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So I am still a fairly new gun owner and I'm just trying to figure out the stupid gun laws in this state. As long as they are secured and separated from any ammo,  I can drive with guns in my car from the FFL to my home, from my home to my business (if I own one), my home to a range or my home to a gunsmith. I can't drive with guns in my car if I am going to my inlaws' house first and then going to their range later in the day or the next day? 

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2C:39-5  Unlawful possession of weapons:

   c.   Rifles and shotguns.  (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

2C:39-6  Exemptions:

  (b)   (travel) Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection (g)...

   (g).   Any weapon being transported... shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

 

If you don't possess a FPID card you leave the definition of "authorized place...of practice" and "necessary deviations" in the hands of the police officer and prosecutor. In short you travel at your own risk.

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2 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

even with the fPid card, you're traveling at your own risk.

 

 easiest way to remember is that firearms are illegal in nj with exceptions and exemptions.

Sad, but true.

3 hours ago, chencaerulescens said:

only deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

Stopping at The in-laws on the way to the range leaves the above interpretation up to the LEO, why take that chance.  

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54 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

i thought hollow points were same as pistols? to/from excepted or exempted locations?

 

 and wasn't aktken talking suicide, which prompted his parents to call leo on him?

Judge in Aitken's case ruled that hollowpoints had no exemption for transport between homes.

Yes, Aitken talked about suicide to mother who called 911 which started the LEO investigation. 

He also had "high capacity" (>17 round) magazines, but the charge for the magazines ended up being defeated in court on a technicality. (Prosecutor had no evidence that the magazines could "continuously feed a firearm").

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He also had a transport charge for HG in car from one residence to other. That charge was also overturned, and that was not on technically. He was transporting the Bags legally.

And I wouldn't call the mag a technicality, prosecutor failed two prove "hold and continuously feed " and evidentially was dumb enough to destroy the evidence.

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The ultimate takeaway from his case was that if you are moving from one residence to another and taking hollowpoints with you, you need to swing by a range between residences.

Only then do the exemptions and exceptions apply to hollowpoints.

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10 minutes ago, njJoniGuy said:

The ultimate takeaway from his case was that if you are moving from one residence to another and taking hollowpoints with you, you need to swing by a range between residences.

Only then do the exemptions and exceptions apply to hollowpoints.

Yep and crazy that it's so difficult to understand the plain meaning of the law. Hence my signature:

"It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed?"

Federalist #62

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2 hours ago, leahcim said:

... I wouldn't call the mag a technicality, prosecutor failed two prove "hold and continuously feed " and evidentially was dumb enough to destroy the evidence.

Not a technicality!?  He had high capacity magazines in his possession, end of story.

The only reason that charge didn't stick was the Prosecutor's handling of the evidence. AKA, a technicality.

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33 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Not a technicality!?  He had high capacity magazines in his possession, end of story.

The only reason that charge didn't stick was the Prosecutor's handling of the evidence. AKA, a technicality.

Ok it's a technicality.  But If they don't prove guilt or it can't stand up to appeal, then you're innocent in the eyes of the law.  This one couldn't stand up to appeal, likely because even the prosecutor didn't fully understand this law. You may still be guilty, but presumed innocent if not proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Besides, the law itself is premised on unconditional grounds.  

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When i use to carry out of state(not NJ of course), i would always swing by the range and keep my receipt. Here's some rules to remember:

Transporting handguns/hollow points = to and from range with receipt or club ID, FID with you(stopping for food and gas permitted)

Transporting Rifles/Shotguns = cased and unloaded, FID with you, ammunition stored separately. to and from range not required, but do so at your own risk! Stopping for gas, food, dropping passengers are permitted. Besides driving around with an unloaded long gun in the trunk and not going to the range serves little or no tactical purpose, it will never play a part in a defense scenario. 

Hope this helps!

 

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On 5/14/2021 at 1:48 PM, njJoniGuy said:

The ultimate takeaway from his case was that if you are moving from one residence to another and taking hollowpoints with you, you need to swing by a range between residences.

Only then do the exemptions and exceptions apply to hollowpoints.

You are technically correct.

I'm still looking for a prosecution of someone transporting hollowpoints from one residence to a new one.

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On 5/14/2021 at 6:10 PM, marlintag said:

 Besides driving around with an unloaded long gun in the trunk and not going to the range serves little or no tactical purpose, it will never play a part in a defense scenario.

 

I can't disagree with you.  The chances of accessing an unloaded rifle or shotgun and getting it loaded and up into the fight in any kind of timely manner seem remote.  Still, I would rather have a shotgun and a bit of ammo for it with me at all times than not.  Just a personal choice.

Another option (advocated by Nappen) is to carry a Keltec Sub 2000 folded in a briefcase or in some other readily accessible place.  The efficacy of that option depends on whether or not you believe it's OK to carry loaded magazines under NJ law, the subject of some discussion.  With loaded mags handy, one could easily have the weapon unfolded and loaded in short order.  OTOH, if one were going to need to start stuffing rounds into a magazine, it would seem to be pretty useless.

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32 minutes ago, Bklynracer said:

Question about this, would having a picture of your FID on your phone be considered as having a card with you

IIRC the way the law is written you don't need to have the FID with you.

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11 hours ago, GRIZ said:

You are technically correct.

I'm still looking for a prosecution of someone transporting hollowpoints from one residence to a new one.

Wasn't this one of the charges with Aitken, and the only one but overturned on appeal? IIRC, the "transport HG" charge was overturned because appellate determined he was operating within one of the transport exceptions (between homes), HP charge stood because there was no such exception written in the law fire HP transport.

Not saying Aitken was a model citizen, or that his ignorance is an excuse. But I believe the HP charge stood up to appeal, when the same charges for HG was overturned ( and that one was not a technicality).

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IIRC, Aitken's conviction on possession was overturned not because the appellate court found him not guilty. It was because the judge during the trial refused to inform the jury about the moving exemption.  The magazine charge was thrown out because the police did not test them.

Both were procedural errors.  Aitken stood trial for all three charges he was arrested for.

Yes, the hollowpoint law in NJ is not an add on charge.  You can be charged with it alone.  As a matter of practice it is used as an add on charge to other firearm violations.

Aitken's problems started with him trying to play the sympathy card with his mother who called police.  He was gone and was talked back into returning to his mother's.  He then spent considerable time talking with police at his mother's and consented to the search of his car.

What were the police supposed to do?  We got a call from this guy's mother who says he's threatening to kill himself and he has a gun in his car.  Should they have ignored it?  Let him go when the gun was discovered?  They exercised, IMO, the only option that was available.

There were people charged only, and only, the possession of hollowpoints law.  That pretty stopped over 20 years ago.  Undoubtedly there are thousands of hollowpoints being transported hundreds of times all over NJ on a regular basis.  No one gets arrested for it.

 

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I don't disagree, but if the HG charge was overturned because of the judge failing to inform about the moving exemption, wouldn't the HP charge be overturned for the same reasons, if it did indeed fall under the exemption?

Agree that it is very unlikely, just saying it is technically illegal.

And according to what Aitken says in his book, his biggest mistake was turning around and going back to Cherry Hill when he was half way back to his place in Newark. Police told him they would put out an APB and have him brought back (most likely a bluff), he bought it and came back. I don't think they could have legally forced him to come back, he would have been better off to continue to his apartment in Newark.

 

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8 minutes ago, leahcim said:

I don't disagree, but if the HG charge was overturned because of the judge failing to inform about the moving exemption, wouldn't the HP charge be overturned for the same reasons, if it did indeed fall under the exemption?

Agree that it is very unlikely, just saying it is technically illegal.

And according to what Aitken says in his book, his biggest mistake was turning around and going back to Cherry Hill when he was half way back to his place in Newark. Police told him they would put out an APB and have him brought back (most likely a bluff), he bought it and came back. I don't think they could have legally forced him to come back, he would have been better off to continue to his apartment in Newark.

 

Hollowpoint charge was being used as a stand alone charge.  Ergo the status of the other charges had no effect on it.

Aitken's biggest mistake IMO was saying what he said to his mother.  Apparently he said it with enough sincerity to concern her.

I don't think saying they were going to put out an APB on him a bluff.  I used to hear them 100 years ago when I was on the police department, "Emotionally disturbed individual headed for Newark from Cherry Hill in a Grey DeSoto, NJ reg ABC123.  Believed to be armed with a handgun.  Use caution".

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Yes absolutely biggest mistake was what he said to his mother.

And you definitely have more actual experience than me, but he probably could've made them think he would return to cherry hill, then just continue on to Newark.

There are a lot of other mistakes and/or things he says that don't necessarily add up. 

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8 hours ago, Bklynracer said:

Question about this, would having a picture of your FID on your phone be considered as having a card with you

I never really pondered that question. I put my fid in the same protective cover used for baseball cards and keep it with me. I guess a picture of it would be fine, but based on my experience with police here, it ain't worth it.....

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16 hours ago, leahcim said:

Yes absolutely biggest mistake was what he said to his mother.

And you definitely have more actual experience than me, but he probably could've made them think he would return to cherry hill, then just continue on to Newark.

There are a lot of other mistakes and/or things he says that don't necessarily add up. 

Actual experience?  Is that because I remember people driving DeSotos?

Even if he made it back to Newark, Hoboken, Jersey City or wherever his apartment was the police would still be looking for him.  

Many here on this forum said, "they should have let Aitken go".  Yeah, sure. Imagine the press with, "Police don't do anything with a person who has been reported suicidal".

Before I go further I'm a supporter of Constitutional Carry.

Many use Aitken's case as a story about someone being abused by the system.  I see him as a whiny little boy that never thought of the consequences of his actions.  He is far from a poster boy.

 

NJ firearms law sucks. But we have to live by it...until it's repealed.  We are law abiding citizens.

 

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10 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Actual experience?  Is that because I remember people driving DeSotos?

Even if he made it back to Newark, Hoboken, Jersey City or wherever his apartment was the police would still be looking for him.  

Many here on this forum said, "they should have let Aitken go".  Yeah, sure. Imagine the press with, "Police don't do anything with a person who has been reported suicidal".

Before I go further I'm a supporter of Constitutional Carry.

Many use Aitken's case as a story about someone being abused by the system.  I see him as a whiny little boy that never thought of the consequences of his actions.  He is far from a poster boy.

 

NJ firearms law sucks. But we have to live by it...until it's repealed.  We are law abiding citizens.

 

this.

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11 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Actual experience?  Is that because I remember people driving DeSotos?

Even if he made it back to Newark, Hoboken, Jersey City or wherever his apartment was the police would still be looking for him.  

Many here on this forum said, "they should have let Aitken go".  Yeah, sure. Imagine the press with, "Police don't do anything with a person who has been reported suicidal".

Before I go further I'm a supporter of Constitutional Carry.

Many use Aitken's case as a story about someone being abused by the system.  I see him as a whiny little boy that never thought of the consequences of his actions.  He is far from a poster boy.

 

NJ firearms law sucks. But we have to live by it...until it's repealed.  We are law abiding citizens.

 

No, I remember DeSotos and Studebaker's too, I just don't have the LE experience, I can only armchair it.

And Aitken was by no means perfect, but this imperfect case will set precedent that we are all subject to. And this is why it is important for everyone to, at minimum, read and try to understand the law and think about these "hypotheticals" and how you would like to respond, and think about what you do and what the consequence could be (likely and worst case).

If Aitken did this, he wouldn't have had a 15+ mag, he wouldn't make the suicidal comments, and he wouldn't consent to search (which probably would not have happened in the first place)

 

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On 5/16/2021 at 8:49 AM, Bklynracer said:

Question about this, would having a picture of your FID on your phone be considered as having a card with you

The new FPICs are electronic only, so they would have to accept an electronic FPIC. Whether they will accept a scan of a physical card, I'm not sure.

On 5/16/2021 at 9:24 AM, GRIZ said:

IIRC the way the law is written you don't need to have the FID with you.

There is a statute that requires the LEO to assume you do not have any permit until you produce it to prove otherwise. Therefore, no you are not required to have it with you, but it does nothing for you until you produce it.

I carry mine in my wallet - I even had to show it last weekend during a traffic stop because I hadn't covered my rifle case with a moving blanket. The NJSP Trooper also saw my belt/holster rig in the back seat and asked if I had a "um..." whilst making a pistol motion with his left hand. I told him I was traveling directly home from a range and never answered whether there was a handgun in the car or not.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

 

There is a statute that requires the LEO to assume you do not have any permit until you produce it to prove otherwise. Therefore, no you are not required to have it with you, but it does nothing for you until you produce it.

I carry mine in my wallet - I even had to show it last weekend during a traffic stop because I hadn't covered my rifle case with a moving blanket. The NJSP Trooper also saw my belt/holster rig in the back seat and asked if I had a "um..." whilst making a pistol motion with his left hand. I told him I was traveling directly home from a range and never answered whether there was a handgun in the car or not.

Can you quote the statute that requires police to assume you don't have an FID?Not trying to sharpshoot you only trying to learn. 

Police in NJ can query your FID like they do your drivers license.  Then they know you have one.  Of course it's easier if you just show it.

You would have been covered by the exemption of coming from the range even if you didn't have an FID.  You weren't doing anything wrong with or without.

Your story about being stopped proved a point.  If you don't want to answer questions don't leave your rifle case or holster in the open.

 

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