throttle hard.

 from idle, it's nasty. in park/neutral, i can floor the throttle, and count out almost 2 full seconds before the engine revs. in gear it's slightly quicker, but still not right. there are no codes, no pending codes and no history codes.  with misfire monitors showing on the scanner, there's nothing coming up. no codes. maf was dirty, so i cleaned, then changed. air filter's good. no external fuel filter. can't get good reading on the air/fuel ratio sensor through the scanner....gonna hafta scope that and the o2. cat's not clogged, 'cause this puppy gets up and goes(for what they are) once it's past that initial bog.

 i can't test it by adding fuel as i snap the throttle, 'cause it's throttle by wire...so no way for me(working alone) to snap the throttle from under the hood as i add another fuel source. i didn't bother checking timing belt alignment, 'cause i did that before even trying to start the engine. plus even 1 tooth off it'd set a code.

 it's making me nuts that i can't figure out what should be a simple problem. i'm down to guessing now.....and the next guess is that throttle body, 'cause it also contains the iac....and in throttle by cable vehicles i've seen bad iac cause this type of problem.

 

 fun huh?

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Is it running open loop?  It'll run fine WOT in open loop and fall on it's face otherwise.  Is it running in an Econ mode?  Maybe it's stuck in that mode. 

 My neighbor is a Subaru Master technician, if I see him tomorrow, I'll run it past him.

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52 minutes ago, Malsua said:

 

Is it running open loop?  It'll run fine WOT in open loop and fall on it's face otherwise.  Is it running in an Econ mode?  Maybe it's stuck in that mode. 

 My neighbor is a Subaru Master technician, if I see him tomorrow, I'll run it past him.

i didn't notice if it was open or closed loop. something that did strike me though was that when i was looking at the data, everything was on...fan relays(even though the fans were off), a/c compressor showed on even though it was off, light switch, rear defog switch, brakelight switch....all showed on. constantly.

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4 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

Bad ECM?

i'm hoping not, and thinking not. it's not very common for them go go bad anymore.

 

 i'm kinda leaning towards a bad throttle body assembly, but i'd like to be more sure before dropping the coin.....they're expensive

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12 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

i'm hoping not, and thinking not. it's not very common for them go go bad anymore.

 

 i'm kinda leaning towards a bad throttle body assembly, but i'd like to be more sure before dropping the coin.....they're expensive

What about a junk yard throttle body?

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How much, and how much of a bitch, are replacing the O2 sensors? You didn't list mileage but if it's up there in the 6 figures, I'd probably do them.  I've seen, and experienced, wonky/bad/damaged O2 sensors do what you're talking about, and never throw a code.

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1 hour ago, JohnnyB said:

What about a junk yard throttle body?

i don't like using junkyard stuff for electronics. had bad experiences with them.

25 minutes ago, Sota said:

How much, and how much of a bitch, are replacing the O2 sensors? You didn't list mileage but if it's up there in the 6 figures, I'd probably do them.  I've seen, and experienced, wonky/bad/damaged O2 sensors do what you're talking about, and never throw a code.

o2's shouldn't be too bad.....the front one's an air/fuel ratio sensor, so it's probably right around 200 bucks.....

 

i picked up a nozzle for a handheld propane tank tonight. gonna use that with a long section of vacuum hose to enrichen the mixture as i snap the throttle. if it smoothes the thing out, then i'll go looking in the fuel system. i shoulda checked fuel pressure today, but didn't.

 

i dont think it's gonna be in the ignition system anywhere, 'cause i've never seen plugs/wires/coil pack work well at idle, then fail, then work well at high speed. and as previously mentioned, wires look new-ish. new plugs installed with cylinder head job. mileage is abour 125k

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A little off the wall . . . I'm usually pretty good deep diving into the web to find solutions to this type of stuff.

I quickly came a across an "Electrical Grounding Mod" that seems to have solved a lot of Subaru problems from that period.  The problem is that I can't find a good description of the modification.

As I read, the grounds on these cars have a tendency to corrode, causing "extra" grounds.  This causes noise from the alternator and other sources to interfere with proper signals to the computer and other components.  Hesitation off idle is one of the clearly stated problems.  

From an engineering point of view, I can . . . kind of . . . see that.

There the best explanation I could find without spending the kind of time that I would if it were my car:

https://imgur.com/a/s24ll#uM2Qe6b

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On 2/7/2021 at 12:28 PM, EdF said:

A little off the wall . . . I'm usually pretty good deep diving into the web to find solutions to this type of stuff.

I quickly came a across an "Electrical Grounding Mod" that seems to have solved a lot of Subaru problems from that period.  The problem is that I can't find a good description of the modification.

As I read, the grounds on these cars have a tendency to corrode, causing "extra" grounds.  This causes noise from the alternator and other sources to interfere with proper signals to the computer and other components.  Hesitation off idle is one of the clearly stated problems.  

From an engineering point of view, I can . . . kind of . . . see that.

There the best explanation I could find without spending the kind of time that I would if it were my car:

https://imgur.com/a/s24ll#uM2Qe6b

thanks for that! cleaned all the grounds, even though they were mostly off when i had the heads and intake off. didn't add any yet. couldn't get my friggin $5k scanner to tell me if it was in open or closed loop, but my 20 buck actron quick reader did show me to be in open loop.

 

 i used a propane tank with a looonnnngggg hose to the intake tube to fatten up the mixture...no change. yanked a vacuum hose to lean it out....no change.

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Just to show my ignorance . . . When you fatten up the mixture that way does it really fatten it up if the computer is telling the injection system to stay lean?  I'm not clear on WHERE in the system you are adding fuel.

But, it sounds like a computer problem, which might be fixed by new grounds and/or a reset.  If you didn't clean the grounds down to bare metal while doing the previous work you may have just hooked them back up to corroded metal?

Obviously, let us know what happens!

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1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

thanks for that! cleaned all the grounds, even though they were mostly off when i had the heads and intake off. didn't add any yet. couldn't get my friggin $5k scanner to tell me if it was in open or closed loop, but my 20 buck actron quick reader did show me to be in open loop.

 

 i used a propane tank with a looonnnngggg hose to the intake tube to fatten up the mixture...no change. yanked a vacuum hose to lean it out....no change.

Ah, if it's in open loop, your MAF, O2s, all the rest are being ignored.    Bad 02s will keep it in open loop, specially if one is grounding out, shorting or missing as far as the ECM is concerned.

Check all the connectors on the 02s underneath. You might have a crusty one.   Also, pop open the fuse box and lift the base of the fuse box up.   There's 6 clips that hold it in.  You might find a corroded wire under there.  It's a very common problem on these era Subarus.

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2 hours ago, EdF said:

Just to show my ignorance . . . When you fatten up the mixture that way does it really fatten it up if the computer is telling the injection system to stay lean?  I'm not clear on WHERE in the system you are adding fuel.

But, it sounds like a computer problem, which might be fixed by new grounds and/or a reset.  If you didn't clean the grounds down to bare metal while doing the previous work you may have just hooked them back up to corroded metal?

Obviously, let us know what happens!

yea. with normal o2 sensors, i can watch the upstream sensor, and get an idea of what it's doing. these use an air/fuel ratio sensor, and we can't read them through the scanner as we can a normal o2. so to see if there's any problem in the fuel system.....either too rich or too lean for whatever reason, i use propane to artificially enrichen the mixture.....and create a vacuum leak to artificially lean it out. so yes....."fatten it up" means to make it run richer. i added the fuel in through the air intake tube. if she was lean, this should've been enough to kill or change the problem.....so now i know i don't need to look in the fuel system.

 i'd cleaned the grounds this am before starting work on customers cars.....didn't change anything.

1 hour ago, Malsua said:

Ah, if it's in open loop, your MAF, O2s, all the rest are being ignored.    Bad 02s will keep it in open loop, specially if one is grounding out, shorting or missing as far as the ECM is concerned.

Check all the connectors on the 02s underneath. You might have a crusty one.   Also, pop open the fuse box and lift the base of the fuse box up.   There's 6 clips that hold it in.  You might find a corroded wire under there.  It's a very common problem on these era Subarus.

shit....i typed open loop. it was in closed loop. what the hell was i thinking?

 

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So I finally was able to talk to my buddy.

He says it's 99% the throttle body.   Take it out and clean it.   Says it has water through it, so you have to flop it on one side then the other to clean.  Not sure what that means, I've never taken one out.

There's also a "ring" that forms on those(or maybe it's a spacer ring???).  Again, not sure what he's talking about, but clean that. heh.

Also commented that he's never liked the throttle response on those years. quote "The throttle response on the EJ253 is shit" heh.  This is a guy who also ran a 700HP Mustang for years, he knows what a proper throttle response should be :)

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38 minutes ago, Malsua said:

 

So I finally was able to talk to my buddy.

He says it's 99% the throttle body.   Take it out and clean it.   Says it has water through it, so you have to flop it on one side then the other to clean.  Not sure what that means, I've never taken one out.

There's also a "ring" that forms on those(or maybe it's a spacer ring???).  Again, not sure what he's talking about, but clean that. heh.

Also commented that he's never liked the throttle response on those years. quote "The throttle response on the EJ253 is shit" heh.  This is a guy who also ran a 700HP Mustang for years, he knows what a proper throttle response should be :)

thanks man!

 i had the throttle body off last week, and it was filthy. i cleaned that pretty good. there was a passage i could see, but couldn't get into it that well, so i just sprayed the crap outta it with carb cleaner.

 what he meant by water in it, is that most cars like this have coolant passages going through the throttle body to warm them up a bit.

 

i agree that quite a few "throttle by wire" vehicles have suck-ass throttle response, toyota is the worst. i've never had another subaru with this bad of a response.

 i took it home last night again. same thing. in tip-in from say 40-50mph to accelerate a little i get a helluva delay/shake. off idle? ferget it.

 

i might just hafta put out the loot and take a shot on the throttle body. i hate replacing parts when i'm not 100% dammit.

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He did also mention something about loose cam timing but it's probably the throttle body.   Something in the valve train gets out of spec, but it's probably not that.  I don't recall exactly what it is.   I've never done much work on the variable cam timing engines, so I don't have a thorough grasp on how it all ties together.   Pretty much everything else should be throwing codes.

If you wanted to bribe him with some primers(he's a gun guy too), he'd probably diagnose it for you :).

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Malsua said:

 

He did also mention something about loose cam timing but it's probably the throttle body.   Something in the valve train gets out of spec, but it's probably not that.  I don't recall exactly what it is.   I've never done much work on the variable cam timing engines, so I don't have a thorough grasp on how it all ties together.   Pretty much everything else should be throwing codes.

If you wanted to bribe him with some primers(he's a gun guy too), he'd probably diagnose it for you :).

 

 

 

in theory everything with the valve timing's on the money.....i don't think i could be off on the timing belt without tripping a timing code. when i watch the oil control solenoids for the vvt they seem to be doing what they're told.........i may end up taking him up on that, but i don't have any primers.....

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hadn't worked on this in awhile. had it in the bay just now. found 2 ground issues. both of the ground straps to the cylinder heads from frame were fubar. replaced, no change. cleaned every ground i could find. tried the idle relearn....the battery disconnect way. nada. solus doesnt have the option. something i noticed. when i'm scrolling in data, everything's showing on. a/c signal, rear defogger, idle switch, etc. stuff that isn't turned on. never seen that before.

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now it's getting weirder. was a little slow this am. so since the car was still in the bay, i screwed with it a little more. hooked up my launch scanner. it's chinese. in that, i found some codes in the bcm, and a couple canbus codes. all showed as being history. so i went through each module individually, and cleared memory. in the parking lot(ran outta time, can't test drive till later..prolly take it home tonight) it feels significantly better when i punch the throttle.

 it kinda pisses me off that my $6k snap on scanner didn't pick this shit up, but my $1k chinese knockoff scanner did

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1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

it kinda pisses me off that my $6k snap on scanner didn't pick this shit up, but my $1k chinese knockoff scanner did

A couple of years ago, my mechanic's Snap On unit didn't pick up a bad external temperature sensor on my BMW 530.  It was actually my then wife who sat in the car while he and I were under the hood and said, "It's not -74 degrees out there is it?"

It was August.  All she did was look at the dashboard display.  One $20 sensor later the car was running great again.

I don't have the car, or the wife, anymore.

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9 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

now it's getting weirder. was a little slow this am. so since the car was still in the bay, i screwed with it a little more. hooked up my launch scanner. it's chinese. in that, i found some codes in the bcm, and a couple canbus codes. all showed as being history. so i went through each module individually, and cleared memory. in the parking lot(ran outta time, can't test drive till later..prolly take it home tonight) it feels significantly better when i punch the throttle.

 it kinda pisses me off that my $6k snap on scanner didn't pick this shit up, but my $1k chinese knockoff scanner did

Well, you fix that damn thing yet?? :D

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1 hour ago, Displaced Texan said:

Well, you fix that damn thing yet?? :D

i took it around the block, but didn't bring it home tonight, 'cause i need to be able to park the excursion inside if i'm gonna leave it there......felt nearly perfect. bringing it home tomorrow night

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9 hours ago, EdF said:

A couple of years ago, my mechanic's Snap On unit didn't pick up a bad external temperature sensor on my BMW 530.  It was actually my then wife who sat in the car while he and I were under the hood and said, "It's not -74 degrees out there is it?"

It was August.  All she did was look at the dashboard display.  One $20 sensor later the car was running great again.

I don't have the car, or the wife, anymore.

it pisses me off due to what the dam thing costs. i paid around $6k for it, and have kept it updated with every new release. for that kinda loot, i shouldn't be missing things with this.

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Just now, 1LtCAP said:

it pisses me off due to what the dam thing costs. i paid around $6k for it, and have kept it updated with every new release. for that kinda loot, i shouldn't be missing things with this.

Talk to your Snap On rep about it.

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