Krdshrk 3,872 Posted February 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, Porthole said: I can do that as well. Try it with your arm through brace as designed to use one handed. Doable yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted February 25, 2022 Everyone is getting wrapped around the axle on this unnecessarily. Along with the overall length and VFG requirements, to be classified as an other firearm it simply can’t have a stock. Nowhere does it say that it has to have a brace. @PK90, @Krdshrk, @Mr.Stu, @JackDaWackare right and giving good advice. Don’t be ruled by fear. If the time comes, make your decisions based on knowledge. 2 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 240 Posted February 25, 2022 Exactly. If it becomes an issue, I plan on keeping the Other and removing the brace. I'd like to know what options there are to replace the stock in that event. That was the whole point of this thread. The only item posted was this: https://blackcollararms.com/product/aps/ Any other items? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 240 Posted February 26, 2022 It looks like the SB MIni Hex is still a brace and would probably suffer the same fate as the SB3. Basically looking for non-brace attachments for the end of the buffer tube. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted February 26, 2022 8 minutes ago, ESB said: It looks like the SB MIni Hex is still a brace and would probably suffer the same fate as the SB3. Basically looking for non-brace attachments for the end of the buffer tube. What is it that you want this device to do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted February 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said: What is it that you want this device to do? 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted February 26, 2022 23 hours ago, ESB said: Exactly. If it becomes an issue, I plan on keeping the Other and removing the brace. I'd like to know what options there are to replace the stock in that event. That was the whole point of this thread. The only item posted was this: https://blackcollararms.com/product/aps/ Any other items? https://gearheadworks.com/tailhook/ ATF approved. Brace swings open to brace the firearm against your arm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted February 27, 2022 10 hours ago, Porthole said: It is a brace, but does not have 'features' of a rifle brace and it is non adjustable Did you read the links and follow the ATF's examples using the 4999 form? It's all about the points. An other is over 26" POINTS DO NOT APPLY. An other is NOT a PISTOL. It's NOT designed to be fired ONE HANDED. That just about makes everything the ATF has published as proposed rules changes completely moot to OTHERS. If that's not enough to convince you, nothing will. Most stabilizing braces are not specifically designed to make only pistols easier to fire, and thus are not designed specifically for one handed operation. The SBA3 for example was designed for ANY weapon with an milspec tube, where the individual doesn't want a stock, and wants an accessory that can offer stability. So the rules mention that over 26" with a brace is a no go for one handed operation... that leaves Others pretty much excluded from any rule changes. How often do you shoot a pistol one handed anyway? The ATF's entire proposed rule is an extremely weak one when considering statutory language with respect to others and pistols, as they argue when a brace can be beneficial or not has absolutely nothing to do with one handed operation of a weapon just because it's designed to be fired with one hand. They also are attempting to lump every brace created with this reasoning of one handed operation. It also applies a check box process of intent, when every lawyer on earth knows proving intent is difficult and creating a made up form is not proof of anything. Example: 1) adding a vfg is pretty obvious you intended to use it as a secondary grip location. 2) Adding a brace to literally anything only shows intent to increase the firearms stablity. If the atf wants to pen a letter making others with braces NFA regulated, I plan on replacing the A5 extension with a carbine and filing for an AOW. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted February 28, 2022 On 2/27/2022 at 3:44 PM, Porthole said: Maybe the thread title and subject should have been more to the point, 'the ATF's NPR regarding pistols that meet certain requirements and are equipped with a stabilizing brace'. I moved out of Jersey 2 years ago, and even though just a short move to the next state down, there is a world of difference. Perfectly legal here to have an AR platform in various calibers with 30 round (or larger) magazines filled with hollow points with a stabilizing brace, folding or non folding and to purchase as many as I want in a single day with nothing more than a drivers license and of course the background check. I can carry it in my car on the seat or dash with no CC, can even open carry if desired. And a CCDW only took about 4 weeks. Come August 2022 if everything becomes final, the SBA3 brace on a for example, an AR9 pistol, the SBA3 will need to be removed or reclassify the pistol. As mentioned above the SB mini brace will keep the pistol a pistol and not a SBR since it is not adjustable.. I thought the OP was direct in their question, and have framed my responses as such. I see no reason for the OP to even ask about Pistols, they're illegal in NJ prior to the ATFs proposed rule change 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted March 2, 2022 3 hours ago, Porthole said: I thought the OP's post was not direct with the way he phrased his question. The ATF is not proposing a ban. The proposal stems from the use of certain forms of stabilizing braces on firearms intended to be fired with one hand, such as AR type/style pistols. OP was asking how Others would be affected regarding the ban of braces(on certain weapons) Yea sure it could have been worded better but the information he was looking for was easy enough to answer. Except.... you started your opinions in this thread with applying the point system to an other regarding the VFG. AND the new rules mention two handed smooth bore weapons over 26"... such as the tac14 and shockwave, any brace would be a no go. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1LtCAP 4,259 Posted March 12, 2022 3 hours ago, Krdshrk said: stupid question? does this mean only the troy others are ok, or are other others ok too based on this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xtors 327 Posted March 12, 2022 Perhaps a dumb question but what would happen if an A4 is brought out of state? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,872 Posted March 12, 2022 13 hours ago, 1LtCAP said: stupid question? does this mean only the troy others are ok, or are other others ok too based on this? Waiting to see what their breakdown is but I believe it will cover all others... I may be optimistic 3 hours ago, Xtors said: Perhaps a dumb question but what would happen if an A4 is brought out of state? Nothing... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 240 Posted March 12, 2022 13 hours ago, 1LtCAP said: stupid question? does this mean only the troy others are ok, or are other others ok too based on this? I would assume this would apply to all manufactured Others not just the A4. In the NJSP letter stating the A4 is legal, it also mentions some other "Others." I would assume those would also be legal, since they are very similar. I would also hope that properly built home built Others would also be legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 22 hours ago, 1LtCAP said: stupid question? does this mean only the troy others are ok, or are other others ok too based on this? 13 hours ago, Xtors said: Perhaps a dumb question but what would happen if an A4 is brought out of state? An “Other Firearm” is based on a Federal definition describing a configuration of certain parts that meet a very specific set of criteria - for a “Short Barrel Firearm/SBF” - most notably, and as covered above ad nauseam: • A receiver that was never transferred as an “other” and not a rifle, pistol, machine gun, AOW, or SBR, and has never had a stock installed - Note: you can not convert an existing rifle to an SBF and the requirement is to not have a stock, NOT to install a brace. • A minimum length of 26” at its shortest possible length - that means bare receiver extension with brace removed, and, if so equipped, with any folding mechanism folded. • The presence of a forward vertical grip indicating the firearm was designed to be fired using two hands. Manufacturer/Brand does not matter as long as the firearm conforms to the above. An “Other Firearm” or “SBF” is NOT an SBR or AOW and does not require: • Federal registration and approval • Engraving of the lower • Permission to bring to another state • Tax Stamps, fees, or other paperwork Edited March 13, 2022 by High Exposure Cleaned up some language for clarity 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lawnmower2021 423 Posted March 13, 2022 FWIW I reached out to the manufacturer of my other (ACI) who echoes the sentiment that worst case, in the unlikely event this ever comes to light, you can just replace the brace with something compliant. So, yeah. The risk category here for others is mildly inconvenient. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shortfuse 39 Posted January 13, 2023 So the brace rules are here where does that leave us with our Others I have 4 and we can't take advantage of the free SBR Tax Stamp because SBRs are not legal i Jersey https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lawnmower2021 423 Posted January 13, 2023 I think people will need some time to digest and analyze the nearly 300 page document. Within a few weeks we should have more information with regards to "others" and what, if anything, we need to do to them. Prospect is bleak but not hopeless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted January 13, 2023 33 minutes ago, Shortfuse said: So the brace rules are here where does that leave us with our Others I have 4 and we can't take advantage of the free SBR Tax Stamp because SBRs are not legal i Jersey As has been stated many times through all this kerfuffle, Non-NFA Other Firearms are not effected by this at all. Look at the factoring worksheet here: https://www.atf.gov/file/154866/download Non-NFA Other Firearms must be at least 26 inches overall length. That means they fail at step 2 and are not under consideration with this rule change. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shortfuse 39 Posted January 13, 2023 https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/bracefinalruleguidance-non-commercial1-10/download https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/bracefinalruleguidance-commerciallypdf/download https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces Take a look at what they are considering SBRs 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DAHL 58 Posted January 13, 2023 If arm braces are banned and you remove them it turns your weapon into a pistol that would be illegal in NJ. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted January 13, 2023 1 minute ago, DAHL said: If arm braces are banned and you remove them it turns your weapon into a pistol that would be illegal in NJ. It is the VFG that differentiates a Non-NFA Other Firearm from a pistol. The brace has nothing to do with it. A pistol is designed to be fired in one hand. The VFG makes it plain that the Non-NFA Other Firearm is designed to be fired from both hands. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyB 4,289 Posted January 13, 2023 Removing the brace and swapping out the barrel seems to be the easiest way out for now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DAHL 58 Posted January 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said: It is the VFG that differentiates a Non-NFA Other Firearm from a pistol. The brace has nothing to do with it. A pistol is designed to be fired in one hand. The VFG makes it plain that the Non-NFA Other Firearm is designed to be fired from both hands. Numerous pistols have a front forearm. Trouble is that this pistol feature is illegal in NJ. Just take a look at the AR and AK pistols. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dajonga 396 Posted January 13, 2023 58 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said: IANAL, but in my reading of the worksheet, I see that......... Section 1 - Prerequisites 2. The weapon must have an overall length between 12 and 26 inches. "Weapon must meet both Prerequisites in order to proceed to Section II" My NJ legal Troy A4 "other" with a 10.5" bbl and a pinned flash suppressor is over 26" as measured from the end of the buffer tube. End of story.... correct? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites