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GDITurbo77

Which JHP's are legal for home defense?

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I have 3 9mm pistols . I was sold a couple of boxes of Sig V-Crown 9mm JHP's for home defense a couple of months back from my LGS. Today, I went to try out a new range to see if I wanted to join. After shooting for about an hour, we decided to become members. I asked about .357 Magnum ammo for my new 686-6+ and he said they only had Hornady Critical Defense rounds for carryout purchase. He then told me that the red tip Hornady's are the only JHP that are legal to use in the state of NJ. This surprised me, since the LGS sold me the other JHP's and never said anything about not being able to use them in a home defense situation. Can someone confirm that the Sig V-Crowns are basically just expensive range ammo?

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13 minutes ago, GDITurbo77 said:

He then told me that the red tip Hornady's are the only JHP that are legal to use in the state of NJ

Hahahaha.  Always Be Closing.   “These right here, (slaps roof) are the only rounds your allowed to use ever.”

As others have said. JHP are completely legal to own and possess in your home.  Transport outside the home is tricky.  

Also Hornady CD are not JHP.  

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21 minutes ago, Old Glock guy said:

Lesson in this:  Never take legal advice from your LGS (or LEO's for that matter).

JHP's are perfectly legal for HD in NJ.  Just be sure to transport them directly from home to the range and back (like handguns).

 

9 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Hahahaha.  Always Be Closing.   “These right here, (slaps roof) are the only rounds your allowed to use ever.”

As others have said. JHP are completely legal to own and possess in your home.  Transport outside the home is tricky.  

Also Hornady CD are not JHP.  

:rofl: I just covered this exact statement in another thread:

Cross post shenanigans:

https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/96118-build-guide-for-non-nfa/&do=findComment&comment=1359042

Where Gun Store Guy is kinda correct, is that Hornady Critical Defense (optimized for small handguns with short barrels) and Critical Duty (optimized for full size handguns) rounds are probably the best (Power Ball and EFMJ being two other good options) rounds that retired LEOs can carry in their firearms outside their home because they are not hollow points, but they don’t act like FMJ either.

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From what I understand perfectly legal if done in a  abiding way. But say if you broke a law involving a gun using with hollow points you’re going to have an additional serious charges against you. For instance in a unjustified home defense shooting. 

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Remember the following rules:

1. Do not talk to New Jersey LEO's, they will give you wrong information, give you idiotic advice, or simply have no clue regarding NJ gun law. 

2. The advice given to you by your LGS should be taken with a grain of salt. Do your own legal research, speak to an attorney if need be.

3. All HP ammunition is legal to purchase and possess in NJ, THAT IS ALL! Period! If you use a firearm in your home (god forbid) you have to be justified regardless of the ammunition used. You can take your hollow points with you to the range and back with your FID card on you. 

If you have no interest in owning hollow points you can look at the following:

Inceptor ammo

Hornady Critical

Glaser Ammo

ARX by Ruger

NovX

 

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4 hours ago, marlintag said:

You can take your hollow points with you to the range and back with your FID card on you. 

Where on earth did you hear that an FPIC protects you if found in possession of hollowpoint ammo?

If you are going directly to/from a range with hollowpoints you fall within an exemption. Any firearms you have in your possession at the time are also exempt for the same reason. Your FPIC has nothing at all to do with it.

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7 hours ago, Johnk-NJ said:

From what I understand perfectly legal if done in a  abiding way. But say if you broke a law involving a gun using with hollow points you’re going to have an additional serious charges against you. For instance in a unjustified home defense shooting. 

If you broke a law, hollowpoints are the least of your worries.  If that's the case you don't need a "gun" lawyer, you need a good criminal defense lawyer 

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7 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

Where on earth did you hear that an FPIC protects you if found in possession of hollowpoint ammo?

If you are going directly to/from a range with hollowpoints you fall within an exemption. Any firearms you have in your possession at the time are also exempt for the same reason. Your FPIC has nothing at all to do with it.

I included the statement in case an individual was stopped by police, having an FID on you when going to the range and back should resolve and expediate some issues with the clueless LEO that pulls you over. I never said anything about it providing protection while outside the exemption. 

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3 hours ago, marlintag said:

I included the statement in case an individual was stopped by police, having an FID on you when going to the range and back should resolve and expediate some issues with the clueless LEO that pulls you over. I never said anything about it providing protection while outside the exemption. 

I guess it could if he was taking a rifle or shotgun to the range too. If his hollowpoint ammo is for one of 3 pistols as the OP stated in his first sentence, showing his FPIC does absolutely nothing for him.

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8 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

I guess it could if he was taking a rifle or shotgun to the range too. If his hollowpoint ammo is for one of 3 pistols as the OP stated in his first sentence, showing his FPIC does absolutely nothing for him.

so what would help him? It's true the FID is for long guns only but, at least it provides a LEO with an understanding that the owner is permitted to have "some weapons" not specifically related to the handgun and hollow points. I personally keep an FID on me at all times regardless of whether I take a long gun or pistol to and from the range to expedite a potential traffic stop. I guess the concern here is that if you go to the range with just a pistol and hollow points and leave your FID at home, couldn't a zealous LEO looking for a promotion make your life hell? Demand documentation to prove ownership? Demand club ID? etc.. this is NJ after all... 

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2 minutes ago, marlintag said:

so what would help him? It's true the FID is for long guns only but, at least it provides a LEO with an understanding that the owner is permitted to have "some weapons" not specifically related to the handgun and hollow points. I personally keep an FID on me at all times regardless of whether I take a long gun or pistol to and from the range to expedite a potential traffic stop. I guess the concern here is that if you go to the range with just a pistol and hollow points and leave your FID at home, couldn't a zealous LEO looking for a promotion make your life hell? Demand documentation to prove ownership? Demand club ID? etc.. this is NJ after all... 

The only thing that will help him is the ability to show that he is operating under the exemption which allows transportation directly between his home and the range. For all the good an FPIC will do, he may as well show his social security card.

If you are stopped riding a motorcycle and you present a DL without a motorcycle endorsement, do you think you'll avoid prosecution because you have shown that you can drive "some" vehicle?

If it makes you feel better to imagine what offenses a cop might make up out of thin air and try to come up with a way to protect yourself from those by pretending documents have properties that they do not actually have, who am I to stop you?

However, for the rest of the people reading this: Possession of neither a handgun nor hollowpoint ammunition is excused by the possession of an FPIC. 

I also carry my FPIC all the time, but that is in case I want to use it for it's actual purpose. i.e. buying a long gun, buying pistol ammo or renewing my driver's license.

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On 6/7/2021 at 5:18 PM, marlintag said:

so what would help him? It's true the FID is for long guns only but, at least it provides a LEO with an understanding that the owner is permitted to have "some weapons" not specifically related to the handgun and hollow points. I personally keep an FID on me at all times regardless of whether I take a long gun or pistol to and from the range to expedite a potential traffic stop. I guess the concern here is that if you go to the range with just a pistol and hollow points and leave your FID at home, couldn't a zealous LEO looking for a promotion make your life hell? Demand documentation to prove ownership? Demand club ID? etc.. this is NJ after all... 

Let's put this MYTH to rest, FOREVER & RIGHT NOW!  You may or may not be aware, so for those that AREN'T here goes:

I transport weapons registered to a man that's been DEAD since 1982!  Upon my father's passing, my mother laid his entire modest collection out on display on the dinning room table for her three offspring to divvy-up.  NO PAPERWORK!  Cause that's how it was done back then!

Am I supposed to go dig them both up (Mom died in '95) and ask them where's the P2P's? 

I've been "behind the trigger" for nearly half a century.  The totality of what I've done and what I know could make a good book.  And OPEN LOTS OF EYES to the self-inflicted harassments we continually endure from those that THINK they "know" things...the big one being applying FOPA interstate transport regulations to intrA-state (within NJ) transportation.  The fact is the current law doesn't even say that your Yellow Card has to be IN YOUR POSSESSION, it merely states you have to be granted one to be in compliance of the exception / exemption you're transporting under....  

~R

May be an image of text that says 'ROSENTHAL'

 

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3 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

Let's put this MYTH to rest, FOREVER & RIGHT NOW!  You may or may not be aware, so for those that AREN'T here goes:

I transport weapons registered to a man that's been DEAD since 1982!  Upon my father's passing, my mother laid his entire modest collection out on display on the dinning room table for her three offspring to divvy-up.  NO PAPERWORK!  Cause that's how it was done back then!

Am I supposed to go dig them both up (Mom died in '95) and ask them where's the P2P's? 

I've been "behind the trigger" for nearly half a century.  The totality of what I've done and what I know could make a good book.  And OPEN LOTS OF EYES to the self-inflicted harassments we continually endure from those that THINK they "know" things...the big one being applying FOPA interstate transport regulations to intrA-state (within NJ) transportation.  The fact is the current law doesn't even say that your Yellow Card has to be IN YOUR POSSESSION, it merely states you have to be granted one to be in compliance of the exception / exemption you're transporting under....  

~R

May be an image of text that says 'ROSENTHAL'

 

I usually don't get caught up in arguments with other gun owners but, I feel my advice which is solid and helpful is being disregarded and degraded.

Let's put this MYTH to rest, FOREVER & RIGHT NOW!  You may or may not be aware, so for those that AREN'T here goes:

It's a MYTH UNTIL SOMETHING HAPPENS TO YOU!!, I have been targeted by my local police department for being a vocal pro 2A advocate. 

I transport weapons registered to a man that's been DEAD since 1982!  Upon my father's passing, my mother laid his entire modest collection out on display on the dinning room table for her three offspring to divvy-up.  NO PAPERWORK!  Cause that's how it was done back then!

Your statement is irrelevant because THATS HOW IT'S DONE NOW! as NO PAPERWORK is required pursuant to   N.J.S.A. 2C:58-3j, your statement is ignorant of the tremendous social and political changes that have taken place since 1982 culminating in a "different breed of enforcers" and anti-gun activists particularly in our state.  

Am I supposed to go dig them both up (Mom died in '95) and ask them where's the P2P's? 

I would CYA with any method in this state including keeping receipts for every firearms purchased, although in every case that may not be available. "You own guns at your own peril" Where did that come from? 

I've been "behind the trigger" for nearly half a century.  The totality of what I've done and what I know could make a good book.  And OPEN LOTS OF EYES to the self-inflicted harassments we continually endure from those that THINK they "know" things...the big one being applying FOPA interstate transport regulations to intrA-state (within NJ) transportation.  The fact is the current law doesn't even say that your Yellow Card has to be IN YOUR POSSESSION, it merely states you have to be granted one to be in compliance of the exception / exemption you're transporting under....  

I wasn't trying to "self-inflict", I was giving good advice that could potentially resolve or expediate issues for those unfortunate enough to be pulled over by a bored cop with a big ego. You don't ENDURE FROM ME, but those in this state that are actively targeting us! You seem to be either oblivious or unaffected by this fact! Nothing in your statement changes the fact that we are in a dire situation in this state until something comes from SCOTUS(ex NYRP V Corlett). If having something as simple as an FID on you can clear up a traffic stop, THEN WHATS THE ISSUE? I've had my say, I won't waste anymore time on this!

 

 

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A Hudson County prosecutor who indicted a homeowner for killing an intruder using a .45 JHP stated to me that JHP ammunition was illegal.  This is corrupt NJ, not the rest of the country, and the law means nothing under certain circumstances.  The homeowner was judged fully justified in shooting the intruder who broke into his home and stabbed him first, but was still charged with the JHP possession.

In the same conversation the prosecutor stated the JHP charges would likely be dropped, but an indictment on the JHP ammo was the preferred process favored by his department.

This is NJ.  It has nothing to do with the law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, WilliamParker said:

A Hudson County prosecutor who indicted a homeowner for killing an intruder using a .45 JHP stated to me that JHP ammunition was illegal.  This is corrupt NJ, not the rest of the country, and the law means nothing under certain circumstances.  The homeowner was judged fully justified in shooting the intruder who broke into his home and stabbed him first, but was still charged with the JHP possession.

In the same conversation the prosecutor stated the JHP charges would likely be dropped, but an indictment on the JHP ammo was the preferred process favored by his department.

This is NJ.  It has nothing to do with the law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which case was this?

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10 hours ago, WilliamParker said:

It was a case in the 90s when I was involved with the legislative committee for ANJRPC and we made an issue with GOP legislators due to prosecutors ignoring the law and charging innocent gun owners simply as their own punative methods.  I do not have the original details.

Without the details one is unable to opine about the merits of the case.

You do state the homeowner was charged with some homicide statute for killing the intruder.  If that's the case he would normally be charged with a hollowpoint charge.

All of which does little to answer the OP's question but does present an important point.

I will use hypothetical cases to illustrate points.

Hollowpoints are legal to possess at home.  Being charged with illegal possession depends on how you use them.

If you're over 21 you can possess alcoholic beverages in your home.  No problem.  If you serve them to minors you can have all kinds of criminal problems.

Use hollowpoints in the home for defense?  Totally legal if you meet the criteria for justifiable lethal force.

If you don't you can be charged with the homicide and a hollowpoint charge.

As an aside, many endorse having security cameras and other methods to reinforce your claim of self defense.  Sometimes too much information can hurt you.

Not sure what the present criteria is but at one time NJ LEOS basically had to spot the badguy the first shot.  If the BG had a gun in his hand but not pointed at the LEO he couldn't shoot.

So okay, based on that, an "antigun prosecutor" might get an indictment from a grand jury.

Keep in mind a prosecutor makes their bones on a conviction rate. A prosecutor that wants to take BS to trial (no matter what their political views) will soon find themselves doing house closings and writing wills.  Nothing against that that's all some lawyers want to do.

I think too many overthink this issue.

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The homeowner was initially charged with a homicide but that was dropped after much public outcry.  The homeowner was Spanish, and had alot of press showing him as the victim.  But the prosecutor let stand the charge related to HP.

The potential to be tried up in a new legal mess over HP by corrupt police and prosecutors seems not worth the benefit of of a helping hand that a better aim may have eliminated the need for.

 

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IMO it costs nothing to have your FPIC with you when transporting any firearms or ammunition. And if you are stopped by an officer who is ignorant of the law (they are out there), and somehow firearms and ammunition become part of the conversation (They wouldn't would they? You had everything in your trunk out of sight. And you didn't consent to a search. Right?), display of your FPIC might dissuade the officer from acting on his ignorant opinion and save you some time and trouble.

When in PA transporting my CMMG Banshee, I have a copy of the PA Record Of Sale which clearly states by MFG, serial number and barrel length that the Banshee is a handgun. Even though it looks like a SBR to the uninformed. Thus, with a PA LTCF I can have it loaded in the seat next to me if I want.

If I was ever stopped and challenged that I can't have a loaded rifle anywhere in the vehicle in PA, I would produce the Record of Sale where the PASP confirm the facts.

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9 minutes ago, W2MC said:

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LOL yeah, this topic is kinda like hemorrhoids.... Many here have stated the following many times, if you are not justified in using deadly force it does not matter whether you load your gun with hornady critical defense or gold dots!!! I have said this before, YOU GAIN NO BROWNIE POINTS FROM THE PROSUCTOR OR THE NJ COURT SYSTEM BY USING NON-HOLLOW POINT AMMO FOR YOUR SELF DEFENSE NEEDS. YOU HAVE TO BE JUSTIFIED PERIOD! what would be justification? A sudden and violent self-defense encounter in your home where you fear immediate death or dismemberment for you and all other actors involved after you have warned the offender that you are armed and no other alternative is possible for your immediate survival. This rule is a general one that can be applied to many states including Texas!. This week a Texan was charged with murder for shooting someone that simply parked in his driveway. Think about that! 

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On 11/4/2021 at 7:49 PM, WilliamParker said:

The homeowner was initially charged with a homicide but that was dropped after much public outcry.  The homeowner was Spanish, and had alot of press showing him as the victim.  But the prosecutor let stand the charge related to HP.

The potential to be tried up in a new legal mess over HP by corrupt police and prosecutors seems not worth the benefit of of a helping hand that a better aim may have eliminated the need for.

 

So he went to trial on the hollowpoint charge?

I did a lot of work with local police from the 70s to the first decade of the 21st century.

I saw local police in the 90s charge people only with possession of hollowpoints.  However, this was on warrants for drug dealers and between the time it took them to develop the probable cause for the warrant and the time they served the warrant, the drug dealer moved his dope and his guns but forgot to move his hollowpoints.  He was arrested for hollowpoints and hollowpoints only.

However they arrived at it, by the late 90s,  cops were told not to charge anyone with just possession of hollowpoints.  Many have said you are in danger having that one 22 lr hollowpoint rolling around in your trunk.  Fact is I've researched and I could only find one person charged with only possession of hollowpoints and that was 20 years ago.

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Back to the original question, what hollowpoints are best.

1.  WW Silvertips-they got a bad rap IMO from the Miami FBI shooting.  The bullet penetrated his arm, breaking his humerus, into his chest, hitting a rib, through his lung, and stopped an inch short of the heart.  On the way it took out a couple of inches of his brachial artery.  He would probably die if that happened to him in an emergency room.

Total penetration, 11 inches so the FBI came up with 12" minimum.

Another plus with Silvertips is a very minor blue muzzle flash.  Preserves your night vision.  

I went round and round with this with a 20 something forum member who wrote a term paper about this.  His attitude was f__k your 50 years of experience.

2.  147 gr JHP or 124 gr Gold Dots-thats if you want more penetration.  I'm not going to give for instances you can't research.

A few years ago NYPD had a shooting that initially reported the bullets were stopped by the bad guys jacket.  That was 124gr Gold Dots.  Many ignored the reports a few days later that disclosed the bullets had penetrated the BG, entry and exit, and where stopped by his jacket.

My recommendations by caliber?

22 short-roundnose, penetration same as 22 hollowpoint.

22 lr- solids, you need the penetration.

25 ACP-FMJ, more reliable than 22s.

32 ACP-FMJ will give you good penetration.

380 ACP-FMJ for penetration

38 special- factory wadcutters in a 2". I like 147 gr +P+ in a Kramer.

357 mag-125 jhp, proven.

9mm parabellum-already stated. I have no issue using fmj if penetration is no problem.

40 S&W- no use for this round.

44 spl-good as it is. No hot load needed.

45 ACP- I'm good with FMJ.  The 230 gr JHP Speer is a good load.

44 mag-download needed here.  Any bullet at 1000 fps.

If you need more than that, go to a rifle.

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