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Supreme Court Takes First 2A Case in a Decade

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1 hour ago, samiam said:

OK, thanks for the correction on FPID. Nevertheless, once the SHTF in terms of application volume, I suspect they will find some pretext to avoid automatic approval at the 60 day deadline, possibly by finding the most picayune possible  issues with applications (endorsement reference signed with a felt tip, not an ink pen?) to reject as many as possible. Also, don't forget that Murphy can be executive order happy at times. An EO suspending the 60 day limit might ultimately get shot down, but that would require a court hearing, which could be appealed, etc. The only clear alternative I see is for them to deal with the anticipated volume is to expedite the process and remove nearly all the potential impediments. That is the rational, logical, course of action, but this is NJ, therefore I expect them to avoid it like the plague. 

I think this is gonna be PD dependent by town.

My town gets permits out fast. I actually applied over the weekend, had an issue with a reference getting the email. The issuing officer was on the phone with them today mid afternoon  after an email from me this morning and it's straighten out already. 

I can see the PD in my town working through applications quickly, as noted before, the county side might be a hang up but now it's just a rubber stamp for them. I feel lucky to have a town that really respects the process. Others will not be so fortunate. 

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I know none of you want to hear this but, its going to take time! My initial FID took over 3 months, my p2ps take 3 weeks. The PD's do not have clarification of the training requirements as I write this. Applying without knowing what the training requirements are will likely result in denial. We are all excited and anxious to start carrying, but it may take time!  The CCW process will be integrated into the FARS per a conversation with my PD, but we don't know how long that will take! I'm with KurtC, my instincts are telling me that a qualification course will be needed without exception. I currently await clarification on the training requirement...When i have it, FARS or paper I am moving forward.

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4 hours ago, LostinNJ said:

If you consider the number of CPLs in other states, the number of NJ apps could approach one million.

As I recall there are only about a million N.J. FID holders, perhaps less.

The 200,000 estimated CCW's by the state police seems more realistic.

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In the legal document world, commas, colons, semicolons the word “and”  and the word “or” have great meaning.
Note the word “or” at the end of paragraph b3. If we have an English major, or attorney on the forums maybe they can confirm my interpretation. The word “or” implies that you can submit 1, 2, 3, or 4 as evidence of familiarity. The semi colons after 1 and 2 merely state that there is more to follow. The “or” appears only after 3 because it is second to last.

 

 

 

13:54-2.4 Application for a permit to carry a handgun
(a) Every person applying for a permit to carry a handgun shall furnish such information and particulars as set forth in the application form designated SP 642. The application shall be signed by the applicant under oath and shall be endorsed by three reputable persons who have known the applicant for at least three years preceding the date of application, and who shall also certify thereon that the applicant is a person of good moral character and behavior. Applications can be obtained at police departments and State Police stations.
(b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns may be evidenced by:
1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;
2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor;
3. Completion of a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
4. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.
(c) Where available, the information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s). In the absence of, or in addition to (b)1 through 4 above, the applicant shall provide any other available and accurate information which may evidence his or her proficiency in the safe handling and use of firearms, including most recent handgun qualification scores and whether he or she utilized the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry, courses attended in the safe handling and use of firearms, and extent of knowledge, however gained, of this State's laws pertaining to the use of force in the defense of person and property.
(d) Each application form shall also be accompanied by a written certification of need which shall be under oath and which:

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Furthermore, retired law enforcement officers usually “qualify” as a condition of their retirement if they want to continue carrying a firearm. So they always elect option b2.

It has been that way for many years. Most of the existing “nj carry permits” are retired LEO. So we have a long standing tradition that most, if not all, have always chosen b2. It then becomes the norm per say.

I read the statue as it is written. We can elect 1,2,3 or 4. One of them.

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46 minutes ago, 68chris said:

Furthermore, retired law enforcement officers usually “qualify” as a condition of their retirement if they want to continue carrying a firearm. So they always elect option b2.

It has been that way for many years. Most of the existing “nj carry permits” are retired LEO. So we have a long standing tradition that most, if not all, have always chosen b2. It then becomes the norm per say.

I read the statue as it is written. We can elect 1,2,3 or 4. One of them.

 

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I've always used 1 or 2, as some of my instructors live in PA.  Once I used the FBI course of fire.  They are all similar.  It is better to saturate them with your skill level than to use the minimum and have to convince them that it is acceptable.

 

Hopefully, all of the available official resources make it clear to PD's and judges what is acceptable.  Right now it is very subjective.

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23 minutes ago, samiam said:

I have no municipal PD, so I will be dealing with NJSP. The good news about that is that one step of the process and potential snags at that level are bypassed. The bad news is that NJSP will no doubt be doing exactly whatever His Majesty (in his own mind) Murphy I tells it to do through Plavin (or whoever his AG is at the time) incuding any tactics intended to delay and/or obstruct the process.

On Sunday, I called the NJSP field office responsible for my area (Woodbine) to request an identification number to be associated with fingerprints to be done by Sagem/Morpho/Morphotrak (it was posted by someone who claimed to be familiar with the current SP 640 process in the Bruen/SCOTUS thread on this subject that a fresh set of prints would be required along with the SP 640, and that the identification number, nominally issued by the local PD, would be required for the NJSP investigation to correlate those prints with the application). The desk sargent told me that he thought that the prints that I filed with the application for my 8 yo FPID card would be sufficient, and that he was not able to issue me an identification number for new prints for SP 640. AFAIK, he didn't lie to me about anything, but he clearly had no interest in helping me expedite the process, and he encouraged me to wait on my application until new requirements were published (he also told me there had already been extensive discussion within NJSP CoC about this, so I very much doubt he was improvising any of his answers). Now, in a state where 2A rights are respected and honored to any degree, that might seem to be good advice. In NJ, my best guess is that a hiatus is sought so that Murphy & co can concoct more and better ways to keep from issuing perrmits. When I have a few hours available to wait around on hold and get hung up on a couple of times, I'll try calling NJSP Frearms Division to ask for a fingerprint identification number to use with my SP 640, but I don't really expect any satisfaction there, either (just an enhanced sense of frustration).

This is great info. Can you post this into in the "Pinned..." of Current NJ Laws discussion ?

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11 hours ago, 68chris said:

In the legal document world, commas, colons, semicolons the word “and”  and the word “or” have great meaning.
Note the word “or” at the end of paragraph b3. If we have an English major, or attorney on the forums maybe they can confirm my interpretation. The word “or” implies that you can submit 1, 2, 3, or 4 as evidence of familiarity. The semi colons after 1 and 2 merely state that there is more to follow. The “or” appears only after 3 because it is second to last.

 

 

 

13:54-2.4 Application for a permit to carry a handgun
(a) Every person applying for a permit to carry a handgun shall furnish such information and particulars as set forth in the application form designated SP 642. The application shall be signed by the applicant under oath and shall be endorsed by three reputable persons who have known the applicant for at least three years preceding the date of application, and who shall also certify thereon that the applicant is a person of good moral character and behavior. Applications can be obtained at police departments and State Police stations.
(b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns may be evidenced by:
1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;
2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor;
3. Completion of a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
4. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.
(c) Where available, the information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s). In the absence of, or in addition to (b)1 through 4 above, the applicant shall provide any other available and accurate information which may evidence his or her proficiency in the safe handling and use of firearms, including most recent handgun qualification scores and whether he or she utilized the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry, courses attended in the safe handling and use of firearms, and extent of knowledge, however gained, of this State's laws pertaining to the use of force in the defense of person and property.
(d) Each application form shall also be accompanied by a written certification of need which shall be under oath and which:

I'm not an attorney, but I do play one on TV.  (Actually in contracts for the past 20+ years.)  You are correct and that's why I questioned it earlier in this thread.

@KurtC is probably the subject expert here, but again, I refer to @gunforhire's last episode because he and his guest have been at the front of the fight and know the details and the realistic path forward.

Yes, I did get excited and filled out the form and started to assemble the backup materials, but as I was doing that, I was listening to the podcast and realized that the path forward was unclear and would change before my application would be submitted.  Yes, I do want to legally carry, as I grew up in PA and was allowed to carry there before I moved here to the PRNJ, but realistically, we all know that the government will throw roadblocks in front of us in some way, shape or form, including holding applications until the administrative code is changed, FARS gets modified, etc.

Patience, gents.  We've gotten this far and can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

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9 minutes ago, CMJeepster said:

I'm not an attorney, but I do play one on TV.  (Actually in contracts for the past 20+ years.)  You are correct and that's why I questioned it earlier in this thread.

@KurtC is probably the subject expert here, but again, I refer to @gunforhire's last episode because he and his guest have been at the front of the fight and know the details and the realistic path forward.

Yes, I did get excited and filled out the form and started to assemble the backup materials, but as I was doing that, I was listening to the podcast and realized that the path forward was unclear and would change before my application would be submitted.  Yes, I do want to legally carry, as I grew up in PA and was allowed to carry there before I moved here to the PRNJ, but realistically, we all know that the government will throw roadblocks in front of us in some way, shape or form, including holding applications until the administrative code is changed, FARS gets modified, etc.

Patience, gents.  We've gotten this far and can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

My plan is to wait too. I leave for Florida in November and won't be back until March.  I'll still watch this forum and the State Police page to see what required. When we have something concrete than I plan to move forward. 

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2 minutes ago, EX Carnival man said:

My plan is to wait too. I leave for Florida in November and won't be back until March.  I'll still watch this forum and the State Police page to see what required. When we have something concrete than I plan to move forward. 

On top of that, I am pretty sure the Judges will want to remove themselves from the approval process altogether (a combo of: they are redundant now, there is a shortage of judges, volume of permits coming in plus the 2 year backlog of evictions they need to address first because of corona) and that would change things as well.

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1 minute ago, CMJeepster said:

 

@KurtC is probably the subject expert here, but again, I refer to @gunforhire's last episode because he and his guest have been at the front of the fight and know the details and the realistic path forward.

 

I can only speak for the past 35 years.  We'll need a crystal ball to see what the future holds.

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1 minute ago, NJRulz said:

On top of that, I am pretty sure the Judges will want to remove themselves from the approval process altogether (a combo of: they are redundant now, there is a shortage of judges, volume of permits coming in plus the 2 year backlog of evictions they need to address first because of corona) and that would change things as well.

In Florida we now have over 2 million licenses issued.  NJ like Florida will be seeing people applying  for non residents permits too. The number here will be high, maybe not Florida high but high enough to tie up the courts. Someone else posted pages back Judges will still have a role to play in this with appeals.  It would be great to see a million permits here.  

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9 minutes ago, KurtC said:

I can only speak for the past 35 years.  We'll need a crystal ball to see what the future holds.

Agreed and that's why we all need to keep our ears to the ground.  I was going to get a download from the only civilian that I know has a current permit, but after listening to the podcast, it's not worth it because that's not what's in front of us, only behind us.  The good thing is that he's one of my go-to references and will be when I apply.

2 minutes ago, EX Carnival man said:

NJ like Florida will be seeing people applying  for non residents permits too.

If "they" allow that, which I predict "they" won't.

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NJ has always allowed non residents to get an FID and Permit to Carry.  They just need to follow the same procedures as residents.  Obviously, they will need to get the FID before they can apply for a Permit to Carry, just like us.

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2 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

Looking at the HQC on Gun For Hire, it looks pretty simple...one of the ones referenced previously included shooting from a barrier, etc. Is GFH oversimplifying it or is the HQC simply a test of marksmanship at various ranges? 

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Everyone seems to worry about qualifying. Not sure what the 'new' standard if any will be. But in the 10 plus years of having my jersey """carry""" 'restricted' permit. They wanted my shooting scores ONLY. From a certified instructor who is a cop in PA. I have always scored perfect. It goes out to 25yds in my qual and is relatively easy. That is the LAST thing I'd worry about. I would worry about Murph's twisted logic and how he is scheming to go against the Text, Color, Spirit of the SCOTUS ruling and he will sneak in many 'poison pills' into the CCW processes. He has said so and WILL DO SO. Training this that is the Funnest and last thing I would worry about. Like I said. This ruling get rid of intermediate scrutiny, 2 tier and 'interest balancing'. Plan to CARPET BOMB JERSEY WITH MANY MANY LAWSUITS AS MUCH AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE FOREVER AND A DAY.

Thank You ALL,

-quikz

 

 

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