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Supreme Court Takes First 2A Case in a Decade

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Had breakfast this morning with a friend from Delaware. As part of their CCW process, he was required to run week long post in the Notice section of a local newspaper stating that he was applying for a Permit to Carry a Handgun and that anyone with a reason to object should contact the PD number provided. 

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1 minute ago, KurtC said:

Had breakfast this morning with a friend from Delaware. As part of their CCW process, he was required to run week long post in the Notice section of a local newspaper stating that he was applying for a Permit to Carry a Handgun and that anyone with a reason to object should contact the PD number provided. 

Since that constitutes compelled speech, it might be consistent with the idea that bearing arms is a government-granted privilege, but not at all with it as a fundamental constitutional right. Looks like NJ isn't the only state where politicians need their feet held to the proverbial fire. 

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5 minutes ago, marlintag said:

I would not submit without a training cert. I got references done today. The only thing left for me to do is the pictures and notary. I had my last P2P in August so i shouldn't need fingerprints. The only issue left for me is the training... I have a number of pistol training certs that are recent, but without clarification i cannot move forward. Will NJ simply accept my various pistol certs? like you said, we can only hope that is sufficient. I suspect we will all have to go through quals like Anthony and others here mentioned.

For my latest renewal, I told the PD that my prints had just been run thru FARS for a Permit to Purchase.   They checked with the County and were told that a fresh set of prints had to be run through Morpho specifically for Permit to Carry. 

I got the new number from my PD and executed the Morpho trip. When the PD got the results about 2 weeks later they forwarded them to the County and the application was processed.

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4 minutes ago, samiam said:

Since that constitutes compelled speech, it might be consistent with the idea that bearing arms is a government-granted privilege, but not at all with it as a fundamental constitutional right. Looks like NJ isn't the only state where politicians need their feet held to the proverbial fire. 

Just think of it as a lazy background check. Objections instead of references. 

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7 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

...I dont see reciprocity happening, nj will claim other licensing or non licensing doesn't meet NJ standards. Unfortunately, SCOTUS left that door wide open. 

Maybe after all of the unreasoanble roadblocks NJ will erect are found to be unconstitutional and those who enacted them (hopefully) punished in some form, some reciprocity could happen. Definitely not something to hold one's breath for... 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, KurtC said:

Just think of it as a lazy background check. Objections instead of references. 

In which case it should be incumbent on the county or state to place and pay for the ad. Which might be subject to some interesting privacy regulations.

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After 35 years of going thru this process, which is longer than most folks at the PD and County have been alive, this is the best advice I can give everyone...

 

Follow the established procedures perfectly.  Don't try shortcuts or substitutions.

Don't tell anyone involved in the process how things ought to be or how to do their jobs.

Be polite at all times.  If you have to appear in person, be the quiet professional, not the clown demanding his rights.

Be patient.  Don't make weekly inquiries as to how your application is coming along.

 

They may not be able to deny your application based on justifiable need, but they can very easily slow walk it thru, reject it for mistakes or omissions, or lose it altogether.  If there's one thing you learn in the Army, it's not to piss off the folks that do your paperwork or cook your food. 

 

Once the PD's get swamped with applications, they will be the ones to demand change.

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1 hour ago, Oakridgefirearms said:

And for you computer programmers thinking it would be simple to add this into FARS, this is the state we're talking about - nothing is quick or simple with them.

You got that right. They're still looking for COBOL programmers to fix up their state systems.

Anyone want to come out of retirement and help out Bucky?

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7 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

You got that right. They're still looking for COBOL programmers to fix up their state systems.

Anyone want to come out of retirement and help out Bucky?

For a small fee of 250+ an hour, sign me up. I will do pascal, fortran, basic, assembler and anything else they might need .. LOL

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2 hours ago, samiam said:

I also just ordered a rubber Hogue monogrip for the SP101. I've been meaning to do that for a while, anyway. The walnut grips look nice and fit my hands OK, but I suspect I'd be pretty well crippled up after firing 400 rounds in two days using them...

Rubber grips absorb recoil, but generally suck for concealed carry or qualification.  Use the walnut grips for actual carry, as the rubber ones will snag on your clothing.  During qualification, you tend to not always grip the sidearm perfectly.  Wood or plastic make it much easier to adjust your grip better before actually pulling the trigger, especially if it is 95 degrees and your hands are sweaty.  

 

I qualified with the SP-101 when they first came out.  Great revolver.  When the 9mm version came out, I switched to one of them.  Performing reloads and keeping the revolver fully charged during quals is much easier with moon clips than speedloaders or speed strips.  It has a short sight radius, so make sure you can hit a Q target at 25 yards.  You will probably get tired of reloading long before the recoil bothers you.

 

For all handguns...make sure you find out your POA for a center mass POI at 25 yds.  Handguns all have different trajectories, based on barrel length, recoil and velocity.  This is especially true for .45's.  You may have to aim high or low on the Q target at 25 yds to keep your hits inside the coke bottle.  

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2 hours ago, Oakridgefirearms said:

And for you computer programmers thinking it would be simple to add this into FARS, this is the state we're talking about - nothing is quick or simple with them.

It’s probably written in COBOL with a text-file backend. 

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15 hours ago, KurtC said:

After 35 years of going thru this process, which is longer than most folks at the PD and County have been alive, this is the best advice I can give everyone...

 

Follow the established procedures perfectly.  Don't try shortcuts or substitutions.

Don't tell anyone involved in the process how things ought to be or how to do their jobs.

Be polite at all times.  If you have to appear in person, be the quiet professional, not the clown demanding his rights.

Be patient.  Don't make weekly inquiries as to how your application is coming along.

 

They may not be able to deny your application based on justifiable need, but they can very easily slow walk it thru, reject it for mistakes or omissions, or lose it altogether.  If there's one thing you learn in the Army, it's not to piss off the folks that do your paperwork or cook your food. 

 

Once the PD's get swamped with applications, they will be the ones to demand change.

Just be the good little subject, eh :>? Actually I understand your point, and I can and will play game that to the hilt. But just because I'm acting all good natured and compliant, doesn't mean that I think well of whichever clown is currently front and center trying to obstruct the exercise of my natural and constiutional right to self-defense.

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1 hour ago, KurtC said:

Rubber grips absorb recoil, but generally suck for concealed carry or qualification.  Use the walnut grips for actual carry, as the rubber ones will snag on your clothing.  During qualification, you tend to not always grip the sidearm perfectly.  Wood or plastic make it much easier to adjust your grip better before actually pulling the trigger, especially if it is 95 degrees and your hands are sweaty.  

 

I qualified with the SP-101 when they first came out.  Great revolver.  When the 9mm version came out, I switched to one of them.  Performing reloads and keeping the revolver fully charged during quals is much easier with moon clips than speedloaders or speed strips.  It has a short sight radius, so make sure you can hit a Q target at 25 yards.  You will probably get tired of reloading long before the recoil bothers you.

 

For all handguns...make sure you find out your POA for a center mass POI at 25 yds.  Handguns all have different trajectories, based on barrel length, recoil and velocity.  This is especially true for .45's.  You may have to aim high or low on the Q target at 25 yds to keep your hits inside the coke bottle.  

I'll keep that in mind, thanks. I plan to do considerable practice before the class, so I should have the opportunity to compare grips. The Hogues cost me all of $28, so no big deal if they don't get used, at least I have an option. Regarding sight radius, mine has the 4.2" barrel, so sightiing is easier than with the shorter examples. My wife has the 2.25 barrel version of the same gun, and I do have a little difficulty when I switch to that gun. Maybe I should tell them I plan to carry my 6.5" New Model Blackhawk concealed :-) Of course, between cocking and reloading, I might need a week to get off 400 rounds...

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20 minutes ago, Fred2 said:

Given that most self defense shootings would be at close range, what is the point of shooting at 25 yards?

25 yards is not that far. Grocery stores, parking lots, shopping malls, even some class rooms and hallways. 

The HQC establishes that one is not just safe with firearms, but actually proficient under stress.   It also builds confidence.  

Once you've shot it a couple of times, you'll appreciate it more.  There are more challenging aspects of the HQC than the 25 yd phase.

Example:  You are in a supermarket pushing a cart down the aisle.   Bad guy appears at end of the aisle with an AR15.  You are too old, fat and slow to run, so you kneel down, rest your hand on the cart and take a couple of shots to solve the problem and save your life, just like you practiced on the HQC.

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6 minutes ago, KurtC said:

25 yards is not that far. Grocery stores, parking lots, shopping malls, even some class rooms and hallways. 

The HQC establishes that one is not just safe with firearms, but actually proficient under stress.   It also builds confidence.  

Once you've shot it a couple of times, you'll appreciate it more.  There are more challenging aspects of the HQC than the 25 yd phase.

If your choice for ccw is a mouse gun like this, I can see 25 yds being an issue.

ARMSLIST - For Sale: Like New SEECAMP 380

Can you qualify with a real gun, and then carry a small one?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Fred2 said:

If your choice for ccw is a mouse gun like this, I can see 25 yds being an issue.

ARMSLIST - For Sale: Like New SEECAMP 380

Can you qualify with a real gun, and then carry a small one?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You need to qualify with the sidearm that you will carry.  Not just to appease the powers that be, but to protect yourself in court in case you are involved in an "event."  You will need proof that you are proficient with the sidearm you were carrying and did not act recklessly. 

Just out of interest, I once shot the HQC with an AMT Back-Up in. 45acp.  If you are unsure what a rude little POS that is, Google it.   It has a trench instead of sights.  My score was closer to the 80% mark than the 100.

 

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5 hours ago, samiam said:

I just signed up at Full Metal Jacket in Seaville for the NRA Basic CCW course on July 30 - 31. The range told me it will require 350 - 400 rounds of ammo. That's a bit more than I keep in my gun safe so I need to get busy ordering. I also just ordered a rubber Hogue monogrip for the SP101. I've been meaning to do that for a while, anyway. The walnut grips look nice and fit my hands OK, but I suspect I'd be pretty well crippled up after firing 400 rounds in two days using them... I'm torn about whether to proceed with submitting my SP 640 before completing the course. The form and the instructions don't mention the need to submit proof of training/proficiency with the form, and under most circumstances it would be a reasonable presumption that it would be requested form me when they get around to processing the form, but this is NJ, which, when it comes to government, is a largely reason-free zone.

Hey all,  newbee here.  Been shooting forever but not active on the site.  Anyway, I though you might want to see the NRA CCW course of fire.  It appears super easy.  If NJ accepts the NRA CCW course, it will be a piece of  cake to pass.  You need 80% to pass and three attempts.  

https://livefireinstruction.com/nra-defensive-pistol-course/

1099371042_NRACCWCourseofFire.jpg.4961ff74f8315f277f196ca6875816e6.jpg

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18 minutes ago, Carolina Native said:

Hey all,  newbee here.  Been shooting forever but not active on the site.  Anyway, I though you might want to see the NRA CCW course of fire.  It appears super easy.  If NJ accepts the NRA CCW course, it will be a piece of  cake to pass.  You need 80% to pass and three attempts.  

https://livefireinstruction.com/nra-defensive-pistol-course/

1099371042_NRACCWCourseofFire.jpg.4961ff74f8315f277f196ca6875816e6.jpg

It doesn't currently meet the requirements.  The New Jersey HQC requires a bit more proficiency.  You get two attempts to achieve 80% during the actual qual, but the training course will most likely walk you through it several times until they are sure you will pass.  That is what you are paying them for. 

 

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5 minutes ago, KurtC said:

It doesn't currently meet the requirements.  The New Jersey HQC requires a bit more proficiency.  You get two attempts to achieve 80% during the actual qual, but the training course will most likely walk you through it several times until they are sure you will pass.  That is what you are paying them for. 

 

Does the NJ qual require us to shoot a phase in the dark? Do we need to buy pistol lights for our qual gun?

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5 minutes ago, marlintag said:

Does the NJ qual require us to shoot a phase in the dark? Do we need to buy pistol lights for our qual gun?

There is a night qualification phase.  It is up to your instructor if he wants to include it.  You do not  need a handgun mounted light.  If you carry a sidearm for self defense, you should also carry a small tactical light. You will be taught how to use it efficiently. 

I posted a link to actual course of fire earlier in this thread or the other one. I'll repost it later tonight. 

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10 minutes ago, KurtC said:

It doesn't currently meet the requirements.  The New Jersey HQC requires a bit more proficiency.  You get two attempts to achieve 80% during the actual qual, but the training course will most likely walk you through it several times until they are sure you will pass.  That is what you are paying them for. 

 

I'm not a policeman so the HQC doesn't necessarily apply to me.  Nothing is clarified about what's acceptable.  Full Metal Jacket is holding it out as meeting the requirement.  Neither the law or application currently state what's acceptible.  You might well be correct.  So might Full Metal Jacket.  Clearly that's up in the air right now.   

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I would make sure your Police Chief and Superior Court judge will accept it before you spend your time and money.  We know that they will accept the HQC.

Keep in mind that there is nothing in the HQC that pertains to police. It is a defensive handgun course.   It has been a requirement for Armored Car personnel for decades and they are carrying to protect themselves, not the money. 

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Easy boys and girls, let's take a breath instead of speculating, the dust will settle soon enough. Get what you can together and be patient. Courses will surely be available everywhere, after all they won't be free and they will be happy to tell you where to spend your money.

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12 hours ago, samiam said:

Not trying to overthink or insult anyone. I just think it will be helpful to all of us to have as clear an idea as possible goiing into the application process of what is and isn't required. When they get totally swamped with apps, most likely they are going to be looking for quick and easy excuses to reject back to the applicant. I can't even imagine how they plan to contact 3 references for each of 200k apps. I'd bet quite a sum that NJSP Firearms Div doesn't have anywhere near enough staff to make 600,000 phone calls and record the results of each call. That's nearly 2,400 calls per working day in a year, even under the impossible assumption that each call immediately connects to the relevant party. My scientific wild-ass guess calculation suggests that effort alone would require on the order of 100 employees. (3 competed calls/hour; 40 hour week; 252 work day year).

I think the estimated 200k is for applications to the state police, from out of staters, etc. I think with local PDs, the amount of applications could be near one million. Look at the data from other states.  

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Unlike the FARS FID/P2P process for checking references by email.  The references on my carry applications have never been contacted, to the best of my knowledge. That's the purpose of having them sign in ink.  It's pretty much up to the Detective doing your background check to determine if he feels it is necessary to contact them.

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Regarding Murphy's absurd attempt to make all private property off-limits by default (which would 100% be overturned under Bruen): I think (hope) he may have a difficult time getting that through the legislature. Check out these two Politico articles, which specifically mention new Senate Majority Leader Scutari's reluctance to move on gun legislation. The Dems are very concerned about losing control of the NJ legislature in the 2023 elections. Perhaps we should organize grassroots lobbying.

Phil Murphy's first 2024 hurdle: New Jersey Democrats
As Gov. Phil Murphy tries to burnish his image as someone who's putting progressive policies to work, he faces a major obstacle: A skittish Legislature led by members of his own party. 

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/25/phil-murphys-new-jersey-democrats-00041676

Scutari: Democrats strayed too far left in 2021
Scutari, though a North Jersey Democrat, has developed alliances with members of his party from South Jersey.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/19/scutari-democrats-too-far-left-2021-00026236

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