If Braces are Banned

[ESB 244]

27 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Another commenter disagreed with the overall length requirement and incorrectly asserted that “if two AR-type pistols equipped with a stabilizing brace have the same weight, but one has an overall length of 24 [inches] and the other has an overall length of 27 [inches], the latter would automatically be a short-barreled rifle”

They said the latter would NOT automatically be a sbr. 

And it's a pistol to pistol comparison. 

 

The Department agrees with one commenter’s concerns regarding the outcome under the proposed Worksheet 4999 in a scenario in which two firearms with an attached “brace” device weigh the same and one is 25 inches in length and the other is 27 inches in length. The latter firearm under the worksheet would have been classified as a rifle when equipped with a “stabilizing brace,” not a short-barreled rifle as asserted by the commenter, on the basis that a firearm with an overall length exceeding 26 inches would be impractical and inaccurate to fire one handed due to the imbalance of the weapon, and thus would need to be shouldered

They are saying that if it is over 26" it will be considered a rifle and not an SBR.  I also think they were saying that the commenter was wrong in assuming that the 25" would not be a SBR while the 27" would.  Ie, the commenter was wrong in assuming the 25" would not be a SBR.   

Either way, think about.  If it is over 26" it will be considered a rifle?  So does that mean barrel length does not matter anymore?  You can have a 12.5" barrel rifle as long as it is over 26".  No forward grip needed?  If so then our Others are now subject to NJ rifle rules and cannot have an adjustable stock (or "brace") and cannot have a flash hider?  And if so under NJ constructive intent/possession law does just removing them still make the firearm illegal?  

 

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

Interesting: 

https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2023/01/14/the-congressional-review-act-gives-gop-house-opportunity-to-stop-atf-stabilizer-brace-rule/

[JackDaWack 2,895]

55 minutes ago, ESB said:

They are saying that if it is over 26" it will be considered a rifle and not an SBR.  I also think they were saying that the commenter was wrong in assuming that the 25" would not be a SBR while the 27" would.  Ie, the commenter was wrong in assuming the 25" would not be a SBR.   

Either way, think about.  If it is over 26" it will be considered a rifle?  So does that mean barrel length does not matter anymore?  You can have a 12.5" barrel rifle as long as it is over 26".  No forward grip needed?  If so then our Others are now subject to NJ rifle rules and cannot have an adjustable stock (or "brace") and cannot have a flash hider?  And if so under NJ constructive intent/possession law does just removing them still make the firearm illegal?  

 

NJ is completely seperate from this. You have to adhere to both this and NJ law treated completely separately. 

I used both responses as a means to clarify eachhother. If the 27" is a rifle in one, it's a rifle in the other since nothing in the rules differentiates one from the other past 26"

Federally speaking by some absurd reasoning a >26" pistol or other with a brace is just automatically a rifle 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Just to clarify at my point in understanding. 

There is NO form. The comments basically showed it was absurd so they instead wrote out very vague criteria. 

With no way to know how to use the criteria the only way to know for sure is to assume anything with a brace on it and a barrel under 16" is an SBR. 

The alternative is to ignore it because you can't figure it out, no one can, and that is also a favorable outcome. 

 

[ESB 244]

53 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Just to clarify at my point in understanding. 

There is NO form. The comments basically showed it was absurd so they instead wrote out very vague criteria. 

With no way to know how to use the criteria the only way to know for sure is to assume anything with a brace on it and a barrel under 16" is an SBR. 

The alternative is to ignore it because you can't figure it out, no one can, and that is also a favorable outcome. 

 

That's pretty much where I'm at as well.  I'm sure it will get challenged and be un-enforceable, but I don't want to be the test case.  I also want to leave my options open as much as possible.  

[oldguysrule649 397]

2 hours ago, Porthole said:

The ATF ........

Did anyone notice if you go to this page and hover over the pictured the note says:

"Three stabilizing races on machine guns laying on a table"

Spelling error is their error.

 

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces

Great catch!  Quite humorous that they did not catch this.  Sloppy as well.  If I long press on the image when viewing on my iPhone, it appears as well.

[silverado427 10,679]

[oldguysrule649 397]

Here is another informative video. 

He provides important clarifying information regarding buffer tubes and when (and when not) the surface area they provide would make it an SBR in the eyes of the ATF.

He also addresses the additional complications those of us in restrictive states face.

 

[oldguysrule649 397]

Another informative video.  One point I never new, that I want to bring to your attention, is that the prior approval of the ATF is required before moving an NFA item(such as an SBR) interstate.  I know its early in this game, but this could be relevant if any of our firearms are reclassified as SBRs and you wished to relocate it outside of NJ.  

 

 

[oldguysrule649 397]

Thought it was odd that I had not yet seen a video on the brace rule from MrGunsandGear.  He is an FFL and very knowledegable on NFA and ATF matters.  Turns out YouTube suspended him from posting to his main channel.  Here is the video he posted to Rumble and elsewhere.  (His websites are Mrgunsngear.com MRGNG.org in the event YouTube takes down the below video from his "B" channel.)

 

 

[Gidian 2]

Lots if interpretation here and thats all well and good.

I'd like to avoid selective enforcement where an overzealous prosecutor wants to earn their stripes so speak and make an example of someone who doesn't have the wealth to hire good lawyers.

It seems to me that Troy, MM etc.. with the NJSP letter created the pattern that many used to create their own "Others" that match those build specs. Thinking It would be very hard for any prosecutor to say Troy Good DIY Bad.

A few questions/thoughts:

1) So is is safe to say Troy, MM etc.. with be first to fight this and while that is going on, the DIY crowd should chill?

2) The NJSP letter leverages the ATF definition of rifle and pistol, if indeed the ATF classifies everything not a pistol as a SBR or rifle, wouldn't the NJSP letter be retracted and render all Troy, MM and DIY others illegal in NJ even if we applied for the free tax stamp?

Putting NJ law aside for a minute, the rule creates a Tax Free window to register the brace. What exactly would on register?! The brace itself or the completed firearm? 

Take care,

 

 

 

[PK90 3,570]

The Tax Free website is now online and live.

I just did (5) SBRs for pistols. The pistols will be the registered item, not the brace. I uploaded a pic of the receiver and firearm for each. As an FFL01/03, I had to pay for each form1 in the past, and had all intentions of making these pistols as SBRs but never got around to it. It saved me $1k. We'll see if it works and how long it will take.

[My1stGlock 144]

so short story NJ "other" owners will have to dissemble brace and convert to a complaint rifle with 16" OAL?

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

10 hours ago, PK90 said:

The Tax Free website is now online and live.

I just did (5) SBRs for pistols. The pistols will be the registered item, not the brace. I uploaded a pic of the receiver and firearm for each. As an FFL01/03, I had to pay for each form1 in the past, and had all intentions of making these pistols as SBRs but never got around to it. It saved me $1k. We'll see if it works and how long it will take.

I have an eForm account and have never used it. Does this mean that I can SBR my AR pistol with brace along with my CZ Scorpion w/brace and they will be SBR's without paying the $200 per? The downside is the registration, but can I put real stocks on them after the registration?

[1LtCAP 4,262]

2 hours ago, My1stGlock said:

so short story NJ "other" owners will have to dissemble brace and convert to a complaint rifle with 16" OAL?

kinda what it sounds like.......

[emulzhn 5]

Question for free state pistol carrier though is ‘can this SBR be carried loaded in a vehicle?’ .. unlike the braced pistol… Also, what about crossing state lines.  
I can understand that some may be totally resistant into registering however for some who had NFA ventures, may be advantageous due to waived $2hun stamp. 
However now, possibly such limitations will be tethered to this registered item… WTF… 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

i think that unless the courts kill this in short order, anyone in nj, or any other states like nj are pretty much screwed.....

 

[ESB 244]

22 hours ago, My1stGlock said:

so short story NJ "other" owners will have to dissemble brace and convert to a complaint rifle with 16" OAL?

I think you just have to remove the brace and get rid of it.  If you just have a buffer tube with nothing on it, you are OK.  But if you have a pistol brace at the same location, you now violate constructive intent and could be charged as if the brace was still on it.  <IANAL>

[Gidian 2]

5 minutes ago, ESB said:

I think you just have to remove the brace and get rid of it.  If you just have a buffer tube with nothing on it, you are OK.  But if you have a pistol brace at the same location, you now violate constructive intent and could be charged as if the brace was still on it.  <IANAL>

Unfortunately the rule changes/clarifies the definition of SBR to <16” barrel. If it’s a rifle then NJ rifle rules might apply. It seems the ATF is closing the “other” loophole so it’s a pistol, a braced Pistol, a rifle or an SBR. The Other category goes away I think. 
we will need to see how it holds up when challenged. 

[ESB 244]

Not quite.  It's <16" with a device that has enough surface area to be shouldered.  Otherwise that would make any handgun under 16" a SBR.  They did say that if requires a buffer tube to cycle, that may not necessary count as surface area for shouldering, but a device attached to the tube might. 

 

[Lawnmower2021 423]

13 minutes ago, ESB said:

I think you just have to remove the brace and get rid of it.  If you just have a buffer tube with nothing on it, you are OK.  But if you have a pistol brace at the same location, you now violate constructive intent and could be charged as if the brace was still on it.  <IANAL>

There is still contention here. It's possible that even a bare buffer tube can be considered shoulderable. Which is madness.

The only guaranteed compliance is to turn the other into a compliant rifle. But even then, I'm waiting a bit to see what happens. Personally, I need a shoulderable solution.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

7 minutes ago, Lawnmower2021 said:

There is still contention here. It's possible that even a bare buffer tube can be considered shoulderable. Which is madness.

The only guaranteed compliance is to turn the other into a compliant rifle. But even then, I'm waiting a bit to see what happens. Personally, I need a shoulderable solution.

which means that the flash hiders go byebye and gotta be pinned or welded, and the stock is back to having to be fixed.....

[Lawnmower2021 423]

17 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

which means that the flash hiders go byebye and gotta be pinned or welded, and the stock is back to having to be fixed.....

You know, this makes me wonder why the others even took off the way they did. Was it all for the adjustable brace?  

Otherwise, I guess a 13.5" barrel is interesting... those 2.5" really make the difference! 

[InFamous 311]

3 minutes ago, Lawnmower2021 said:

You know, this makes me wonder why the others even took off the way they did. Was it all for the adjustable brace?  

Otherwise, I guess a 13.5" barrel is interesting... those 2.5" really make the difference! 

I actually much prefer my "other" over my 16" + 2"ish muzzle device. They took off cause they're a smaller firearm, easier to control around obstacles, and a compact weapon for home defense. Adjustable brace is in the lowest position, flash hider I could care less about. All of these are obstructions against our rights regardless...but at least to answer your clown comment...that's probably why most of us have them. At least why I built one. 

[Lawnmower2021 423]

13 minutes ago, InFamous said:

I actually much prefer my "other" over my 16" + 2"ish muzzle device. They took off cause they're a smaller firearm, easier to control around obstacles, and a compact weapon for home defense. Adjustable brace is in the lowest position, flash hider I could care less about. All of these are obstructions against our rights regardless...but at least to answer your clown comment...that's probably why most of us have them. At least why I built one. 

The clown is really in regards to these now being "dangerous" SBRs, not to the people who built others. 

I have an other, myself. In some ways I'm rationalizing. I do, too, appreciate its mobility and practicality for home defense.

It sucks to not be able to keep it; it was actually the first long gun I ever got. But if adding 2.5" to the barrel and pinning a stock are all that I need to do, I'll be relieved and hope that's the end of it.

[InFamous 311]

1 hour ago, Lawnmower2021 said:

The clown is really in regards to these now being "dangerous" SBRs, not to the people who built others. 

I have an other, myself. In some ways I'm rationalizing. I do, too, appreciate its mobility and practicality for home defense.

It sucks to not be able to keep it; it was actually the first long gun I ever got. But if adding 2.5" to the barrel and pinning a stock are all that I need to do, I'll be relieved and hope that's the end of it.

Got you! I appreciate the response. I won't be spending a few hundred on a new barrel by May, that's for sure. 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

4 hours ago, InFamous said:

I actually much prefer my "other" over my 16" + 2"ish muzzle device. They took off cause they're a smaller firearm, easier to control around obstacles, and a compact weapon for home defense. Adjustable brace is in the lowest position, flash hider I could care less about. All of these are obstructions against our rights regardless...but at least to answer your clown comment...that's probably why most of us have them. At least why I built one. 

that's the other thing....it is my (possibly incorrect) belief that if one of these things was purchased here in nj, they know who has them.

[H2oVento 64]

soooooooo confusing... lets all play hurry up and wait. 

[Lawnmower2021 423]

For some context:

In NJ, illegal possession of a a firearm: 3-5 years in prison.

Illegal possession of an NFA item: up to 10 years in prison.

Possession of fentanyl: up to 5 years in prison and/or $35,000 fine.

 

Owning a pistol brace makes you worse than a drug addict. It makes you worse than a felon who has a gun.

 

[Redipski 25]

I'd like for someone to explain with some level of rationality that a stock on a rifle has to be pinned to prevent "concealment" or it's illegal, but if it's pinned in the shortest position, it's ok.