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20 minutes ago, Bomber said:

Are these guys FID holders who decided to shoot themselves at a gun range or something  else?

I believe it was just one person so i would say so. I don't think you can rent there without having an fid unless you're with a friend. 

Don't quote me on that though. 

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I want to express my sadness regarding the news of this second, most unfortunate recent suicide event at RTSP/Union, in March 2022.  Many of us are well aware of the multiple suicides committed by young men at indoor gun ranges in NJ that have occurred in just the past 6-7 years, (i.e. Gun For Hire, Tactical Training Ctr. and RTSP (Randolph & Union locations), etc…). These people have either rented a handgun or used a handgun of someone who owns one and shared it with them at the range.  As a result of these awful suicides at gun ranges, a number of gun range owners, working as a consortium, have instituted policy changes that were a joint-effort with the NSSF and the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention.  Unfortunately, though, it appears not to be enough.  This reality has made me very concerned about going to any gun range that is open to the public and rents firearms for their use.  I just do not trust that ALL of these people will learn, accept and practice the safe use of firearms in their port, with others around them.  The means and location of this suicide is just one more reason why this type of public gun range venue continues to be a real challenge to those of us who do learn and practice firearm safety protocalls, but are skeptical that others will do the same, let alone if they have hidden suicidal intentions.

As a previous member of RTSP, along with my wife, we have the highest regard and respect for everyone at RTSP, from the ownership partners, management, RSO’s, sales, training and gunsmith staff. We understand that the process and procedures that RTSP and other gun ranges have put into effect and continuously modify in ongoing attempts to reduce the chances for this type of incident of being repeated, are the “cost” of doing business.  We will certainly abide by whatever additional rules and regulations they institute to attempt to avoid a repeat or similar incident in the future. While some may find these new rules inconvenient it is their business to run as they see fit, abiding by ever more intrusive insurance requirements.  Everyone at RTSP has our sincere condolences and best wishes on dealing with the aftermath of this tragic event.

Suicide unfortunately, is a fact of life and will never go away.  As I believe most of us understand, if someone is determined to commit suicide it is almost impossible to stop them.  Usually, using a gun to do so results in immediate results.  It is a shame that a disturbed individual, regardless of whether or not they are a new or a repeat customer to a gun range, chooses to attempt, or succeed in this sad selfish act in a public forum.  They seem to be oblivious to the fact that they are surrounded by many other innocent people who are minding their own business.  The person who chooses to shoot themselves at a public gun range exposes these other innocent bystanders to witness their horrible desperate act, as well as potentially putting those people in physical harm’s way.  I believe anyone who chooses to attempt or succeed in this sad act of suicide-by-gun, in a gun range, (a semi-public setting), is being incredibly selfish, not caring how their suicide death by shooting themselves will profoundly and adversely affect all of their friends and loved ones, let alone the other innocent people at that gun range who happen to be standing and shooting nearby.

I think we all agree that suicide is a tragic choice made by someone who, for various complicated reasons, at the very least, wants to call attention to themselves in a desperate act, and/or at the other extreme end, does not want to live any longer and chooses this venue as the most expedient manner to achieve their desired result.  Looking at the factual statistics, even though this is beginning to change, historically, the majority of gun deaths have been suicides, and just over half of suicides involve guns.  I do not blame firearms for suicides, which is a ludicrous assertion.  Firearms are the tool of choice, selected and used by SOME people, mostly males, to commit suicide, since it is usually a very effective and efficient tool, with immediate results.

I share the concern of others, that now almost 28 months since the COVIS-19 virus pandemic began and the incredible disruption it has caused, specifically the mandatory lock-downs, and employment disruptions, all contributing to escalating economic decline and mental despair, could be the recipe for even more attempted/successful suicides.  We also know that gun sales have risen steadily over the past two years.  The on/off/on shutdowns aimed at containing the virus have disrupted lives, destroyed small businesses and led to social isolation.  Now, with the shocking invasion and wanton destruction of the Ukraine by Russia, possibly escalating into a broader conflict using nuclear weapons, along with continued price inflation affecting most consumer goods internationally, it is understandable how people’s anxiety and fear levels are continuing to grow. There have been a number of studies that have shown an increase in personal anxiety, sadness and fear could push someone into a real crisis, especially if they are already suffering from some form of mental illness. Therefore, I am concerned that we may very well see an increase in the number of these attempted/successful suicide-by-gun at public gun ranges, not just in NJ, but nationally…

AVB-AMG

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9 hours ago, AVB-AMG said:

Therefore, I am concerned that we may very well see an increase in the number of these attempted/successful suicide-by-gun at public gun ranges, not just in NJ, but nationally…

AVB-AMG

Therefore, we should shut down the rail lines so people don't throw themselves in front of NJ Transit trains.  We should also stop selling rope at hardware / home improvement stores so that people don't hang themselves.  We should stop selling vehicles that spew CO2 into the air so that people don't run their car in their closed garage to end it all.  Let's stop selling pills as well.

It's not the instrument, it's the intent.  Please go back into hiding and stay there.  I'd use stronger language, but having already been scolded for mocking you cost me with the mods.

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2 hours ago, CMJeepster said:

It's not the instrument, it's the intent.

Apparently, you missed my point.  My post was my expression of sadness in the specific incident at RTSP, along with my concern about how it appears to becoming a more frequent trend.  I also stated my opinion about suicide by firearm, based on the facts and reality.  The issue is not as simplistic as you make it out to be when you say, “It’s not the instrument, it is the intent”.  Your comparisons are irrelevant to the point of fact that the majority of gun deaths in the U.S. are suicides.  If you are interested in the facts on this reality, then here they are:

Below is a sobering quote from a report published by the bi-partisan Joint Economic Committee in the U.S. Congress, titled: “Guns and Suicide”. The report is very thorough and its sources are well documented with footnotes.
This is a web link to a pdf file of the full report:

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/e4c6a3e3-a170-4cee-8218-0167fe4311e9/jec2019-gunsandsuicide-final.pdf

The U.S. has the highest gun suicide rate of any country on earth. In terms of raw numbers, it works out to roughly just over 24,000 deaths per year. Since the CDC began publishing data in 1981, gun suicides have outnumbered gun homicides every year. Since 2009, the number of gun suicides has been one and a half times higher than the number of gun homicides each year.

Having access to a firearm during a moment of increased suicide risk, such as a job loss, increases the risk of completing suicide. Research shows that the impulse of suicide is transitory and that access to guns is a risk factor for whether a suicide attempt is fatal. The interval between the decision to act and an attempt can be as short as 10 minutes or less, and research shows a substitute to a different method is unlikely when a highly lethal method is available. Among adults who have recently purchased a gun, there is a higher firearm suicide rate, especially within the first year of a gun purchase. The high correlation between access to guns and suicide rates is closely tied to the lethality of firearms—suicide attempts involving a firearm are far more likely to result in death than other methods.”

Also, according to the CDC, in 2020, the most recent year for which complete data is available, 45,979 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S. That figure includes gun murders and gun suicides, along with three other, less common types of gun-related deaths tracked by the CDC: those that were unintentional, those that involved law enforcement and those whose circumstances could not be determined. The total excludes deaths in which gunshot injuries played a contributing, but not principal, role. (CDC fatality statistics are based on information contained in official death certificates, which identify a single cause of death.) Though they tend to get less public attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. The Pew Research Center has determined that suicides accounted for more than half of the gun deaths in the U.S. in 2020, a percentage that has generally remained stable in recent years.  Specifically, 54% (24,292) were suicides and 43% (19,384) were murders. The number of gun suicides has risen in recent years, climbing 10% over five years and 25% over 10 years, and is now near its highest point on record. The 24,292-gun suicides that took place in 2020 were the most in any year except 2018, when there were 24,432.

Additional facts about suicide in the US.
(Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality Data (2020) via CDC WONDER)

In 2020, the suicide rates were higher among adults ages 25 to 34 years (18.35 per 100,000) and 75 to 84 years (18.43 per 100,000), with the rate highest among adults ages 85 years or older (20.86 per 100,000). Younger groups have had consistently lower suicide rates than middle-aged and older adults. In 2020, adolescents and young adults aged 15 to 24 had a suicide rate of 14.24 per 100,000.

  • Suicide is the 12th leading cause of death in the U.S.
  • In 2020, there were an estimated 1.20 million suicide attempts in the U.S.
  • The suicide rate in 2020 was 7.4 per 100,000 individuals.
  • The rate of suicide is highest in middle-aged white men.
  • In 2020, men died by suicide 3.88x more than women.
  • On average, there are 130 suicides per day.
  • White males accounted for 69.68% of suicide deaths in 2020.
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36 minutes ago, FairbanksRusty said:

These “pay to go bang” ranges are interested most in their profit margin. They can and do let anyone in to shoot. One hopes they can weed out those with ill intent. It’s a crap shoot from there as to what happens. 

Not sure how you could possibly weed people out. Most ranges here don't let you shoot without either an fid card or with a partner.

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12 minutes ago, AVB-AMG said:

Apparently, you missed my point.  My post was my expression of sadness in the specific incident at RTSP, along with my concern about how it appears to becoming a more frequent trend.  I also stated my opinion about suicide by firearm, based on the facts and reality.  The issue is not as simplistic as you make it out to be when you say, “It’s not the instrument, it is the intent”.  Your comparisons are irrelevant to the point of fact that the majority of gun deaths in the U.S. are suicides.  If you are interested in the facts on this reality, then here they are:

Below is a sobering quote from a report published by the bi-partisan Joint Economic Committee in the U.S. Congress, titled: “Guns and Suicide”. The report is very thorough and its sources are well documented with footnotes.
This is a web link to a pdf file of the full report:

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/e4c6a3e3-a170-4cee-8218-0167fe4311e9/jec2019-gunsandsuicide-final.pdf

The U.S. has the highest gun suicide rate of any country on earth. In terms of raw numbers, it works out to roughly just over 24,000 deaths per year. Since the CDC began publishing data in 1981, gun suicides have outnumbered gun homicides every year. Since 2009, the number of gun suicides has been one and a half times higher than the number of gun homicides each year.

Having access to a firearm during a moment of increased suicide risk, such as a job loss, increases the risk of completing suicide. Research shows that the impulse of suicide is transitory and that access to guns is a risk factor for whether a suicide attempt is fatal. The interval between the decision to act and an attempt can be as short as 10 minutes or less, and research shows a substitute to a different method is unlikely when a highly lethal method is available. Among adults who have recently purchased a gun, there is a higher firearm suicide rate, especially within the first year of a gun purchase. The high correlation between access to guns and suicide rates is closely tied to the lethality of firearms—suicide attempts involving a firearm are far more likely to result in death than other methods.”

Also, according to the CDC, in 2020, the most recent year for which complete data is available, 45,979 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S. That figure includes gun murders and gun suicides, along with three other, less common types of gun-related deaths tracked by the CDC: those that were unintentional, those that involved law enforcement and those whose circumstances could not be determined. The total excludes deaths in which gunshot injuries played a contributing, but not principal, role. (CDC fatality statistics are based on information contained in official death certificates, which identify a single cause of death.) Though they tend to get less public attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. The Pew Research Center has determined that suicides accounted for more than half of the gun deaths in the U.S. in 2020, a percentage that has generally remained stable in recent years.  Specifically, 54% (24,292) were suicides and 43% (19,384) were murders. The number of gun suicides has risen in recent years, climbing 10% over five years and 25% over 10 years, and is now near its highest point on record. The 24,292-gun suicides that took place in 2020 were the most in any year except 2018, when there were 24,432.

Additional facts about suicide in the US.
(Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality Data (2020) via CDC WONDER)

In 2020, the suicide rates were higher among adults ages 25 to 34 years (18.35 per 100,000) and 75 to 84 years (18.43 per 100,000), with the rate highest among adults ages 85 years or older (20.86 per 100,000). Younger groups have had consistently lower suicide rates than middle-aged and older adults. In 2020, adolescents and young adults aged 15 to 24 had a suicide rate of 14.24 per 100,000.

  • Suicide is the 12th leading cause of death in the U.S.
  • In 2020, there were an estimated 1.20 million suicide attempts in the U.S.
  • The suicide rate in 2020 was 7.4 per 100,000 individuals.
  • The rate of suicide is highest in middle-aged white men.
  • In 2020, men died by suicide 3.88x more than women.
  • On average, there are 130 suicides per day.
  • White males accounted for 69.68% of suicide deaths in 2020.

What a dumb article. Of course the US has the highest gun suicide RATE. We have the most guns. We're not even in the top 10 for highest suicide rate. 

The article goes on to talk about the quick decision suicides, "10 minutes or less to decide." You can't even get to a gun range, rent a gun, and watch the safety video in that time frame. 

The article then merges together essentially every way to die by a gun. Suicide, accidents, cops, gangs, murder etc. We know people die from gun crimes. 

Then random suicide statistics. 

Written by a moron Democrat from NY. 

This is literal lib Antigun propaganda. Look at the countries in the top 10 in suicide rates, they all find a way. 

People have had the ability to rent a gun and commit suicide like this for years and there's been a handful of incidents. More people have probably died at 6 flags. 

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13 hours ago, FairbanksRusty said:

These “pay to go bang” ranges are interested most in their profit margin. They can and do let anyone in to shoot. One hopes they can weed out those with ill intent. It’s a crap shoot from there as to what happens. 

@FairbanksRusty

I tend to agree with you.  While I have and do enjoy target shooting at an indoor gun range, I am becoming more concerned and even nervous about the lack of seriousness demonstrated by many folks who are first-time gun shooters, regarding all of the gun safety protocols that we are taught in our various firearms training courses.  The short perfunctory mandatory watching of a "safety video" at the gun range for these first-time shooters just covers the bare minimum of safety rules and proceedures.  While shooting at these indoor gun ranges I have witnessed numerous safety violations, mostly unintentional, but still potentially dangerous to people in other gun ports at these ranges. Then, while I understand that it is a remote possibility, in the back of my mind, is the speculation as to questioning if one of these other people in an adjacent gun port may be one of the few who wants to commit suicide by gun?  If so, what if they miss...?  Where does that stray bullet go? 

Therefore, I find that shooting handguns, rifles and shotguns at outdoor ranges and courses appeals to me more than shooting at an indoor gun range.  In that situation, I get plenty of fresh air and my ears have to deal with less sound reververation that one is subjected to inside an enclosed indoor gun range.

For what it is worth, I applaud some of the regional gun ranges that have instituted dedicated time slots for "members only", or even dedicated ranges for members, as ways to separate them from the general public and these first-time shooters.  But that entails an expense of membership that many gun owner's and enthusiasts may not be able to afford.

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7 hours ago, FairbanksRusty said:

Those who succeeded came in with a partner. 

Well that's my point. There unfornately is really no way to stop/weed out people who decide this. If the partners shooting with them didn't pick up on it,  how could a random 17 year old working the desk at rtsp.

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1 hour ago, Cheflife15 said:

Well that's my point. There unfornately is really no way to stop/weed out people who decide this. If the partners shooting with them didn't pick up on it,  how could a random 17 year old working the desk at rtsp.

I think you’re on to something here. Maybe a 17 year old shouldn’t be making the decision that person is fit to go in the range? It’s like an amusement park; are you tall enough when you stand next to the sign height chart to go on the ride? I digress. There’s plenty of people who take their lives via other means. According to one study, suicides in ranges are relatively rare in the U.S.  

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32343169/

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1 hour ago, FairbanksRusty said:

I think you’re on to something here. Maybe a 17 year old shouldn’t be making the decision that person is fit to go in the range? It’s like an amusement park; are you tall enough when you stand next to the sign height chart to go on the ride? I digress. There’s plenty of people who take their lives via other means. According to one study, suicides in ranges are relatively rare in the U.S.  

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32343169/

He won't care.  He's afraid of his own shadow.

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11 hours ago, AVB-AMG said:

The issue is not as simplistic as you make it out to be when you say, “It’s not the instrument, it is the intent”.  Your comparisons are irrelevant to the point of fact that the majority of gun deaths in the U.S. are suicides.

What is the percentage for rail deaths; suicide vs accidental vs homicide? What are the ratios for hanging? Your dismissal of other methods of suicide makes no sense.

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20 hours ago, AVB-AMG said:

* White males accounted for 69.68% of suicide deaths in 2020.

 Let me guess, POC's have some of the lowest suicide rates, (they have way too much to live for).

You rarely hear about some dirt poor illegal alien offing themselves.

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20 hours ago, AVB-AMG said:

[from a quote...]The U.S. has the highest gun suicide rate of any country on earth. In terms of raw numbers, it works out to roughly just over 24,000 deaths per year. Since the CDC began publishing data in 1981, gun suicides have outnumbered gun homicides every year. Since 2009, the number of gun suicides has been one and a half times higher than the number of gun homicides each year.

That boldfaced statement is true. It's also true that Japan (one of the many countries with a higher suicide rate than ours), has the highest train suicide rate of any country on earth. And... the point I'm making...?... Regrettably, whether by a "bullet" in the U.S. or a "bullet train" in Japan, both sets of suicide victims are equally dead. I'm not saying that to be flippant...or harsh... quite the opposite! Suicide is a HORRIBLE and quite senseless act! It leaves surviving families and friends torn apart at the seams, utterly devastated, and often it leaves them guilt-ridden, too (usually undeservedly so). When done publicly, as you correctly point out, it also devastates the onlookers who are unfortunate enough to be present. As for the RTSP victim, my heart breaks for him but ALSO for his loved ones, because his act has no doubt broken them into a million little pieces!

So yeah, on this point, I must agree with @CMJeepster- "It's not the instrument, it's the intent" - because that statement is, in fact, entirely logical! The suicidal intent IS the core problem. Unfortunately, there's not a country on earth IMO that does a good or even an adequate job of dealing with serious mental illness. Around the world, it's uniformly stigmatized, and there's typically sub-par access to effective treatments (although the stigma alone is often enough to keep people from even seeking treatment). Those are the "root causes" and that's where any focus needs to go.

And, if we want to LEARN from recent history, I think we also need to take a harsh look at the rise in mental health issues that happened during COVID. Hmmm, whaddaya know?... as it turns out, destroying peoples businesses, wrecking their dreams and their financial futures, keeping the elderly locked up in isolation away from their families, keeping people from enjoying the solice of their places of worship, etc. - ALL of that feeds depression... and suicidality! So, in many parts of the U.S., we only made problems FAR WORSE.

My final point would be that the CDC has a clear, decades-long track record of blatant anti-gun bias... I would argue that on the issue of guns, the CDC is nothing more than a government-sponsored public relations arm of the gun control movement. They are so overtly politicized around this issue, they simply have ZERO credibility! Naturally, I react to any of their cringe-worthy "reports" on guns with the hefty dose of cynicism it deserves. Any gun owner would be wise to do the same IMO.

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OK... gentle reminder: let's try to keep the debate spirited yet respectful. I know the issue raised is a particularly difficult one to grapple with, and it strikes at some core values (for folks on all sides of the issue, I'm sure), but that's not a reason to let this thread turn into a free-for-all either!  Kindly keep the anger/sarcasm in check. 

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15 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

So yeah, on this point, I must agree with @CMJeepster- "It's not the instrument, it's the intent" - because that statement is, in fact, entirely logical! The suicidal intent IS the core problem.

Thank you.  When we (finally) meet, the first round is on me.

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40 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

OK... gentle reminder: let's try to keep the debate spirited yet respectful. I know the issue raised is a particularly difficult one to grapple with, and it strikes at some core values (for folks on all sides of the issue, I'm sure), but that's not a reason to let this thread turn into a free-for-all either!  Kindly keep the anger/sarcasm in check. 

Werd.

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Not to get too Columbo on the topic, but let's see what's said about a similar topic:  Letter: Guns not the root of the problem amid violent crime increase (yahoo.com)

"The good points in a story published April 5 and headlined "Violent crimes up: Times guns pulled in threatening manner more than doubled since 2019" are overshadowed by references to "gun violence" implying that guns are the cause of the violence. Guns are stupid, inanimate objects, incapable of cogent thought and can’t be blamed for anything. The individuals who choose to commit crimes are directly responsible."

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