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Supreme Court Takes First 2A Case in a Decade

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7 hours ago, KurtC said:

It would not surprise me in the least if NYC offers tax breaks to establishments that post "No Firearms" signs.

For anyone thinking they can ignore such signs and carry concealed into the building, the charge may only be criminal trespassing, but it will also get your permit revoked.

Murphy already said it, and I am 100% they are all colluding on this one, they will make the 'no carry' into public buildings and default no-carry onto private businesses. That means, business has to post "Carry Here", which 99.9999% of the businesses in NJ and NYC will NOT do.  And just like they did with COVID, the anti scumbags will also work the insurance angle. Any business that will post "Carry Here" will end up with hefty premiums because "of increase risk".

Usually, this type of garbage could be taken care of with short lawsuits at state level. But, knowing the liberal cesspool of the judicial system in this state, that will take another 15 years and scores of people going to jail and permanently prevented from exercising their 2A ever again.

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I doubt NJ will make private property defacto no gun zones without permission. That is in many ways a first amendment violation. The government can't speak for property owners willingness to allow or not allow a constitutionally protected act.

 

I dont see reciprocity happening, nj will claim other licensing or non licensing doesn't meet NJ standards. Unfortunately, SCOTUS left that door wide open. 

 

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Dont read too much into it. I have done 5 renewals of this sham 'for work only' """carry""" jersey permit. I would just photocopy the triplicate refs leaving the dates blank (In 2 short years, you would NEED the refs copies for renewal. Why? Cause its a HUGE PAIN.) Then, sign and date when you go to get it ALL notarized. It all goes to my local govt building in Camden, in a dingy dusty cob web infested dark basement where it sits and collects DUST. I know this is new uncharted territory. But they dont forensically analyze every form, digitally scan. send to the CIA. They do call your refs. You would need to notarize other docs not just the BS 3 triplicate refs. Just notarize everything... and w OVER 200k anticipated apps? LOL.

 Jersey is sick in the head and will refuse to follow the color and spirit and letter of this and other similar SCOTUS decision.

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They need 3 inked copies of the form because one stays with the local PD, one stays with the county and one goes to the SP.  

Fill out the form.  Make 2 additional copies (I make 3).  Take them to your references and have them sign each one.  When they are all signed, take them to the notary.  Sign your signature on them in front of the notary and have them notarized.

I do one extra, for my records, but also in case one of the references somehow botches their signature.

If you need to be fingerprinted by Morpho, stop by your local PD or SP and get the Investigation number.  You can then schedule your appointment on line.  If one Morpho doesn't have any openings, try another.  If you live near PA, use one of theirs.  They will have more appointments available than NJ.

Fortunately, we are now doing this in the digital age with the aid of the internet.  35 years ago, we had to fill out all the forms on a typewriter.  You had to fingerprinted by you local PD in person.  They were then mailed to the SBI and FBI for a criminal check, done by hand.  It often took 6 months or more just to run the prints.

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I am starting to get the idea that the CCW process will be a combination of in-person paperwork hand delivered to local PD and a portion done through FARS? The basic background check and mental health through FARS and all the other stuff done in paper?

FYI, for those here. I have used a bravo concealment OWB holster at my 3oclock for a number of training classes i took. It was cheap, effective, and satisfied the range and RSO liability issues. For the Quals we are going to need OWB holsters as most ranges will not allow us to draw from concealment holsters, i know this from training at TTC. I am shopping for another OWB holster that is light bearing now. So many choices, so little time!

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IMO, they will need to post NO CONCEALED WEAPONS.

This will turn out in the end to be a win for other states, but not for short term NJ...or other liberal crappy states....it will take any more years and lawsuits to get what other states have now.

.

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6 hours ago, samiam said:

Generally, regarding what Murphy & co may do or try to do to restrict where, when, and how the right to carry may be exercised: that's a legitimate concern. However, I respectfully suggest that we keep the horse in front of the cart. To me, job #1 is to get all interested (~200,000) civilians to obtain unrestricted NJ carry permits. Then we have the political clout and judicial standing to pursue overturning unconstitutional restrictions on where, when and how we may carry, and make those trying to enact those restirctions pay dearly for their efforts.

This is a very logical post...regardless if you can't carry pretty much anywhere, gaining standing is important I guess. 

I am not an attorney so I have no idea.

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The NJSP has no say unfortunately. Its GOOD OLE Trenton. 

Its about $160 currently, if you get a store to do your 3 pics. 

The applications old passport sized pics, 1.25 inches(?) NOBODY does that size anymore. I think its all now roughly 2 inch sized pics as the new standard. Of course they wont change it, just to mess w you. So what I do is get the pics taken to as best a scale as I can and cut it down to size w a pair of scissors. The whole application system is a SHAM AND A HUGE PAIN.

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32 minutes ago, samiam said:

So, in regard to fingerprinting, I just got off the phone with the desk sargent at Woodbine NJSP, which is my local PD for purposes of firearms issues. The results were less than completely satisfactory. He said:

1. If I have my state firearms id card, he didn't see why I would need to be fingerprinted again (he said he thought that was true even if my card is grandfathered from before the renewal requirements were enacted, which it is)

2. He said that he was told that NJ is going to formulate revised application requirements to be published sometime in July, and he advised that I wait until then (I'm not inlcined to do that)

3. He basically admitted that he didn't have a reliable answer for me, and that he was not in a position to issue me an ID  number to use at Sagem/Morpho at this time. 

The guy told me that he hopes that everyone in the state who isn't clearly disqualified gets their permit and starts carrying (I had the same reaction from a young NJSP trooper in Absecon from whom I purchased a used air conditioner last Tuesday when I discussed the Bruen case with him) so I don't think this was intentional obstruction on his part. But it does illustrate that intentional obstruction will not be our only obstacle, we will also need to navigate the miscommunication and bureaucratic BS at which Jersey excels :>( I plan to go ahead with my SP 640 using my existing prints (I not only have my NJFID prints on record, but I got printed at S/M early this year for one of my out-of-state permits), and see what happens. 

Me too! At this point the only thing i am waiting on is the clarified training requirements. I see no point in waiting until some time in July as the requirements laid out by the AG will not change. I did the same thing Quickz did regarding the pictures, i just print them out from a printer and cut them to size, it worked for my FID.

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22 minutes ago, marlintag said:

Me too! At this point the only thing i am waiting on is the clarified training requirements. I see no point in waiting until some time in July as the requirements laid out by the AG will not change. I did the same thing Quickz did regarding the pictures, i just print them out from a printer and cut them to size, it worked for my FID.

You needed pictures for your FPID?

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3 minutes ago, samiam said:

I just signed up at Full Metal Jacket in Seaville for the NRA Basic CCW course on July 30 - 31. The range told me it will require 350 - 400 rounds of ammo. That's a bit more than I keep in my gun safe so I need to get busy ordering. I also just ordered a rubber Hogue monogrip for the SP101. I've been meaning to do that for a while, anyway. The walnut grips look nice and fit my hands OK, but I suspect I'd be pretty well crippled up after firing 400 rounds in two days using them... I'm torn about whether to proceed with submitting my SP 640 before completing the course. The form and the instructions don't mention the need to submit proof of training/proficiency with the form, and under most circumstances it would be a reasonable presumption that it would be requested form me when they get around to processing the form, but this is NJ, which, when it comes to government, is a largely reason-free zone.

The instructions as of now are at the link (NJSP) below. Note that they are NOT updated to reflect the SCOTUS decision.

"Written proof of qualification and ownership with the handgun(s) you intend on
carrying if your application is approved. This must be recent at the time of the
application and must also be obtained from a certified firearms instructor."


.. https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/Permit_to_Carry_Instructions_v1.pdf

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16 hours ago, KurtC said:

They can easily use FARS to get an application started by using it for the initial background check, as done when applying for a purchase permit.  That would at least eliminate the trip to Morpho.

 

The NJSP started doing this for employee pink card holders, but this was just the Troopers in the FIU being innovative. FARS does not have an official section of it for pink card applications/renewals. They have the employees use the FIU's ORI number instead of their local town's ORI number. The request in FARS is coded as an application for an FID/HG purchase permit, the FIU then "cancels" the application once the FARS results come back (since it wasn't for an FID or HG purchase permit anyway). Not a perfect way to do it, but it does work better and faster than the old manual way. This could probably be adapted to work for carry permits, but with a much larger volume it could be messy without a specific carry section in FARS.

 

And for you computer programmers thinking it would be simple to add this into FARS, this is the state we're talking about - nothing is quick or simple with them. FARS still doesn't have a way for a dealer to execute a HG permit without a completed NICS check done first - so there is no way for a dealer to transfer air pistols, muzzle loader pistols, and antique pistols using FARS, a paper permit is still necessary. We've been told "they" are working on that fix since FARS first went online.

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21 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

The thing is Bucky treats law abiding citizens like criminals. 

If you go into the history of NJ and NJ law, you will see that isn't the case. NJ treats its citizens like chattel. We are the state that tried hardest to never leave the monarchy, and from top to bottom, it shows. 

Read a marriage license at some point. It's not a contract between you and your spouse, it's a contract between each of you and the state. Look at family law and how the state handles in loco parentis issues and you will see that children are the product of that contract and considered property of the state first and foremost. This concept is the source of hostility towards self defense. When someone damages the property of the crown it is an offense to the crown and the crown must even the score. To declare you have as much authority as the crown in your well being is simply unthinkable. Your act of self defense may harm property of the crown just as much as the criminal's offensive assault does, and both are affronts to the crown. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Oakridgefirearms said:

.......And for you computer programmers thinking it would be simple to add this into FARS, this is the state we're talking about - nothing is quick or simple with them. FARS still doesn't have a way for a dealer to execute a HG permit without a completed NICS check done first - so there is no way for a dealer to transfer air pistols, muzzle loader pistols, and antique pistols using FARS, a paper permit is still necessary. We've been told "they" are working on that fix since FARS first went online.

Acknowledging this is a Govt we are talking about and NJ nonetheless,  isnt RPO permit process already electronic ?

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46 minutes ago, samiam said:

Well, I signed up for the NRA Basic CCW course, on the theory that the NJ required training won't be more demanding than that. At the very least, since NRA is promting it as sufficient for NJ CC permitting qualification, if for some reason it isn't accepted I should be able to get some kind of financial adjustment made. My dilemma is that it isn't until very end of July (they had an earlier class beginning July 16, but I have an intractable conflict that week-end) I'm torn on whether to wait to submit my SP 640 until I get the class completion certificate, or proceed on the assumption that NJ will ask for it when the process my application.

I would not submit without a training cert. I got references done today. The only thing left for me to do is the pictures and notary. I had my last P2P in August so i shouldn't need fingerprints. The only issue left for me is the training... I have a number of pistol training certs that are recent, but without clarification i cannot move forward. Will NJ simply accept my various pistol certs? like you said, we can only hope that is sufficient. I suspect we will all have to go through quals like Anthony and others here mentioned.

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