new here need help with NJ complaince

[82flh 16]

thanks

 

 

[High Exposure 5,662]

No, a simple tac or spot weld is not enough in NJ.

Look at what the ATF/Feds consider “permanent”. That will cover you.

“ Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over.” 

Ref: ATF 5320-8 ATF National Firearms Act Handbook, pg. 5.

 

 

Normal disclaimer - I am NOT a lawyer. Do your own research. 

[82flh 16]

ok thanks

[silverado427 10,681]

AR barrels 16" in length just need to be pinned.   AR barrels 14.5" need to be pinned and welded  as per ATF.

 

[High Exposure 5,662]

6 hours ago, silverado427 said:

AR barrels 16" in length just need to be pinned.   AR barrels 14.5" need to be pinned and welded  as per ATF.

 

Yes. Under 16” you have to follow the ATF rule regardless - which says pin with weld, if you aren’t doing the other two options they provide.

But if you’re going to pin at over 16” in order to be NJ legal, you probably should weld too IMO - It ensures the pin stays in place and prevents moisture from getting into the pin and threads.

I have seen some pretty nice pin jobs -  @Shane45 pinned a 16” barrel for me with a solid pin in a very tight compression fit and no weld over it. It is amazing craftsmanship and I have full confidence it isn’t going anywhere - but that is an exception, not the rule, in my experience.

[82flh 16]

thanks

[82flh 16]

ok

[Bill21 0]

Hello, I’m new here and didn’t see a topic on this question. I was at my local ffl yesterday and purchased a epic-9 lower.. I’m planning on building me an AR9. I found this barrel it’s Odin works super lite. I mean this thing looks sweet. I asked the ffl if this barrel was nj compliant since there are no threads at the end of the barrel. He said no but honestly wasn’t sure and wouldn’t want to risk it.. can anyone clear this up for me? Any feed back or other options would be greatly appreciated thank you. I can reply with a link didn’t want to just post if not allowed. But a quick duck duck go would bring it up right quick 

[JohnnyB 4,323]

4 hours ago, Bill21 said:

Hello, I’m new here and didn’t see a topic on this question. I was at my local ffl yesterday and purchased a epic-9 lower.. I’m planning on building me an AR9. I found this barrel it’s Odin works super lite. I mean this thing looks sweet. I asked the ffl if this barrel was nj compliant since there are no threads at the end of the barrel. He said no but honestly wasn’t sure and wouldn’t want to risk it.. can anyone clear this up for me? Any feed back or other options would be greatly appreciated thank you. I can reply with a link didn’t want to just post if not allowed. But a quick duck duck go would bring it up right quick 

Looks to me like it has a built in flash hider. No go in the PRNJ. I would not recommend!  Even if the cuts were only designed to eliminate weight they look like a flash hider.

[YankeeSC 1,204]

On 2/20/2022 at 7:20 AM, Bill21 said:

I found this barrel it’s Odin works super lite.

It's marketed as a muzzle break, which is not illegal in NJ,

https://www.odinworks.com/9mm-16-Super-Lite-Barrel-p/b-9mm-16-sl.htm

 

https://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm

[njviper91 25]

While we are on this subject, i am also planing a new build.  I was planning on using a Vais muzzle break.  I assume this is all good.  It will be permanent like the image below.  Just want to completely confirm before dropping the 150.00 on it.

[Bill21 0]

Is that A one pice barrel chambered in 9mm? 

[raz-0 1,259]

39 minutes ago, njviper91 said:

While we are on this subject, i am also planing a new build.  I was planning on using a Vais muzzle break.  I assume this is all good.  It will be permanent like the image below.  Just want to completely confirm before dropping the 150.00 on it.

That's a comp/break and similar were being sold during the AWB as well as being able to pass the pinky test. It should be fine. 

[High Exposure 5,662]

Pinky test is urban legend.

Whatever the manufacturer designs the device to be (hider/break/comp) and whatever features they decide to advertise when selling it, is what it is.

If it is called a brake or a compensator and the product description doesn’t mention “flash reduction” than it is merely a brake/comp.

There is no threshold for the measurement of the reduction of any “flash” to make something legal or illegal in NJ. Even if there was, there is not even a “flash standard” to measure it against. I can fire ten rounds through the same rifle and get ten different flash signatures.

Ultimately, ammo selection and barrel length has a lot more to do with reducing flash than the device at the end of the barrel.

[raz-0 1,259]

The pinky test isn’t going to keep you out of jail, but the njsp firearms division has mentioned it in the past. 

Those barrels are basically permanently attached bloop tubes with slots cut in it.  It’s not going to function as a comp and you will likely get very little muzzle flash. 

I’m never comfortable telling people they are good to go on something that may cost them five figures in legal fees to keep them out of jail. 

If you asked me to argue which it is from a a technical standpoint, i can argue both ways, but I’m going to have a longer list for why it could function as a flash hider. 

[High Exposure 5,662]

Understood, and as I have said, take advice here as worth what you paid for it.

Any gun in NJ can cost you time and money.

That being said, the company’s intent and description of the item is going to be weighted a little higher than your opinion.

In my mind it’s similar to making the argument that a 10 round .40 Glock 23 mag is illegal because you can fit 12 9mm rounds in it and the mag will function in a G19.

[njviper91 25]

Damn this state, I would really be just for looks, the barrel is going to be 22" I doubt the gun will move much to begin with.  May just go without it. :/

[JeepGunner 109]

7 hours ago, High Exposure said:

That being said, the company’s intent and description of the item is going to be weighted a little higher than your opinion.

 

I wonder what the actual process is.  I mean. for example, you can buy a brake off ebay with no manufacturer info and no product description.  There has to be some objective criteria the NJSP would use to determine if the device was a brake/comp or hider.  The pinky test seems a lot more plausible in this hypothetical case. 

[Bill21 0]

3 hours ago, JeepGunner said:

I wonder what the actual process is.  I mean. for example, you can buy a brake off ebay with no manufacturer info and no product description.  There has to be some objective criteria the NJSP would use to determine if the device was a brake/comp or hider.  The pinky test seems a lot more plausible in this hypothetical case. 

I think they make it up as the go. I’m new the this world bought my first in 2020. Man the things I have come across that make my head hurt. 

[High Exposure 5,662]

6 hours ago, JeepGunner said:

I wonder what the actual process is.  I mean. for example, you can buy a brake off ebay with no manufacturer info and no product description.  There has to be some objective criteria the NJSP would use to determine if the device was a brake/comp or hider.  The pinky test seems a lot more plausible in this hypothetical case. 

Ok. Whose pinky do we use? It is always the same persons pinky? Do they have hands like Shaq?  Or hands like a 12 year old Swedish girl? Is the pinky calibrated to caliber the gun is chambered in? If so, how?  If my pinky fits, and yours does not, what is it - brake or hider?

[FairbanksRusty 64]

I’ve heard “pinky” used for decades. Who came up with that should be flogged. 
 

Good rule of thumb if there’s no literature to qualify the muzzle device is match the exit hole of the device to the bore diameter. Can’t go wrong and you won’t be pinkying around. 

[JeepGunner 109]

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

Ok. Whose pinky do we use? It is always the same persons pinky? Do they have hands like Shaq?  Or hands like a 12 year old Swedish girl? Is the pinky calibrated to caliber the gun is chambered in? If so, how?  If my pinky fits, and yours does not, what is it - brake or hider?

Obviously the size of the exit hole needs to be relative to the bullet diameter. 

The point is, what happens in the absence of manufacturer description?

[YankeeSC 1,204]

1 hour ago, JeepGunner said:

The point is, what happens in the absence of manufacturer description?

Do you have any examples of this?

[High Exposure 5,662]

24 minutes ago, FairbanksRusty said:

Good rule of thumb if there’s no literature to qualify the muzzle device is match the exit hole of the device to the bore diameter. Can’t go wrong and you won’t be pinkying around. 

 

20 minutes ago, JeepGunner said:

Obviously the size of the exit hole needs to be relative to the bullet diameter. 

Why? What makes the diameter of the exit hole in respect to the caliber a flash hider or not? If I put a muzzle device for a .308 on a 5.56 rifle, what happens? Is it now a brake or a hider? What about a .50 cal device?

 

21 minutes ago, JeepGunner said:

The point is, what happens in the absence of manufacturer description?

No clue. I’ve never bought a device that wasn’t from a major manufacturer that had a product description that made my device legal for the platform I was installing it on.

That seems foolish for a lot of reasons - firstly being legality. Secondly, I’m not buying cheap crap from an unknown source/manufacturer. 

6 minutes ago, YankeeSC said:

Do you have any examples of this?

Beat me to it.

[JeepGunner 109]

12 minutes ago, YankeeSC said:

Do you have any examples of this?

Go look at eBay, tons of brakes without manufacturers. If the cops question your device, what description are they going to go back to?  Are they going to look at pictures on the Internet to match up your device to a listing on ebay?  Maybe, I don't know.

Further, as far as I am aware, no where in the statutes does it state they will look at the manufacturer description of the part to determine legality. We know what features generally make a brake/comp vs. hider.  I don't think they have anything on that either in the law.  They may really be using the pinky test as much as it upsets this crowd.

If my understanding is incorrect, please point me towards the legal ref or statements from the NJSP on the topic.  Otherwise, everyone is just posting opinions here. 

 

 

[High Exposure 5,662]

51 minutes ago, JeepGunner said:

Go look at eBay, tons of brakes without manufacturers. If the cops question your device, what description are they going to go back to?  Are they going to look at pictures on the Internet to match up your device to a listing on ebay?  Maybe, I don't know.

Further, as far as I am aware, no where in the statutes does it state they will look at the manufacturer description of the part to determine legality. We know what features generally make a brake/comp vs. hider.  I don't think they have anything on that either in the law.  They may really be using the pinky test as much as it upsets this crowd.

If my understanding is incorrect, please point me towards the legal ref or statements from the NJSP on the topic.  Otherwise, everyone is just posting opinions here. 

 

 

The statute also doesn’t say they will use a pinky, measurement, or mathematical equation to determine what the device is.

What features make a device a brake vs a comp vs a hider?

Again, I can use the same rifle with the same device and get two different flash signatures simply by using different ammo.

If you are buying unbranded no-name devices to save a few bucks, you’ll have to roll the dice. That’s on the buyer. I also never understood the allure of dropping $1k on a rifle, another $300 on optics and light, and buying a shit brake (or other component) to put on it so you save $50. Seems counter productive to me. Like buying a $5k 1911 and carrying it in an unbranded $10 gun show special holster.

At the end of the day, there is no codified definition for any device type.

You can only do what your comfortable with. I am comfortable with using the manufacturers description. If I ever have an issue I will point to that and say - “I followed the law and purchased a brake/comp” - or even a hider if it’s on an appropriate platform.

[YankeeSC 1,204]

57 minutes ago, JeepGunner said:

If my understanding is incorrect, please point me towards the legal ref or statements from the NJSP on the topic.

I did that in my original post, specifically to avoid this debate.  I guess you didn't read it.  To be clear you won't find a reference or definition for a flash suppressor in the law 2C:39-1, so the NJAG provided guidance in the memo I linked to.

https://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=Publish:10.1048/Enu

Search for "2C:39-1 Definitions".  (it won't let me directly link to it)

For the NJSP reference (which mirrors the AG, see item 15).

57 minutes ago, JeepGunner said:

Go look at eBay, tons of brakes without manufacturers

Right, they are "unbranded" and all marketed as muzzle brakes.

[njviper91 25]

I have another compliance question.

Would this stock be considered Fixed or Adjustable?

https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/stocks/ar15-m4-m16-sr25-m110-ar10/prs-lite.html?mp_global_color=118

You cant adjust it without a tool, but you are able to adjust LOP on it with an allen key.

I want what is ultimately a fixed stock, I am between this and a generic A2 fixed stock.  I do however kinda want to be able to adjust the LOP since i feel my arms are kinda short.

[High Exposure 5,662]

2 hours ago, njviper91 said:

I want what is ultimately a fixed stock, I am between this and a generic A2 fixed stock.  I do however kinda want to be able to adjust the LOP since i feel my arms are kinda short.

If this is your concern, you should keep in mind that the LOP of a standard A2 stock (13.5”) is shorter than the shortest length you can adjust for on the Magpul stock (13.85”).

Another option is to get an A1 stock with a LOP of 12.875”

[raz-0 1,259]

2 hours ago, njviper91 said:

I have another compliance question.

Would this stock be considered Fixed or Adjustable?

https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/stocks/ar15-m4-m16-sr25-m110-ar10/prs-lite.html?mp_global_color=118

You cant adjust it without a tool, but you are able to adjust LOP on it with an allen key.

I want what is ultimately a fixed stock, I am between this and a generic A2 fixed stock.  I do however kinda want to be able to adjust the LOP since i feel my arms are kinda short.

During the federal AWB the PRS and other stocks with adjustable buttpads using tools were considered fixed stocks. Ace had one IIRC. There was the clubfoot. So it should be good to go.  For clarity, the AWB clubfoot needed tools to change the length. The current version is just a regular collapsible stock.