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Jfoster99

Rifle Possession with NJ FID

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If has always been my understand that if you have a NJ FID card you can transport an unloaded /Secured Rifle in you vehicle anyplace you want to go without any restrictions and technically keep it in you vehicles at all time..

I was transferring my AR-15 today at the Local FFL to a friend and explaining to him he did not need to worry about only going to and from the Range, Gun Store, Target Practice, etc since he had an NJ FID.

Before I finished the FFL employee corrected me, and when I advised I believed he was mistaken all 4 of his helpers backed him up..

I looked it up again tonight and  NJS 2C 39-5 supports what I believe to be true and 2C 39-6 Lists the exemptions to include people going to the range, gun store, etc..

Am I  not understanding  what I am reading correctly?  I cant imagine 5 FFL employees would be wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I’ve posted this before, but it is a good reminder:

GUN STORE EMPLOYEES ARE NOT PAID OR TRAINED TO GIVE YOU LEGAL ADVICE!!

I repeat -

GUN STORE EMPLOYEES ARE NOT PAID OR TRAINED TO GIVE YOU LEGAL ADVICE!!

Do not rely on gun store employees to keep you out of jail, or to interpret laws for you. They are there to take your money and walk you through some paperwork. Heed their advice at your own risk.

They are paid to sell guns and keep the shop out of trouble - NOT YOU. They are not required to have any training or certification in NJ or Federal laws past what is required to take your money, get you through NICS, and get you out the door.

There are some good ones that are knowledgeable. It is up to you to vet them, and decide if they are trustworthy.

Take legal advice from competent and reputable lawyers*. Preferably one well versed in NJ gun laws.

* Yes, that includes taking advice from well meaning members on online Gun Forums as well. Yes, that includes what I wrote above. I am not a lawyer. Accept what I said above at your own risk. 

If you don’t know, research what you learned and vet what you hear/read here and elsewhere (which sounds exactly like what you are doing. Kudos!)

That being said, Krdshark is correct. You are right. They are wrong.

(Except for any restrictions on firearms on certain properties - for example a military base)

 

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6 minutes ago, Golf battery said:

And also technically you dont need your fpid on your person.  If I remember correctly it says you must of first obtained a fpid   Says nothing about having it on your person 

The corollary to that is that the statutes also say that if you are relying on the existence of a permit to make what you're doing legal, the cops must assume that the permit does not exist until you prove that it does. Therefore, for expediency it is advisable to have it on you when you have a long gun in your possession.

 

Quote

2C:39-2.  Presumptions

b.  Licenses and permits.    When the legality of a person's conduct under  this chapter depends on his possession of a license or permit or on his having  registered with or given notice to a particular person or agency, it shall be  presumed that he does not possess such a license or permit or has not  registered or given the required notice, until he establishes the contrary.

 

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9 hours ago, High Exposure said:

GUN STORE EMPLOYEES ARE NOT PAID OR TRAINED TO GIVE YOU LEGAL ADVICE!!

I have never asked a gas station attendant about traffic laws.

23 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

the cops must assume that the permit does not exist until you prove that it does.

I would expect that, since the police ISSUE the FID card, they can easily verify its existence with the nice laptop in their cruzier.

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10 minutes ago, EdF said:

I would expect that, since the police ISSUE the FID card, they can easily verify its existence with the nice laptop in their cruzier.

I don't think that was a thing when they wrote that statute in 1979.

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1 hour ago, EdF said:

I would expect that, since the police ISSUE the FID card, they can easily verify its existence with the nice laptop in their cruzier.

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

I don't think that was a thing when they wrote that statute in 1979.

It’s not a thing now.

That info comes to HQ from the state on a secure connection. You can’t get that info in a patrol car via MDT lookup.

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42 minutes ago, ESB said:

Are you sure you can keep an unloaded secured rifle in your vehicle at all times with a FID card?  

Notwithstanding the list of "sensitive" locations where possession is prohibited (e.g. school, courthouse, federal building, etc.), what makes you think you cannot be in possession of an unloaded rifle having obtained an FPIC?

37 minutes ago, RUTGERS95 said:

if you move to this state with rifles and do not obtain a FID I believe you are still ok

If you do not have an FPIC you have to rely on the exceptions and exemptions. You may own a rifle and possess it an an exempt location, but you can't generally possess it as you travel around the State.

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Every law abiding firearms owner who lives in, or travels into the Glorious Peoples Republik of New Jerseystan should take the time to read and learn the contents of 2C:39 and 2C:58, which are the statutes dealing with the subject of firearms. They can be found at http://njleg.state.nj.us

Granted, there are some details that are not elucidated in the statutes, such as transportation of hollow points between residences when moving.  I'm not sure they are even covered in the latest edition of Evan Nappen's book on NJ Gun Laws, which is an ok second choice of places to learn what the law says what you cannot do here.

But learn the gun laws for yourself.

Knowledge is power.

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8 minutes ago, njJoniGuy said:

Every law abiding firearms owner who lives in, or travels into the Glorious Peoples Republik of New Jerseystan should take the time to read and learn the contents of 2C:39 and 2C:58, which are the statutes dealing with the subject of firearms. They can be found at http://njleg.state.nj.us

Granted, there are some details that are not elucidated in the statutes, such as transportation of hollow points between residences when moving.  I'm not sure they are even covered in the latest edition of Evan Nappen's book on NJ Gun Laws, which is an ok second choice of places to learn what the law says what you cannot do here.

But learn the gun laws for yourself.

Knowledge is power.

This all day long and twice on Sunday!

ESB, you will not get a complete understanding of what the laws are and are not through hearsay. There are more wildly incorrect rumors than there is truth out there.

The three worse places you can ask about firearms law are, in no particular order:

  1. The gun store
  2. The internet (particularly a couple of really, really bad facebook groups)
  3. Your buddy who is a cop

High Exposure already spelled that out several posts ago. njJoniGuy has said it too. You are responsible for your actions. If you get jammed up for breaking one or more of NJ's ridiculously complex gun laws you can't use the defense that you were told by one of the entities listed above. You're the one that will be paying the lawyers' bills and you'll be the one looking at jail time.

Spend the time and do your own reading. Understand the statutes and then read and learn the administrative code too - that describes the rules under which the statutes are enforced. You can find the source material here:

Statutes

Administrative Code

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The statutes for transporting firearms do not specify handguns, but seem to apply to all firearms?  

2C:39-6

g.   Any weapon being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

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28 minutes ago, ESB said:

The statutes for transporting firearms do not specify handguns, but seem to apply to all firearms?  

2C:39-6

g.   Any weapon being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

That paragraph describes the method of securing a firearm when being transported under a number of clauses in that section. You have to read the whole thing.

It begins with:

Quote
2C:39-6  Exemptions.
   2C:39-6. a. Provided a person complies with the requirements of subsection j. of this section, N.J.S.2C:39-5 does not apply to:

So look back to see what 2C:39-5 says about handguns and rifles/shotguns:

Quote
2C:39-5  Unlawful possession of weapons.
 
   2C:39-5.  Unlawful possession of weapons. a. Machine guns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession a machine gun or any instrument or device adaptable for use as a machine gun, without being licensed to do so as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-5, is guilty of a crime of the second degree.

   b.   Handguns.  (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the second degree. (2) If the handgun is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person it is a crime of the third degree.

   c.   Rifles and shotguns.  (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

   (2)   Unless otherwise permitted by law, any person who knowingly has in his possession any loaded rifle or shotgun is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

Note the 2 underlined parts.

If you have a permit to carry a handgun, possession of a handgun is not a crime. Therefore, you cannot be exempted, because there is no offence to be exempted from. However, almost nobody ever gets a permit to carry a handgun so almost all of us have to work under the exemptions for handguns.

If you have an FPIC, possession of a rifle or shotgun is not a crime. Therefore, you cannot be exempted, because there is no offence to be exempted from.

Notice that there is no mention of a loaded handgun, therefore all handguns are treated the same, loaded or not which is how carry permit holders can carry loaded handguns - it is not until you are forced to transport under the exemptions that being unloaded is required for handguns. However, possession of loaded rifles or shotguns is specifically called out as an offence.

The thing you may realize from this is that if you have an FPIC, you do not have to adhere to 2C:39-6.g and can have the unloaded rifle or shotgun uncased. That is not to say you wouldn't potentially get jammed up under another charge, such as causing a public alarm or disturbance if you were walking down Main St with it on a sling, but you're not committing a firearms offence per se.

Now go back and read what HE and I have said before - do not take my word for any of this. I am not a lawyer and this advice is worth no more than what you paid me for it. Read the whole of 2C:39 and 2C:58 and the relevant parts of the Admin Code, and then decide for yourself whether you believe me or need to ask someone who is actually qualified to explain this.

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1 hour ago, CMJeepster said:

Pork roll...

That comment belongs in the TX synagogue thread, where neither Taylor Ham nor Pork Roll are allowed, even though it is a Reform Congregation.

And the Orthodox Jews will dispatch your soul (and your sandwich) to Hell for bringing either into the Temple.

:rabbi:

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Thanks Mr. Stu.  That makes sense.  You mentioned that you can carry an unloaded rifle or shotgun uncased.  Can you also transport an unloaded rifle or shotgun uncased in a vehicle not in reach of the occupants?  

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7 minutes ago, ESB said:

Thanks Mr. Stu.  That makes sense.  You mentioned that you can carry an unloaded rifle or shotgun uncased.  Can you also transport an unloaded rifle or shotgun uncased in a vehicle not in reach of the occupants?  

Have you read the statutes? You need to take the time to inform yourself. As a hint, look at 2C:39-2.

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I read both  2C:39 and  2C:58 in their entirety.  However I never would have come up with the conclusion you did without explanation.  The concern I have is that it does state that transporting firearms must follow the rules in subsection g, which includes language saying that the transport can only be between home, office, or range with no unnecessary deviations.  

 

e.   Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about the person's place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by the person, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to the person's residence or place of business, between the person's dwelling and place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between the person's dwelling or place of business and place where the firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair.  For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

 

(b)   Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

 

I'm sorry for asking so many questions.   It may seem obvious to you, but this is still pretty foreign to me, but I want to learn as much as I can.  Thanks again!  

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16 hours ago, ESB said:

I thought in NJ you can only travel with a firearm to/from the range/hunting spot and your house.  Or is that handguns only and doesn't apply to long guns? 

Funny you summarized Firearms.. The FFL employees where saying the law references Firearms ( which clearly  is not the case) However when I initially just tried to Google more information it seem most websites provided general information using the term firearms and summarized the the exceptions…. 
 

This  why they believe what they are saying to be true.  

People absolutely need to read the code as written.  

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12 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

 

The thing you may realize from this is that if you have an FPIC, you do not have to adhere to 2C:39-6.g and can have the unloaded rifle or shotgun uncased. That is not to say you wouldn't potentially get jammed up under another charge, such as causing a public alarm or disturbance if you were walking down Main St with it on a sling, but you're not committing a firearms offence per se.

 


This is new I for for Me….  So according to your understanding I could fold my unloaded 9mm Keltec Sub 2000 and wear it on my back under a jacket while walking down Main Street.. Now when I get back into the car to drive home can it stay on my back or does it need to get locked in the trunk to transport.

 

 

 

65311BEB-0350-4513-9556-7463163624DC.jpeg

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This is new I for for Me….  So according to your understanding I could fold my unloaded 9mm Keltec Sub 2000 and wear it on my back under a jacket while walking down Main Street.. Now when I get back into the car to drive home can it stay on my back or does it need to get locked in the trunk to transport.

IF you have an FID card, you can keep it on your back or anywhere. You are allowed to possess it, period. The thing about transporting and how you transport it in a locked case, that's if you're transporting to a range and you DON'T have an FID card (according to my understanding).

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