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Cheflife15

Ar15 vs Bullpup rifle

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I recently purchased a Daniel defense ddm4 v7.  It’s accurate and aesthetic. However I think because of my spinal surgery, I prefer Bullpup style guns.  I like shorter barrel, easy to hold guns.  

I’m debating selling or trading for a Springfield hellion or an iwi tavor x95.

Is there any disadvantage to a Bullpup that i will lose by switching? I don’t really see myself ever shooting past 100 yards.  

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Why would there be a disadvantage to having a bull pup and shooting past 100 yards?

What do you think a bullpup will be better for you following spinal surgery?

Bullpups don’t have shorter barrels. They have shorter overall length because the action is moved behind the trigger. In fact, my MSAR with 16” barrel is shorter than my SBF with 11.75” barrel. The MSAR is also heavier with a center of balance well behind the grip.

Manual of arms is different than the M16/M4 FOW but other than slower emergency reloads (arguable) weapon handling/manipulations are merely different, not better or worse.

The Hellion is too new to have any kind of track record, but so far reviews have been meh. I did not like the Tavor the few times I have shot one.

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32 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Why would there be a disadvantage to having a bull pup and shooting past 100 yards?

What do you think a bullpup will be better for you following spinal surgery?

Bullpups don’t have shorter barrels. They have shorter overall length because the action is moved behind the trigger. In fact, my MSAR with 16” barrel is shorter than my SBF with 11.75” barrel. The MSAR is also heavier with a center of balance well behind the grip.

Manual of arms is different than the M16/M4 FOW but other than slower emergency reloads (arguable) weapon handling/manipulations are merely different, not better or worse.

The Hellion is too new to have any kind of track record, but so far reviews have been meh. I did not like the Tavor the few times I have shot one.

The reviews I've watched on the tavor and hellion have stated they're not as accurate.

As far as the spinal surgery part, I find holding bullpups to be less taxing on my back. The Daniel defense i have is only .5 lbs heavier then my beretta cx4. It feels significantly heavier. I also have an easier time holding the Beretta closer to the body without extending my support hand further, thus taking some pressure off as well. Shorter barrel was the wrong term where I meant shorter guns in general.

Can I ask what you didn't like about the tavor?

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I think the accuracy ‘issue’ many people talk about with bullpup rifles has more to do with poor triggers than anything else. Kind of the trade off you get it’s bull pups. 
In many cases, the crap trigger pulls can be remedied with aftermarket parts. 
 

 

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9 hours ago, Cheflife15 said:

The reviews I've watched on the tavor and hellion have stated they're not as accurate.

As far as the spinal surgery part, I find holding bullpups to be less taxing on my back. The Daniel defense i have is only .5 lbs heavier then my beretta cx4. It feels significantly heavier. I also have an easier time holding the Beretta closer to the body without extending my support hand further, thus taking some pressure off as well. Shorter barrel was the wrong term where I meant shorter guns in general.

Can I ask what you didn't like about the tavor?

Accurate as compared to…… what? Accuracy is not an absolute - how accurate a shooter are you?

This is completely subjective: 
The Tavor felt clunky. It was like my 12 year old built it out of legos and cardboard with no knowledge of how a gun feels or how the body worked. Ergos we’re off, everything about it felt forced. It had a meh trigger, it was blasty, and a had a weird recoil impulse. 

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35 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Accurate as compared to…… what? Accuracy is not an absolute - how accurate a shooter are you?

This is completely subjective: 
The Tavor felt clunky. It was like my 12 year old built it out of legos and cardboard with no knowledge of how a gun feels or how the body worked. Ergos we’re off, everything about it felt forced. It had a meh trigger, it was blasty, and a had a weird recoil impulse. 

That's a pretty brutal review lol.

My accuracy point is in terms of at distance compared to a daniel defense. The only info I have on this gun is what others wrote about it.

@Displaced Texantrigger comment could be a huge reason for less than ideal accuracy.

I always thought when reviewers discuss accuracy they would use a bench rest, thus taking the human error out of the equation but that probably isn't the case.

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I've got the "old style" Tavor with a trigger pack/bar upgrade.  I like the trigger, and it's way more accurate than I am.

I like the rifle overall, but it's relatively heavy and the magazine changes are awkward.  Agree with H.E. on the "blasty" part - the end of the barrel is closer to your face, so you're a bit closer to the shockwave coming out of the muzzle brake.

@Cheflife15 - If you want to try it out at a range near me LMK and we'll set something up.

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4 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

I've got the "old style" Tavor with a trigger pack/bar upgrade.  I like the trigger, and it's way more accurate than I am.

I like the rifle overall, but it's relatively heavy and the magazine changes are awkward.  Agree with H.E. on the "blasty" part - the end of the barrel is closer to your face, so you're a bit closer to the shockwave coming out of the muzzle brake.

@Cheflife15 - If you want to try it out at a range near me LMK and we'll set something up.

Interesting feedback. Pmd

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11 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

That's a pretty brutal review lol.

My accuracy point is in terms of at distance compared to a daniel defense. The only info I have on this gun is what others wrote about it.

@Displaced Texantrigger comment could be a huge reason for less than ideal accuracy.

I always thought when reviewers discuss accuracy they would use a bench rest, thus taking the human error out of the equation but that probably isn't the case.

My AUG trigger felt like a pneumatic staple gun when I first bought it. I installed a 2020 Prefision sear, and it’s much better now. 
It makes a big difference in how I shoot it. 
 

The rifle itself is plenty ‘accurate’ inherently out of the box, but the improved trigger pull with the new sear makes ME shoot it more towards its potential. 

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45 minutes ago, Displaced Texan said:

My AUG trigger felt like a pneumatic staple gun when I first bought it. I installed a 2020 Prefision sear, and it’s much better now. 
It makes a big difference in how I shoot it. 
 

The rifle itself is plenty ‘accurate’ inherently out of the box, but the improved trigger pull with the new sear makes ME shoot it more towards its potential. 

I have no problems upgrading certain parts. It's more the size and dimensions of the gun that draw me to it.

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I have both myself, the best ARs I have are SIG 516s which both are sub moa with nearly every piece of factory nato ammunition I've tried. I also have a kel tec RDB bullpup, it shoots great, maybe not as good as the SIG but the SIG is twice plus the cost of the kel tec. The SIG produces noticeably less recall, because it is heavier. I would expect a heavier bullpup would equalize that felt recoil. The kel tek is much more maneuverable, as you would expect a smaller package to be, and I can fire it right or left, as it discharges down not to either side, this is why I purchased it. None of the other bullpups I considered discharged this way.  I also have a Troy other, and that almost equals the kel tecs maneuverability so purhaps that is an option for you as others already have a required VFG, but then you lose the ambidextrous shooting ability, and go with a direct impingement AR which I do not prefer in the least compared to the SIG or kel tec, which are both piston guns. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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On 6/17/2022 at 11:35 AM, Jon K said:

I have both myself, the best ARs I have are SIG 516s which both are sub moa with nearly every piece of factory nato ammunition I've tried. I also have a kel tec RDB bullpup, it shoots great, maybe not as good as the SIG but the SIG is twice plus the cost of the kel tec. The SIG produces noticeably less recall, because it is heavier. I would expect a heavier bullpup would equalize that felt recoil. The kel tek is much more maneuverable, as you would expect a smaller package to be, and I can fire it right or left, as it discharges down not to either side, this is why I purchased it. None of the other bullpups I considered discharged this way.  I also have a Troy other, and that almost equals the kel tecs maneuverability so purhaps that is an option for you as others already have a required VFG, but then you lose the ambidextrous shooting ability, and go with a direct impingement AR which I do not prefer in the least compared to the SIG or kel tec, which are both piston guns. Good luck with whatever you decide.

I have a Kel Tec RDB Hunter on the way - did you get the regular model or the Hunter?  How's the trigger on it?  I bought it on a whim so let's see if it's any good.

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On 6/17/2022 at 11:35 AM, Jon K said:

I have both myself, the best ARs I have are SIG 516s which both are sub moa with nearly every piece of factory nato ammunition I've tried. I also have a kel tec RDB bullpup, it shoots great, maybe not as good as the SIG but the SIG is twice plus the cost of the kel tec. The SIG produces noticeably less recall, because it is heavier. I would expect a heavier bullpup would equalize that felt recoil. The kel tek is much more maneuverable, as you would expect a smaller package to be, and I can fire it right or left, as it discharges down not to either side, this is why I purchased it. None of the other bullpups I considered discharged this way.  I also have a Troy other, and that almost equals the kel tecs maneuverability so purhaps that is an option for you as others already have a required VFG, but then you lose the ambidextrous shooting ability, and go with a direct impingement AR which I do not prefer in the least compared to the SIG or kel tec, which are both piston guns. Good luck with whatever you decide.

No offense but your "review" seems a bit suspect considering factory nato ammunition is 2 moa at best, with a 3 moa limit. 

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3 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

No offense but your "review" seems a bit suspect considering factory nato ammunition is 2 moa at best, with a 3 moa limit. 

They don't test it and if it is holding 1moa, throw it out because the spec is 2moa. Also, 2moa IIRC is the spec for bullet plus barrel, not the ammo. From the spec 

MIL-C-9963 Rev. F

"3.5 Accuracy. -The average of the mean radii of all targets of the sample cartridges, fired at 200 yards, shall not exceed 2.0 inches." 

That's slightly under 1moa as 1 moa would be 2.094 inches. 

That is from a test fixture rather than an actual rifle, but still it's not 2" 

Typically my expectation for generic m193 ammo is 1.5moa out of most barrels. IT has to be some crap ammo or a crap/worn barrel to see worse than that. 

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