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leo-польд

Future of other in NJ

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Talked to my FFL and asked why there is no more Troy's or other "others" at this moment and he said - I wouldn't buy it since they might be ban soon. So, it is weird situation, tons of them year ago every store and place in NJ and nothing now. Ban soon means what? Are they going to prohibit them to shot at the ranges, what we will do with what we have now?

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I’ll offer an educated guess, first local shops don’t want to get “stuck” with inventory they’ll have to deal with if/when a ban occurs…they can sell or transfer out of state.. but probably yours doesn’t want to deal with that.

as for currently privately owned “others” in nj…..best hope for those owners is some grandfather clause, but that’s typically not the case….like the 15 to 10 ..unless you’re leo…turn in sell out of state or modify…..there’s a thought… maybe they will allow owners to modify to a nj legal configuration?

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4 hours ago, leo-польд said:

Talked to my FFL and asked why there is no more Troy's or other "others" at this moment and he said - I wouldn't buy it since they might be ban soon. So, it is weird situation, tons of them year ago every store and place in NJ and nothing now. Ban soon means what? Are they going to prohibit them to shot at the ranges, what we will do with what we have now?

Sell it while you can...it will never be grandfathered...and you will NOT be able to own it or shoot it at a range...

However, if you just want to own it...to say you do..have at it ! :)

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17 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

Sell it while you can...it will never be grandfathered...and you will NOT be able to own it or shoot it at a range...

However, if you just want to own it...to say you do..have at it ! :)

At first, I thought you were talking about 30 round and 15 round magazines..:crazy:

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25 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

Sell it while you can...it will never be grandfathered...and you will NOT be able to own it or shoot it at a range...

However, if you just want to own it...to say you do..have at it ! :)

Sell? What about thousands been sold in NJ last couple of years? Who will buy them?  What they will ban, they can't ban AR that will become national disaster, they could only brace but I could take it off.

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What did you honestly think was going to happen with these 'other' firearms?

 

Want an SBR? SBS? Move to a gun friendly state and file the stamp...

 

Someone will buy it....  and they don't care how many thousands have been sold...

 

Also AR15 is next, in NJ no grandfather, rest of the country yea...but you won't be able to sell it or transfer it...  hope i am wrong, but it seems that way is coming.....  

I no longer own an AR, i pulled a lot of money out of an 800 rifle in this craziness....

 

Hope is not a plan....i know....but i hope it does not go that way

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41 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

What did you honestly think was going to happen with these 'other' firearms?

 

Want an SBR? SBS? Move to a gun friendly state and file the stamp...

 

Someone will buy it....  and they don't care how many thousands have been sold...

 

Also AR15 is next, in NJ no grandfather, rest of the country yea...but you won't be able to sell it or transfer it...  hope i am wrong, but it seems that way is coming.....  

I no longer own an AR, i pulled a lot of money out of an 800 rifle in this craziness....

 

Hope is not a plan....i know....but i hope it does not go that way

Pretty much all .30 M1 or Mosin or any other old gun owners are the same in opinions. Thanks, but real line of events might be not as good to M1 owners as well. They are not going to stop on AR ....

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2 hours ago, leo-польд said:

Pretty much all .30 M1 or Mosin or any other old gun owners are the same in opinions. Thanks, but real line of events might be not as good to M1 owners as well. They are not going to stop on AR ....

They arent....its incremental...

 

No its not...and just saying...i am NOT selling my M1...if it comes to that....it is not going anywhere....

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11 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

If you built one, it's my understanding that you can remove the brace and still be legal. The proposed rules are when a firearm with a brace becomes a SBR. No brace, no problem. 

If you bought one completed, youre shitouttaluck.

Not clear, what is the difference?

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3 hours ago, leo-польд said:

Not clear, what is the difference?

Atf rules distinguish taking off a brace may not change anything.. 

 

If you built one who's to say it was ever there? 

15 hours ago, pjd832 said:

Take the brace off a bought or built other in nj or any state with barrel or barrel/pinned or welded muzzle device  less than 16” without a stamp.. you just built a felony  at least one lol

? A brace has never been an integral part to an other. Doesn't matter if it's there or not. 

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5 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

Atf rules distinguish taking off a brace may not change anything.. 

 

If you built one who's to say it was ever there? 

? A brace has never been an integral part to an other. Doesn't matter if it's there or not. 

Ok I’ll walk down that street With you… if the other/brace ban comes to fruition …

what is the barrel length of an other? 10.5” - 12.5” …. Take off the brace and do what.. put on a stock? You have just build an unstamped sbr …not even an option in nj ……

so take off the brace and vfg leave the buffer tube bare…you have an ar pistol  not legal in nj

 have any other ar or stocks in your house/garage/property… constructive intent to build an sbr…

take off the brace leave the vfg nj would call that an “illegal assault pistol”…not sure in other states …but would no doubt be found illegal as it would be considered an ar pistol with a vfg… 

Best hope would seem to me to be 16”barrel and stock swap making it a rifle for the poor souls trapped in nj that own a Troy “other”

if it’s a built one…disassemble, get rid of the short barrel or pin one of those goofy long muzzle devices on and no one knows anything more than parts for future rifle builds

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8 hours ago, pjd832 said:

Ok I’ll walk down that street With you… if the other/brace ban comes to fruition …

what is the barrel length of an other? 10.5” - 12.5” …. Take off the brace and do what.. put on a stock? You have just build an unstamped sbr …not even an option in nj ……

so take off the brace and vfg leave the buffer tube bare…you have an ar pistol  not legal in nj

 have any other ar or stocks in your house/garage/property… constructive intent to build an sbr…

take off the brace leave the vfg nj would call that an “illegal assault pistol”…not sure in other states …but would no doubt be found illegal as it would be considered an ar pistol with a vfg… 

Best hope would seem to me to be 16”barrel and stock swap making it a rifle for the poor souls trapped in nj that own a Troy “other”

if it’s a built one…disassemble, get rid of the short barrel or pin one of those goofy long muzzle devices on and no one knows anything more than parts for future rifle builds

What? Just take off the brace.. period.  

The brace has NEVER been a defining part of an other. 

So.. take it off and leave the VFG on... your still over 26" without a stock...and a firearm designed to be used with two hands.  

How can NJ call something an assualt pistol it had already declared an other? Why isn't it already declared an assualt pistol with a brace? 

Your argument makes zero sense. 

The ATF for a few years has already said that a brace is simply an accessory, to be removed when evaluating the firearm, especially for OAL. 

If your argument was even remotely possible, ALL of that would have been possible without the new ATF rules... 

Rules for an other: 

No stock, check

Over 26" check

Vfg, check.

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29 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

What? Just take off the brace.. period.  

The brace has NEVER been a defining part of an other. 

So.. take it off and leave the VFG on... your still over 26" without a stock...and a firearm designed to be used with two hands.  

How can NJ ……….

 

“How can nj?” …..how can they do all the bs they do? They do it and you take it….example you guys get excited and feel blessed when it only takes 3 days for your 4473 to go through….45+ other states it’s seconds to get the proceed…..

Perhaps you should read through the determination letters… by both the njsp firearms unit and atf…. Both reference sb tactical brace…. and say similarly “ the determination was based on the submitted models in their present  configurations, if the design or dimensions change it may change the classification of the firearm” ….. taking off the brace is part of the design….

Go ahead and do it… then call the atf and ask them to make a house all to verify your recent modification is legal… let us know how that works out for you…. That is when you get computer time in the pen lmao

you just like to argue on dead end invalid points :rofl:

 

 

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1 hour ago, pjd832 said:

“How can nj?” …..how can they do all the bs they do? They do it and you take it….example you guys get excited and feel blessed when it only takes 3 days for your 4473 to go through….45+ other states it’s seconds to get the proceed…..

Perhaps you should read through the determination letters… by both the njsp firearms unit and atf…. Both reference sb tactical brace…. and say similarly “ the determination was based on the submitted models in their present  configurations, if the design or dimensions change it may change the classification of the firearm” ….. taking off the brace is part of the design….

Go ahead and do it… then call the atf and ask them to make a house all to verify your recent modification is legal… let us know how that works out for you…. That is when you get computer time in the pen lmao

you just like to argue on dead end invalid points :rofl:

 

 

The letters said that the brace did not constitute a stock.... not to mention the letters don't actually mean anything. Does removing the brace substantially change the firearm? No. It didn't have a stock before and it doesn't have one when removed. Go figure. The most recent letters literally refer to the brace as not an integral part of the design used to make the determination of the firearm. Thus SHOULD BE REMOVED during assessment by the ATF. 

 

So your argument is "because NJ"? 

Got it. Let me know if you have an actual valid point to make. 

I listed the legal requirements for an other.. not much else to say. I never would have figured the actually lawful definition of an other would be a dead end argument. Yet the argument "because NJ" is an enforceable point. 

 

And just for clarity, here is the ATF letter that supports my claims. 

https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/atf-folded-brace_redacted.pdf

 

So, do you have anything to actually reference that claims a weapon over 26" with a vfg and no stock would be considered a pistol? You don't need a letter from the ATF or NJSP claiming something is legal... do you have a letter for all of your firearms? I doubt you even have one. Will NJ just arrest you for having an assualt pistol because they just do what they want? 

 

So people can throw a vfg on a "pistol" and it's still a pistol? Good fucking luck with that one.... the ATF already said a VFG on anything expext a rifle makes it either an other, or an AOW. 

Maybe I will just just register them as AOWs 

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@JackDaWack I also agree with your analysis that the Pistol Brace is not part of the other definition and thus it can be removed. And by this logic, if the brace is an accessory you should be able to remove it whether it was bought or built by you. And in any case, how the hell can they see how the other was originally bought? I'm sure that there is no record at your FFL of how the other was configured.

I thought an "AOW" has the definition of being concealed and a smooth barrel, which will make most the others non conforming, am I wrong?

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12 minutes ago, El Jefe said:

@JackDaWack I also agree with your analysis that the Pistol Brace is not part of the other definition and thus it can be removed. And by this logic, if the brace is an accessory you should be able to remove it whether it was bought or built by you. And in any case, how the hell can they see how the other was originally bought? I'm sure that there is no record at your FFL of how the other was configured.

I thought an "AOW" has the definition of being concealed and a smooth barrel, which will make most the others non conforming, am I wrong?

Agree, there is no record besides NICS on these firearms, how would they know you build it or got factory made? I am thinking of getting another upper to my other same size and I am scared but logically upper just a part, same as BCG or whatever.

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16 minutes ago, El Jefe said:

@JackDaWack I also agree with your analysis that the Pistol Brace is not part of the other definition and thus it can be removed. And by this logic, if the brace is an accessory you should be able to remove it whether it was bought or built by you. And in any case, how the hell can they see how the other was originally bought? I'm sure that there is no record at your FFL of how the other was configured.

I thought an "AOW" has the definition of being concealed and a smooth barrel, which will make most the others non conforming, am I wrong?

All I know is the ATF rules say that if you take it off, it doesn't necessarily change anything..  however they have absolutely no way of knowing if you built one. If you bought one they can trace them from the manufacturer all the way to your house. So yes they absolutely know which ones were transferred as built and which were recievers. 

 

AOW is under 26", for me.. throwing a standard carbine buffer on and removing the A5 would do the trick. An AOW is the same rules for an other, it's just concealable

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54 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

All I know is the ATF rules say that if you take it off, it doesn't necessarily change anything..  however they have absolutely no way of knowing if you built one. If you bought one they can trace them from the manufacturer all the way to your house. So yes they absolutely know which ones were transferred as built and which were recievers. 

 

AOW is under 26", for me.. throwing a standard carbine buffer on and removing the A5 would do the trick. An AOW is the same rules for an other, it's just concealable

So they could trace factory other and they can't trace your lower you got from FFL? What the difference? 

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50 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

All I know is the ATF rules say that if you take it off, it doesn't necessarily change anything..  however they have absolutely no way of knowing if you built one. If you bought one they can trace them from the manufacturer all the way to your house. So yes they absolutely know which ones were transferred as built and which were recievers. 

 

AOW is under 26", for me.. throwing a standard carbine buffer on and removing the A5 would do the trick. An AOW is the same rules for an other, it's just concealable

Indeed.

I think the thing that people are getting hung up on is the fact that the "brace" was really a replacement for a stock (which would make it 'illegal').

The rule doesn't say you must have something on the buffer tube that looks like a brace or a stock, it just says you can't have the stock.

You still have a vertical grip and the rest of the features that make it far less harmful than an AR, so you're still good to go.

Maybe make a big ball of duct tape for the end of the buffer tube if you want to shoulder it at the range...

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4 hours ago, leo-польд said:

Agree, there is no record besides NICS on these firearms, how would they know you build it or got factory made? I am thinking of getting another upper to my other same size and I am scared but logically upper just a part, same as BCG or whatever.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

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1 minute ago, 1LtCAP said:

What this form means? When you are getting lower to build or you are getting factory made firearm you are using exactly the same forms while you are at your FFL facility.

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20 minutes ago, leo-польд said:

What this form means? When you are getting lower to build or you are getting factory made firearm you are using exactly the same forms while you are at your FFL facility.

that is the form that gets filled out when buying a firearm at a ffl.

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5 hours ago, leo-польд said:

how would they know you build it or got factory made?

If you look at that 4473 form, it lists the manufacturer and model number, so they would know based on that description, it was just a lower or a complete firearm.

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