Supreme Court Takes First 2A Case in a Decade

[GRIZ 3,369]

2 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

so again......how? how did a poor 18 year old have that kind of loot?

 

My understanding is that Daniel Defense offers a buy now, pay later program.

Not a bad thing.  When I turned 21, back in the 70s,  I was assaulted by numerous credit card offers.  At that time I used credit cards to buy SCUBA equipment.  Thought I has enough guns.

[Newtonian 453]

It's possible to get a gun almost anywhere in the world. It's very hard in China and N. Korea, ok, but gun ownership is very high in Canada, former Yugoslavia, Uruguay, Russia, Yemen (!), Switzerland, Germany. You can pull strings almost everywhere except the two countries mentioned and get a gun. The world is SWIMMING in guns. The white US population has approximately the same murder rate as northern Europe; even US blacks have LOW rates (though much higher than US whites') compared with Africans in the rest of the world. Yet we have these god-awful incidents. Do we have more crazy people? It's unlikely given we are a melting pot and demographically mirror the rest of the world, more or less, and we are still richer than most countries. What gives?

1. We take more drugs, especially mood altering drugs

2. We have a horrendous, profit-driven medical (and mental health) system whose mission is not to heal but to sell drugs -- doctors are pretty much salesmen for pharma and expensive procedures

3. Our government is out of control and is run by psychopath enforcers owned by mega-corporations

Any other ideas?

[ShootersShooter 120]

I believe your 1st point on drug use is spot-on. I had posted elsewhere when commenting on the new legal NJ weed that I felt decades of drug use has diminished brain function of each successive generations. 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

8 hours ago, GRIZ said:

My understanding is that Daniel Defense offers a buy now, pay later program.

Not a bad thing.  When I turned 21, back in the 70s,  I was assaulted by numerous credit card offers.  At that time I used credit cards to buy SCUBA equipment.  Thought I has enough guns.

ok. that would make sense.

 

 i had the same experience when i was 20 or so...."pre-approved" cc applications out the wazoo. i used a few to the point that i hadda bankrupt my way out of them. that's actually part of why i refuse to own a card of any kind, and went to cash or check for most day to day stuff.

 know what they did soon as the bankruptcy was done? i got slammed aGAIN with those pre-approved things. and shredded every single one of em.

8 hours ago, Newtonian said:

It's possible to get a gun almost anywhere in the world. It's very hard in China and N. Korea, ok, but gun ownership is very high in Canada, former Yugoslavia, Uruguay, Russia, Yemen (!), Switzerland, Germany. You can pull strings almost everywhere except the two countries mentioned and get a gun. The world is SWIMMING in guns. The white US population has approximately the same murder rate as northern Europe; even US blacks have LOW rates (though much higher than US whites') compared with Africans in the rest of the world. Yet we have these god-awful incidents. Do we have more crazy people? It's unlikely given we are a melting pot and demographically mirror the rest of the world, more or less, and we are still richer than most countries. What gives?

1. We take more drugs, especially mood altering drugs

2. We have a horrendous, profit-driven medical (and mental health) system whose mission is not to heal but to sell drugs -- doctors are pretty much salesmen for pharma and expensive procedures

3. Our government is out of control and is run by psychopath enforcers owned by mega-corporations

Any other ideas?

we do have more crazy people. at least since they decided to stop putting them in loony bins, and medicate them instead.

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

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[10X 3,296]

38 minutes ago, samiam said:

That does not seem to be consistent with the claim that he paid with a debit card, unless what he paid with the card was a smallish deposit. If that was the case, I would have expected the anti-2A media to make a big deal of him being able to buy an "assault rifle" with a small deposit. 

Well, they are making a bid deal over how easy it was for him to buy the rifle online.  One media site showed that it only took 5 clicks on the Daniels Defense website to order the same rifle.  But they pretty much gloss over the fact that the online order only results in the rifle being sent to the FFL who is going to run the NICS check and do the transfer paperwork.

[CMJeepster 2,777]

2 minutes ago, 10X said:

Well, they are making a bid deal over how easy it was for him to buy the rifle online.  One media site showed that it only took 5 clicks on the Daniels Defense website to order the same rifle.  But they pretty much gloss over the fact that the online order only results in the rifle being sent to the FFL who is going to run the NICS check and do the transfer paperwork.

Facts don't matter, man!

[JohnnyB 4,321]

 

No SCOTUS decision today!

 

[CMJeepster 2,777]

Why can't this get leaked like the other stuff?

[raz-0 1,259]

4 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

 

No SCOTUS decision today!

 

It will be on the last possible day. There is zero reason to believe otherwise and stop listening to the click farmers that suggest otherwise. 
 

Every 2a case has been, not to mention that they have the biggest backlog since the 1950s. It’s not going to be alone, most (I suspect all) of the remaining rulings are going to be the last day. 

[Newtonian 453]

20 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

 

No SCOTUS decision today!

 

I get bad vibes when I see posts like this. In the past they've been harbingers of disappointment. Just sayin'. 

 

[JohnnyB 4,321]

1 minute ago, Newtonian said:

I get bad vibes when I see posts like this. In the past they've been harbingers of disappointment. Just sayin'. 

 

I have good vibes about a good opinion for us, I'm just disappointed that I spent 1/2 hour on Scotusblog and many there thought that the case decision would likely come out today!  Three other cases did but not ours.  The next chance is for next Monday.

[Newtonian 453]

Has anyone posted a strategy for applying for NJ CC in the event of a favorable ruling? Should we have an application ready to submit?

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

51 minutes ago, Newtonian said:

Has anyone posted a strategy for applying for NJ CC in the event of a favorable ruling? Should we have an application ready to submit?

Everything I've read/heard (including the ANJRPC/Schmutter video and the latest Gun For Hire Podcast with Scott Bach of ANJRPC) says trying to prep is a crapshoot, because no one knows for certain how the state of NJ will react if we get a favorable decision in Bruen that makes the justifiable need requirement unconstitutional.

Best case scenario I've heard -  NJ judges stop enforcing the justifiable need portion immediately after the Bruen decision and/or the NJ Attorney General issues guidance that justifiable need is no longer a requirement.

In that scenario, you could prep by passing a live fire qualification course at a recognized range that also does LEO/SORA qualifications and then submit your carry permit application as "normal".  Depending on your police chief's proclivities, it may get denied by her/him, in which case you would appeal and it would come before a judge, or the chief approves it and then it goes before a judge anyway.  Schmutter has suggested that judges might not adhere to the justifiable need requirement if SCOTUS has ruled it unconstitutional because they (NJ Judges) may be subject to sanctions/liability otherwise.

[Newtonian 453]

6 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Everything I've read/heard (including the ANJRPC/Schmutter video and the latest Gun For Hire Podcast with Scott Bach of ANJRPC) says trying to prep is a crapshoot, because no one knows for certain how the state of NJ will react if we get a favorable decision in Bruen that makes the justifiable need requirement unconstitutional.

Best case scenario I've heard -  NJ judges stop enforcing the justifiable need portion immediately after the Bruen decision and/or the NJ Attorney General issues guidance that justifiable need is no longer a requirement.

In that scenario, you could prep by passing a live fire qualification course at a recognized range that also does LEO/SORA qualifications and then submit your carry permit application as "normal".  Depending on your police chief's proclivities, it may get denied by her/him, in which case you would appeal and it would come before a judge, or the chief approves it and then it goes before a judge anyway.  Schmutter has suggested that judges might not adhere to the justifiable need requirement if SCOTUS has ruled it unconstitutional because they (NJ Judges) may be subject to sanctions/liability otherwise.

I must have been asleep for the past several years. Can anyone take that live fire course? Do you have any other info or links?

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

2 minutes ago, Newtonian said:

I must have been asleep for the past several years. Can anyone take that live fire course? Do you have any other info or links?

Some places have requirements that you actually were LEO to take a retired LEO qual.  It appears that GFH does not, I'm sure there are other ranges that will let you take it.

https://gunforhire.com/academy/security-officer-and-retired-pd/

[1LtCAP 4,262]

1 hour ago, JohnnyB said:

 

No SCOTUS decision today!

 

i hate to say it, but i fear that they're talking it over, and it could well go wrong with all this crap going on.....

[1LtCAP 4,262]

1 hour ago, Newtonian said:

Has anyone posted a strategy for applying for NJ CC in the event of a favorable ruling? Should we have an application ready to submit?

 

20 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Everything I've read/heard (including the ANJRPC/Schmutter video and the latest Gun For Hire Podcast with Scott Bach of ANJRPC) says trying to prep is a crapshoot, because no one knows for certain how the state of NJ will react if we get a favorable decision in Bruen that makes the justifiable need requirement unconstitutional.

Best case scenario I've heard -  NJ judges stop enforcing the justifiable need portion immediately after the Bruen decision and/or the NJ Attorney General issues guidance that justifiable need is no longer a requirement.

In that scenario, you could prep by passing a live fire qualification course at a recognized range that also does LEO/SORA qualifications and then submit your carry permit application as "normal".  Depending on your police chief's proclivities, it may get denied by her/him, in which case you would appeal and it would come before a judge, or the chief approves it and then it goes before a judge anyway.  Schmutter has suggested that judges might not adhere to the justifiable need requirement if SCOTUS has ruled it unconstitutional because they (NJ Judges) may be subject to sanctions/liability otherwise.

based on these, perhaps it would be time for a "how to qualify" type thread? 'specially from the more informed guys in here?

 

 i'm not confident in a positive ruling anymore based on the recent spat......but i'd like to be set to go to my pd with the application at the ready if we do........i'm already legally armed here at the shop, and at home..........

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

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[Grima Squeakersen 482]

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[1LtCAP 4,262]

would be good though for some sort of info for us to qualify.

 i'm gonna reach out to a couple instructor friends of mine and see what they've got.....or if they're even aware(hopefully they are) of thse current developments

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

Again, for emphasis - WE DON'T KNOW HOW NJ WILL REACT TO A "FAVORABLE" DECISION IN BRUEN - the "prep" being discussed here could end up not being useful at all for getting a NJ carry license.

It's possible that a post-Bruen application gets denied anyway and forces you to appeal to pursue it, or the application gets stayed pending "new rules" or "further clarification".  It's possible that NJ "fights back" by making the qualification course ludicrously difficult to buy time while challenges work their way through the courts, and invalidates any "pre-Bruen" qualifications.

[Mr.Stu 1,916]

The flip side is that if NJ makes qualifying super hard, the cops won't pass either. Too many can barely pass their quals now.

[CMJeepster 2,777]

14 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

The flip side is that if NJ makes qualifying super hard, the cops won't pass either. Too many can barely pass their quals now.

You ain't kidding.  I went camping with a friend / neighbor this weekend.  He's a supervisor on a local department around here.  He told me about how many of his staff aren't good at qualifying.  My jaw dropped.

[Newtonian 453]

1 hour ago, DirtyDigz said:

Again, for emphasis - WE DON'T KNOW HOW NJ WILL REACT TO A "FAVORABLE" DECISION IN BRUEN - the "prep" being discussed here could end up not being useful at all for getting a NJ carry license.

It's possible that a post-Bruen application gets denied anyway and forces you to appeal to pursue it, or the application gets stayed pending "new rules" or "further clarification".  It's possible that NJ "fights back" by making the qualification course ludicrously difficult to buy time while challenges work their way through the courts, and invalidates any "pre-Bruen" qualifications.

There can be no challenges to SCOTUS rulings. What will instead occur is NJ and NY will institute clearly unconstitutional (and anti-ruling) training or financial requirements, which will have to be litigated, which will take time...unless the ruling somehow warns states not to f**k around.

If anyone who knows the application process decides to start that thread, please notify us here.

[EX Carnival man 223]

20 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

The flip side is that if NJ makes qualifying super hard, the cops won't pass either. Too many can barely pass their quals now.

You really think cops will have to follow the same rules as us little people? 

[Mr.Stu 1,916]

I did some force-on-force training as a role player for a NJ town PD.

One exercise was 2 officers start facing each other. Each has a sims gun with an empty mag and an empty chamber in their holster. On the signal it is a race to see who can draw, press the trigger on target and get click-no-bang, do tap-rack drill at which point the slide will lock back due to the empty mag, execute a reload and put a shot on their opponent.

The lead instructor wouldn't let me play against any of the officers there except my friend that invited me to act as role player - it wouldn't be fair, he said.

[Mr.Stu 1,916]

8 minutes ago, EX Carnival man said:

You really think cops will have to follow the same rules as us little people? 

The admin code as it stands, doesn't describe the substance of any qualification test at all. It also says that passing any test in the State's laws governing use of force which has been administered by certain people with certain certifications can be done instead of a shooting qual.

Quote

(b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by:

1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;

2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or

3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.

 

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

42 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

The flip side is that if NJ makes qualifying super hard, the cops won't pass either. Too many can barely pass their quals now.

Or they make the current qualifications "available to LEO only", and all civilian-accessible qualifications impossible.

[raz-0 1,259]

4 hours ago, Newtonian said:

I get bad vibes when I see posts like this. In the past they've been harbingers of disappointment. Just sayin'. 

 

The last two in our favor were on the last day. It’s always the last day. It’s so they can leave town and not have to listen to people’s shit in dc.