RUTGERS95 889 Posted November 9, 2021 Griz is always the sounding board and voice of excellent information! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WilliamParker 15 Posted November 9, 2021 9 hours ago, GRIZ said: So he went to trial on the hollowpoint charge? I did a lot of work with local police from the 70s to the first decade of the 21st century. I saw local police in the 90s charge people only with possession of hollowpoints. However, this was on warrants for drug dealers and between the time it took them to develop the probable cause for the warrant and the time they served the warrant, the drug dealer moved his dope and his guns but forgot to move his hollowpoints. He was arrested for hollowpoints and hollowpoints only. However they arrived at it, by the late 90s, cops were told not to charge anyone with just possession of hollowpoints. Many have said you are in danger having that one 22 lr hollowpoint rolling around in your trunk. Fact is I've researched and I could only find one person charged with only possession of hollowpoints and that was 20 years ago. I am glad to hear that. The case I referred to was beyond 20 years ago and there was no trial only because of public outrage over the type of bullet the homeowner saved his life with. Charges were dismissed, but the main point is that the prosecutor was knowingly falsely making the charge as some form of punative act. He flat out said that they preferred to file charges and then drop them later. So glad that evil intent seems to have changed. Also about 20 something years ago, a friend of mine down near Bedminister shot a burglar 3 times with his .357 mag with 125 gn. hp ammo - who remarkably lived. My friend was a big pro-Republican fund raiser. The burglar had first kicked him in the face breaking his jaw and stabbed him with a screwdriver before he shot him. He was only charged with the use of hollowpoints and had to hire an attorney to finally have the charges dropped. He then sold his home and ran to Florida to a free state. I would feel much better with jhp in my .45 but still will not take that chance. This is still New Jersey. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted November 13, 2021 On 11/9/2021 at 10:27 AM, WilliamParker said: I am glad to hear that. The case I referred to was beyond 20 years ago and there was no trial only because of public outrage over the type of bullet the homeowner saved his life with. Charges were dismissed, but the main point is that the prosecutor was knowingly falsely making the charge as some form of punative act. He flat out said that they preferred to file charges and then drop them later. So glad that evil intent seems to have changed. Also about 20 something years ago, a friend of mine down near Bedminister shot a burglar 3 times with his .357 mag with 125 gn. hp ammo - who remarkably lived. My friend was a big pro-Republican fund raiser. The burglar had first kicked him in the face breaking his jaw and stabbed him with a screwdriver before he shot him. He was only charged with the use of hollowpoints and had to hire an attorney to finally have the charges dropped. He then sold his home and ran to Florida to a free state. I would feel much better with jhp in my .45 but still will not take that chance. This is still New Jersey. Thanks for the clarification. https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/45-auto-185-gr-ftx-critical-defense#!/ It might be difficult to find right now, but that would be my choice instead of a JHP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bellasdaddy 31 Posted January 7, 2022 On 5/25/2021 at 9:06 PM, High Exposure said: I just covered this exact statement in another thread: Cross post shenanigans: https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/96118-build-guide-for-non-nfa/&do=findComment&comment=1359042 Where Gun Store Guy is kinda correct, is that Hornady Critical Defense (optimized for small handguns with short barrels) and Critical Duty (optimized for full size handguns) rounds are probably the best (Power Ball and EFMJ being two other good options) rounds that retired LEOs can carry in their firearms outside their home because they are not hollow points, but they don’t act like FMJ either. To further complicate this: Filled hollow tips are the only legal carry for retired LEOs residing in NJ that retired from a NJ agency. If the retired LEO residing in NJ retired from a non-NJ agency (NYPD, Federal etc) they can carry any ammo that is not federally banned per LEOSA… 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 240 Posted January 8, 2022 Filled hollow points are not considered hollow points by NJSP. Which would you recommend for home defense use? "Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition. An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition." Firearms Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) | New Jersey State Police (njsp.org) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bellasdaddy 31 Posted January 8, 2022 15 minutes ago, ESB said: Filled hollow points are not considered hollow points by NJSP. Which would you recommend for home defense use? "Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition. An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition." Firearms Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) | New Jersey State Police (njsp.org) That is correct; I am currently utilizing Hornady Critical Duty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sniper 6,372 Posted January 8, 2022 Everyone should consider these.... you can never be too careful, and cover all your bases: 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JimB1 554 Posted January 8, 2022 I’ve been thinking about these lately. Not sure if anyone has used them but they aren’t hollow points and are made as a defensive round. I need to do some research on them though… https://www.underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-90gr-xtreme-defender-solid-monolithic-self-defense-ammo-815-1.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WilliamParker 15 Posted January 9, 2022 Just remember, this is New Jersey which is utterly corrupt at every level. That zombie ammo box will be the lead story of the news broadcast portraying the home owner resisting a home invasion ass a bloodthirsty murderer looking to do even more than kill those misled thieves whose only crime it was to seek keys to steel a car. Just take a look at how the news is slanted and corrupted. As I have stated before, a friend of mine down around Bedminister shot a home invader 3 times with 125 JHP .357. He was cleared of the shooting but indicted on the jhp bullets. Finally that charge was dropped but only after some long legal negotiation with an anti-gun prosecutor looking to manipulate the law. And today, you can pretty much expect that every single prosecutor in the entire state will be out to get you once you pull that trigger. What the law says, what the state says it means, and how they manipulate it against you are 3 separate issues. BTW, the PCP fueled scumbag lived with 2 of the 3 rounds going right through his chest. I saw the chips in the garage wall cinderblock myself. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted January 9, 2022 2 hours ago, WilliamParker said: As I have stated before, a friend of mine down around Bedminister shot a home invader 3 times with 125 JHP .357. He was cleared of the shooting but indicted on the jhp bullets Is there any documentation for that case? I'm really intrigued about what statute he was charged under. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marlintag 223 Posted January 9, 2022 11 hours ago, WilliamParker said: Just remember, this is New Jersey which is utterly corrupt at every level. That zombie ammo box will be the lead story of the news broadcast portraying the home owner resisting a home invasion ass a bloodthirsty murderer looking to do even more than kill those misled thieves whose only crime it was to seek keys to steel a car. Just take a look at how the news is slanted and corrupted. As I have stated before, a friend of mine down around Bedminister shot a home invader 3 times with 125 JHP .357. He was cleared of the shooting but indicted on the jhp bullets. Finally that charge was dropped but only after some long legal negotiation with an anti-gun prosecutor looking to manipulate the law. And today, you can pretty much expect that every single prosecutor in the entire state will be out to get you once you pull that trigger. What the law says, what the state says it means, and how they manipulate it against you are 3 separate issues. BTW, the PCP fueled scumbag lived with 2 of the 3 rounds going right through his chest. I saw the chips in the garage wall cinderblock myself. William has a point! I normally advocate for whatever is legal, available and effective for defense, but with the ammo becoming more available i have since made the switch to Fort Scott TUI 80 grain. I have test fired this round at the range, nice recoil and very accurate. 9mm Luger Subsonic Handgun Ammo, Terminal Performance|Velocity Tactics — Fort Scott Munitions There are many non-hollow point defense rounds available today, they all seem to have decent performance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WilliamParker 15 Posted January 9, 2022 10 hours ago, Mr.Stu said: Is there any documentation for that case? I'm really intrigued about what statute he was charged under. They charged him under the HP statute, even though it didn't apply. When you have a government of criminals run by criminals and protected by criminals, they can do whatever they please. It was an old friend from about 1996 who recognized it was time to flee and he moved to FL. I did not write down the details. Up in Morris here, Roxbury cops were stopping innocent motorists and fleecing them with ficticious charges that were not even on the books. Didn't exist. The lawyers were worthless or even part of the scam, and just plead down the fine. This went on for years until one private citizen took it to Superior court and proved it was a well orchestrated shakedown by police and the municipal court. The point is that if you think you have rights, remember where you are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 240 Posted January 10, 2022 Went with soft point Speer Gold Dots in .223, Hornady Critical Defense in 9mm, and Federal Punch in .22LR. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SMOKIE901 10 Posted January 17, 2022 On 5/25/2021 at 8:41 PM, GDITurbo77 said: I have 3 9mm pistols . I was sold a couple of boxes of Sig V-Crown 9mm JHP's for home defense a couple of months back from my LGS. Today, I went to try out a new range to see if I wanted to join. After shooting for about an hour, we decided to become members. I asked about .357 Magnum ammo for my new 686-6+ and he said they only had Hornady Critical Defense rounds for carryout purchase. He then told me that the red tip Hornady's are the only JHP that are legal to use in the state of NJ. This surprised me, since the LGS sold me the other JHP's and never said anything about not being able to use them in a home defense situation. Can someone confirm that the Sig V-Crowns are basically just expensive range ammo? I have that same S&W 686 6 shot in a 2.5 barrel, and I keep it at arm's reach at night from my bed loaded with 38 +P HP ammo. 357 ammo has too much recoil in a 2.5 barrel for home defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted January 17, 2022 I've said it before and I'll say it again. NJ Stautes, for the law abiding gun owner, only cover where you can possess hollowpoints. They say nothing about where you can use them. 1 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raz-0 1,256 Posted January 18, 2022 On 1/17/2022 at 2:43 AM, GRIZ said: I've said it before and I'll say it again. NJ Stautes, for the law abiding gun owner, only cover where you can possess hollowpoints. They say nothing about where you can use them. I mean if you are someplace you can't possess them, you can't really use them there legally speaking. It's jsut that the charge will be possession of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 240 Posted January 18, 2022 I believe what he is suggesting is that you can legally posses them at your house, but you can get in trouble if you use them at your house in a self defense situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted January 18, 2022 25 minutes ago, ESB said: I believe what he is suggesting is that you can legally posses them at your house, but you can get in trouble if you use them at your house in a self defense situation. You can get into trouble for using deadly force without proper justification. The method of delivering deadly force is not regulated. You cannot be prosecuted for using extra deadly force. Similarly, you will not get a lighter sentence for using slightly deadly force. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 240 Posted January 18, 2022 If you are justified in using deadly force, but do so with HP in your home, you can get in trouble for using the HP. This was mentioned earlier up where they couldn't get the guy on use of deadly force but went after him for the HP's even though it was in his home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted January 18, 2022 34 minutes ago, ESB said: If you are justified in using deadly force, but do so with HP in your home, you can get in trouble for using the HP. This was mentioned earlier up where they couldn't get the guy on use of deadly force but went after him for the HP's even though it was in his home. By the same token, you can be jacked up by any prosecutor who is happy to make up his own laws. There is no statute to charge under for the story presented above. Any decent attorney should be able to blow right through that and get a significant payout for you. Show me some case law (an actually real case that went to court with a docket number, had charges listed, evidence presented and was actually adjudicated) and I'll give that story some credence. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shocker 150 Posted January 19, 2022 I figure once I use HP in self defense I don’t possess them any more. I transferred ownership at 1000 fps 1 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WilliamParker 15 Posted January 19, 2022 5 minutes ago, Shocker said: I figure once I use HP in self defense I don’t possess them any more. I transferred ownership at 1000 fps Good luck with that argument. Not in this police state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted January 19, 2022 6 minutes ago, Shocker said: I figure once I use HP in self defense I don’t possess them any more. I transferred ownership at 1000 fps If he didn't show you his FPIC, carry permit or PtPP you made an illegal transfer of handgun ammo. Go to jail anyway... ...unless you were using a rifle! 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shocker 150 Posted January 19, 2022 Plus it wouldn’t be a HP any more! It would be a filled tip a la Critical Defense but with human tissue rather than polymer. follow me for more legal advice! 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites