Jump to content
36Dictator

newbie, with a stupid question...

Recommended Posts

greetings,

 i'm in northeastern part of bergen cty, nj...

applied for the nj firearm purchaser id card/permit to purchase a handgun for the 3rd time [previously around 1998 and again around 2008, both applications apparently were lost/never got a follow up] and finally was issued both, all within a space of only about 3 weeks from the time i got fingerprinted... all things considered, i'm grateful for the new online procedure and the fact that my local pd's firearms officer promptly processed my application...

so, the permit issue confirmation notice included a link to, which i printed out from, the fpid card but i was dumbfounded not to find a link to the permit to purchase a handgun... however, after reading the confirmation of permits issue e-mail notification i saw the tiny single line where it states that one will not in fact see a physical handgun permit until a handgun transfer has taken place

i.e.: 'Your electronic permits are now available for use. You will NOT see your permit(s) until a HANDGUN TRANSFER has been EXECUTED.'

and thus i've surmised that it must mean everything is now done digitally so my 'h/g permit' is most likely in the digital domain, online database which will hopefully be accessible to the ffl dealer at the time of actual purchase... if i'm mistaken please correct me... i e-mailed my local pd's p.o. who processed my application asking about this but never received a reply...

now, i'm a quad in a wheelchair since 1990 and lately got a right shoulder impingement while transferring into my chair... then, very recently, i seem to have badly overflexed something in my wrist [tendon perhaps] while transferring into my wheelchair because i was trying to take it easy on my impinged shoulder... bottom line - i can barely transfer into my chair from my bed now, ditto car to chair transfers and pushing myself in the chair, and i should try to avoid any transfers/pressure on my right arm/shoulder for at least a month or 2 to let it heal [hopefully]...

my h/g permit's 90 day purchase window is valid until 05/30 so i need to buy a handgun prior to that date...

i've done a simple online search and found 3 or 4 of ffl dealers within a 10-15 mile radius of my location and i like one in tenafly, nj because it seems to show one's inventory online [pretty extensive for a small gun shop imo if all those firearms are indeed in stock] and it states on its website that it's military vet owned, ex special forces no less, so it's likely a patriot/good guy owned shop...i'll likely purchase a nj compliant [i.e. 10 rd mag] glock 17 or 19 as my first purchase... a couple of days ago i next e-mailed the shop and posed an inquiry but thus far, no reply...

i've scoured the web in search of an answer to my question but apparently no one has addressed such matter as of yet...

so, here's my question i've asked in that e-mail and now am posing here:

is it even legally an option at present to conduct the entire transaction online without having to physically visit the ffl dealer's location/store in order to first fill out the paperwork [form 4473, et al.], present the id/permit and have the background check initiated, and then again to actually take possession of the purchased firearm once the b/g check clears?...

i do understand that out of state online firearm purchases must be shipped to one's same state/local ffl dealer and can't be shipped directly to a non-ffl license holder buyer... however, this is a same state [as where i reside] ffl dealer who already has firearms i'm interested in buying in inventory so if i could fill out/submit the 4473 form online and submit it to the dealer via e-mail, provide scans of my driver license/permit via the same means, it seems like a practical and viable option to be able to do so and then - once the background check clears - to have the local ffl dealer ship the firearm directly to my residence...

is this currently a legally available option or am i missing something and it's not?...

it would enable me to not potentially further damage my shoulder/wrist by having to perform several very painful/damaging wheelchair transfers before my handgun purchase window closes and it's probably a win for the ffl dealer as well, i.e. less hassle, while still fully adhering to the strict legal nj requirements... please advise, thanks...

incidentally, if i won't receive a reply to my e-mail within a week of sending it to that gunshop/ffl dealer i'll most likely look for another place to make my permanent choice for my upcoming firearm purchases, any suggestions - bolstered by solid experience - within the 07677 area and vicinity of, say, 5-10 mile radius will be much appreciated...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, that's a lot of writing!

I think the question you're asking is this:

"can you conduct the entire firearms transaction online and have a firearm shipped to you without having to physically visit the ffl dealer's location/store "

Short answer is "no".

You're supposed to go to the FFL and present your information for the NICS check (even though some will take info over the phone/email and do it).

You certainly have to go to the FFL to take possession.

Theoretically you could do it all in one day if the NICS check comes back quickly, but from what people have been saying they're a few days behind at this point.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes indeed, that's exactly what i was asking...sorry if i made it somewhat unclear by superfluously droning on... 

i see, so it could be possible to fill out and submit the paperwork, if a particular ffl dealer is game, but definitely not the latter part of actually taking possession of the firearm... thanks, that's the answer i was looking for...

i actually didn't think it possible for the b/g check to be finalized that quickly in nj; at least in theory in light of your statement re- current delays...

well, hopefully this particular ffl dealer will reply asap and agree to do the paperwork remotely, it would at least cut down my2 required trips there to a single one...

i've found this link while searching in vain for my answer: 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/applications-eform-4473-download

this should likely take care of the e-mail submission of the required paperwork, along with scans of permit/driver license...

thanks again for the answer to my question...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 36Dictator said:

well, hopefully this particular ffl dealer will reply asap and agree to do the paperwork remotely, it would at least cut down my2 required trips there to a single one...

If you've established a relationship with a FFL you may be able to but for a new person most likely not.  Be prepared to take 2 trips.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the trouble is that you can't easily get in and out of the car and the dealer is helpful, you may be able to have an employee come out to your car and complete the paperwork for the first visit.  This assumes that you do not need to handle the weapon that you wish to purchase.  The second visit may require to you to come inside to take delivery.

I hope that helps and that you enjoy whatever you purchase.  I will also point out that your permits should be extended an extra 90 days if you do not make a purchase.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, EdF said:

If the trouble is that you can't easily get in and out of the car and the dealer is helpful, you may be able to have an employee come out to your car and complete the paperwork for the first visit.  This assumes that you do not need to handle the weapon that you wish to purchase.  The second visit may require to you to come inside to take delivery.

I hope that helps and that you enjoy whatever you purchase.  I will also point out that your permits should be extended an extra 90 days if you do not make a purchase.

[edited] you've touched upon an important aspect for me, especially regarding the second visit to take possession in light of my latest findings... about an hour ago i've entered the addresses of all 4 ffl dealers/gunshops nearest to me and looked them up in street view...i was extremely surprised to find only tiny street front shops, i mean small bodegas in nyc have much bigger streetside presence... most of them are not wheelchair accessible, at least not without serious assistance from a 3rd person [or 2 people to carry me up] due to steps in front of their door...one door seemed barely wide enough to fit a wheelchair through and actually kind of dilapidated...that vendor has no inventory posted online whatsoever and the entire size of that shop kind of excluded any possibility of having anything inside but maybe a small office...

that was 2 of them, another one is in a small 2 story building located on a 2nd floor according to their address and there's no way there's any type of a lift/elevator inside, nix that one off my list... the one that seemed to be most promising regarding wheelchair access was in a large single building that likely has a ramp in the back or at one of its sides... however, the entire building is a....funeral home!!... and the last name of the funeral home's owner on a sign in front is thesame as the gun shop's owner... seems somewhat creepy and a macabre combination, i'm not sure i'd like to do business with someone who owns both a  gun shop and a funeral home haha... they do seem to have good 'google' reviews, as does the tiny tenafly shop with 3 steps in front of its entrance...

i think i'm down to the tenafly and the funeral home as my only choices for a local fll dealer if i will have to actually physically visit the locations and enter the premises somehow... i'll call each one and inquire whether i could fill out the paperwork during the initial visit in a car... the only other choice seems to be dick's sporting goods as a 5th alternative relatively near me but i somehow feel weird about choosing that as my choice plus it would have to be an online order from another gun vendor then...

as far as the permit's extension, does that happen automatically if i fail to make the purchase before the initial 90 days are up?...i think i'd have to request an extension... well, i'd lke to purchase the handgun soon, just in case some other calamity similar to covid might happen meanwhile and result in closed shops/restrictions on visiting gun shops, et al.  thus the 90 day limit should be sufficient for me to make my purchase...i'll likely buy my handgun well before this month is up, just have to figure out the logistics of actually visiting the premises...

thank you for your input...

Edited by 36Dictator
fixed a bit of a context by changing the wording...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

READ THE TOP 2 PARAGRAPHS OF THE 4473.

"Prepare in original only at the licensed premises".

Due to recent covid restrictions, ATF ruled a parking lot qualifies as the premises.

Find a dealer that will work with you. No need to go into details. Keep the conversation short and to the point. At least shorter than your posts here. LOL.

  • Informative 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

Dick's won't do Transfers from shipped in guns.  Don't support them... they're.... Dicks...

My last permit auto-renewed.  They Auto-renew now on the FARS system I believe.

didn't know that, i wasn't going to go with them anyway unless all other options wouldn't work and now that takes them completely off the table... meanwhile i've found out that the 'funeral home' based ffl dealer/shop i mentioned in a previous post above is actually owned by a guy my family used for a funeral a few years back and i spoke to the owner at a cemetery... he's actually a very nice guy and unless there'll be some key reason not to, i'm going to go with it as my ffl dealer of choice for now...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, PK90 said:

READ THE TOP 2 PARAGRAPHS OF THE 4473.

"Prepare in original only at the licensed premises".

Due to recent covid restrictions, ATF ruled a parking lot qualifies as the premises.

Find a dealer that will work with you. No need to go into details. Keep the conversation short and to the point. At least shorter than your posts here. LOL.

somehow i missed that beginning part of the form, but  i do believe that recently [the last update on e-form 4473 on atf website is from 01/2022] they have made it an option to fill out [and submit?] the form electronically but it's more involved than just downloading the form and filling it out/submitting, as it seems to me after i've delved deeper into this... it sounds quite complicated in fact; at least the instructions do...

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/digital-storage-form-4473

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/applications-eform-4473-download

however, if an ffl dealer declines to go that route it won't help me anyway...

if i'll go with that 'funeral home' based ffl dealer - and now i most likely will - it solves the accessibility issue as they're fully wheelchair accessible so i won't have to resort to the 'parking lot' option but it's a good piece of info to be aware of... 

could you reference where it officially states that parking lot now qualifies as the premises?... this is a helpful legal info for others with mobility issues such as mine...

as far as my long posts, yeah, i'm aware of this affliction hehe...i've tried to thoroughly analyze it some time ago and concluded that it goes back all the way to my childhood  when i've simply been frustrated time and again because i've often been misunderstood due to limited communication between myself and others - including adults - creating issues where there shouldn't be any... then entire 'situations' or conflicts had to be re-explained/rectified requiring great effort of time and energy and gradually i've developed a habit of trying to be as exhaustive as possible from the very beginning when presenting or describing any point or subject... of course that has its own shortcomings and frequently muddles up a main point i try to establish haha... apologies to anyone here who finds my posts tedious to get through...

Edited by 36Dictator
added 2 links...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ATF email from 4/19/2020 .... 

Quote

 

In light of the March 13, 2020, declaration of a national emergency concerning the outbreak of the novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19), and the Department of Homeland Security’s subsequent classification of firearms businesses as essential, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received questions from industry members regarding the legality of firearm sales and deliveries exterior to the brick-and-mortar structure at which the firearms business is licensed. Specifically, Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) have requested guidance regarding whether they may verify customer identity and permit the completion of paperwork, including for purposes of the National Instant Criminal Background Check System; accept payment; and deliver firearms or ammunition to customers (collectively, “the requested activities”) in the following settings: (1) a drive-up or walk-up window or doorway on the FFL’s property; (2) a temporary table or booth located in a parking lot on the FFL’s property; and (3) a nearby space that is not located on the FFL’s property.

As is further detailed below, pursuant to the Gun Control Act (GCA) and its implementing regulations, a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the firearms or ammunition business for which the business is licensed on any part of its business premises, provided that the activity otherwise complies with all applicable federal laws and regulations, and any sale, delivery, or disposition would not violate any State law or published ordinance applicable at the place of sale, delivery, or other disposition.

Title 18, United States Code, Section 922(a)(1)(A) provides that it is unlawful for any person, except a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms. As provided in 18 U.S.C. § 923(a), “No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General,” each applicant paying a fee for such a license, “a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business.” The Attorney General shall issue to a qualified applicant the appropriate license. See 18 U.S.C. § 923(c).

The qualifications for obtaining a firearms license are set forth in 18 U.S.C. § 923(d), which requires, among other things, that the applicant have in a State “premises from which he conducts business subject to license under this chapter or from which he intends to conduct such business within a reasonable period of time.” See 18 U.S.C. § 923(d)(1)(E)(i). Applicants must also certify that the business to be conducted is not prohibited by State or local law in the place where the licensed premises is located. 18 U.S.C. § 923(d)(1)(F)(i). If a dealer, the applicant must “certif[y] that secure gun storage or safety devices will be available at any place in which firearms are sold under the license to persons who are not licensees.” 18 U.S.C. § 923(d)(1)(G).

Although Congress did not define what constitutes a business “place” or “premises” in the GCA, ATF has defined the term “business premises” in the GCA’s implementing regulations. Specifically, the GCA regulations define the term “business premises” to mean “[t]he property on which the manufacturing or importing of firearms or ammunition or the dealing in firearms is or will be conducted.” 27 C.F.R. § 478.11. Further, as provided in 27 C.F.R. § 478.50, a firearms license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license “at the address specified therein.” As provided in 27 C.F.R. § 478.23, ATF must be able to “enter during business hours (or, in the case of a licensed collector, the hours of operation) the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining: (1) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and (2) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises . . . .” ATF Form 4473, the Firearms Transaction Record, also instructs that the document shall be “Prepare[d] in original only at the licensed premises.”

In light of these and other provisions of the GCA, a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may, in qualifying circumstances, carry out the requested activities on any part of the business premises, including the exterior of the brick-and-mortar structure, provided, the activity otherwise complies with all applicable federal laws and regulations, and any sale, delivery, or disposition would not violate any State law or published ordinance applicable at the place of sale, delivery, or other disposition.

Specifically,

  1. An FFL may carry out the requested activities through a drive-up or walk-up window or doorway where the customer is on the licensee’s property on the exterior of the brick-and-mortar structure at the address listed on the license.
  2. An FFL may also carry out the requested activities from a temporary table or booth located in a parking lot or other exterior location on the licensee’s property at the address listed on the license, but any such activities must occur in a location where the licensee has the authority to permit ATF’s entry for inspection purposes. Whether the FFL has the authority to permit such entry, and whether a location constitutes the FFL’s property, is likely to be a fact-specific inquiry. An FFL carrying out the requested activities from an exterior table or booth should maintain its inventory and records securely in the interior of the brick-and-mortar structure and ensure that the records of each firearms transaction are stored in the interior.
  3. An FFL may not carry out the requested activities from a nearby space that is not located on the licensee’s property at the address listed on the license, unless such activities are at a qualified in-state gun show or event, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 923(j) and 27 C.F.R. § 478.100, or other provision of federal law.
  4. An FFL may conduct non-over-the-counter firearm sales to unlicensed in-state residents who are exempt from NICS requirements in accordance with 18 U.S.C. § 922(c), 27 § C.F.R. 478.96, and ATF Procedure 2013-2.

Guidance documents, like this industry letter, are not binding and lack the force and effect of law, unless expressly authorized by statute or expressly incorporated into a contract, grant, or cooperative agreement. Consistent with Executive Order 13891 and the Office of Management and Budget implementing memoranda, the Department will not cite, use, or rely on any guidance document that is not accessible through the Department’s guidance portal, or similar guidance portals for other Executive Branch departments and agencies, except to establish historical facts. To the extent any guidance document sets out voluntary standards (e.g., recommended practices), compliance with those standards is voluntary, and noncompliance will not result in enforcement action. Guidance documents may be rescinded or modified in the Department’s complete discretion, consistent with applicable laws.

Any questions pertaining to this industry letter may be sent to the Firearms Industry Programs Branch at [email protected] or (202) 648-7190.

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, PK90 said:

ATF email from 4/19/2020 .... 

 

great to know, thanks... i suppose that in car/parking lot would fall under #3...

that atf e-mail, is there a link to an official webpage where it could be accessed and referenced if called upon?...

 

[edit] - never mind, found it:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/atf-business-premises-guidance-letter-4-10-2020/download

thank you...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Xtors said:

OT but @36Dictator but love your avatar photo! Hard to make out but what year 442? That's my favorite muscle car from back in the day. To be specific: 1971 convertible 442 in gun metal blue. :) 

good eye dude...

yeah man, that's my '69 442...not a clone, a real deal 4-4-2 but obviously, due to my disability, i had to buy one with an auto tranny, not a 4 speed... i only owned one new car in my life, a highly customized '99 chevy s10 p/u [full cab cut out  walk-through conversion with a permanent sleeper/bed cap, air ride suspension, etc] which went straight to a custom shop from dealership lot... however, all my other rides, bikes [before breaking my neck and becoming wheelchair bound] and cars, were from thee '60s and '70s with at least some go-fast mods...

this one is almost a factory stocker though, another first for me, with only the ignition changed to hei/electronic, radial tires, front disc brakes and an edelbrock intake [but i do have the very same intake it left the factory with]... engine never rebuilt or out of the car with just under 118k on its clock currently...only one repaint by previous owner in '84 using factory lacquer and same paint code it was born with [crimson red/black stripes and parchment white interior]... the shine/depth is unbelievable for a factory code job that's nearly 40 years old. [interior had to be partially restored though, using high quality upholstery kit to factory spec].. even the factory ss2 mag wheells are painted the correct argent silver, not body color which many change to but it's incorrect for a '69 ... factory: a/c, buckets/console, pb, pb, th400 auto with 12 bolt posi rear...even has a working power antenna for its factory radio...

have a book of work/maintenance receipts [even a bunch of gas receipts from '70s hehe, it was dirt cheap back then], including original dealer invoice, going back to beginning up to present...

sold my '36 studebaker dictator coupe traditional hot rod i owned for 20 years AND a multi-award winning, 4 custom/hot rod magazine featured full kustom '60 ford fairlane [built by kkoa hall of fame builder/painter] i purchased in 2010 from a famous hot rod artist/tattoo artist on the scene, in order to purchase a n unmolested classic muscle car for myself... looked for 2 years before i chose this 442 as the one... bought it in 02/2017, intended as my last car and to baby it unlike my previous rides... to occasionally daily drive it except for winters/snow as i no longer drove everywhere and everyday...

tons of fun, even now just going for a 5-10 mile ride, no headers, factory manifolds through dual exhaust but rumbles and roars like pedigree muscle cars from the heyday of that era should...has balls too, tons of torque...

sadly, i must sell it because my health/physical shape has recently deteriorated to the point where i rarely drive... i have no climate controlled garage, only a shelter-logic rigid tent/garage at my mom's place where i keep it parked and it's better to sell than allow it to slowly deteriorate from lack of use... old cars especially are much better served driven regularly than stored undriven for the most part... i'm asking 25k if you're/anyone's interested btw, way below blue book value or current selling prices of same cars/models...it's in way better condition than 'good' which hagerty's blue book lists at just over $30k... hope i'm not violating forum's policies by mentioning this... if so, the admin/mod can just delete the price part...

so yeah, good eye man... the avatar is tiny and i chose a photo [an exaggerated front perspective with a slightly wide lens setting] that could function as some abstract color shape/study if one didn't look closer. or isn't into rides...

:)

 

[edit] added a few pix, taken 10/2021... in the last one, the colors are off, the red is somewhat washed out and too pink...idk how to fix colors on photos...

9P4A4056sizedsmall.jpg

9P4A4082sizedsmall.jpg

9P4A4157sizedsmall.jpg

9P4A4167sizedsmall.jpg

Edited by 36Dictator
added pix...
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...