KurtC 42 Posted June 28, 2022 The current permit does not list your firearm, but you need to qualify with any sidearm that you intend to carry. You need to turn such in with your application. The permit may change in the future, as the current one is absurd. I've always had to glue my photo on myself. If you qualify with another sidearm after your permit is issued, just keep a copy for your records. Your attorney will need it when you get arrested. Numerous folks have contacted me about instructors. The ones I know are getting long in the tooth and don't have the time to take on new clients. I plan on getting a qual in during the next few weeks, as I picked up a couple of new sidearms earlier this year. However, I will be shooting the Pennsylvania Police Course, which is considerably more difficult than the New Jersey HQC. The instructor told me to only bring along folks that have fired this course before. Sorry. I have never had to turn in a copy of my Birth Certificate, but I probably already have my own drawer in their file cabinet. Whatever your PD asks for, give them. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
byekryam 4 Posted June 28, 2022 2 hours ago, JackDaWack said: Nothing happens. Are they one in the same? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
byekryam 4 Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, 45Doll said: Perhaps I missed it among the several threads. Does a current (pre-ruling) NJ carry permit have a particular firearm's make/model/serial number printed on it? A. If not, then the license is not married to a particular gun, and I'm not obligated to carry anything in particular. B. If yes, then I'd be limited to one and only one gun. Unless the license has provision for several. If I got a license as in A, I would probably qualify with any handgun I carried in NJ, regardless of what I qualified with for the license. Just to cover myself. That would make too much sense so I'm guessing no just because it's going to be Jersey (they don't make anything simple). Everyone I'm talking to is stating the particular gun upon registration is the "only" one allowed. That's kinda the crux of my question as well. The difference between a Sig 38 and a Glock 38 are indecipherable Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
byekryam 4 Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, CMJeepster said: Nothing is certain right now other than "they" revised the form. There's debate taking place as to whether or not "we" rush the stage now, or wait to see what comes of all of this in the coming weeks. Personally, I've got my up-to-date application filled out, references lined up and documentation printed. I don't feel comfortable submitting yet as I fear this: When I spoke to my police desk they were discouraging me in a round about way, "you know it's an indepth process needing a great dal of work in order to get approved". Other's have stated that if they do deny you, then you have to check yes to "have you ever been denied before" and that's what they're concerned about. I'm more concerned about all the stuff they're going to try and come up with down the line that's going to make this all but impossible to accomplish 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CAL. .30 M1 2,101 Posted June 28, 2022 9 minutes ago, byekryam said: When I spoke to my police desk they were discouraging me in a round about way, "you know it's an indepth process needing a great dal of work in order to get approved". Other's have stated that if they do deny you, then you have to check yes to "have you ever been denied before" and that's what they're concerned about. I'm more concerned about all the stuff they're going to try and come up with down the line that's going to make this all but impossible to accomplish Good tell them you know and do it.....DONT rush...see what happens...we ALL WAITED THIS LONG....a few more weeks or so is not the end of the world.... It's your RIGHT, eff them.....they should be helping you NOT discouraging you. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurtC 42 Posted June 28, 2022 39 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said: Can anyone who is certified to do RPO, certify you? Also, see this: – No holster needed – All shooting from the ready position So you should be able to shoot this at Cherry Ridge....if a certified instructor is local that has and can do RPO certs Folks certified for RPO's can technically qualify you, but they can't supply you with the training aspect unless they are offering some sort of course. They usually just qualify folks that have shot the same course dozens of times before. A quick safety brief and a couple of dry draws and off to the live fire. I wouldn't trust any training that doesn't include drawing from a holster, unless you plan on always carrying your sidearm around in the ready position (or like Tuco in The Good, the Bad Nd the Ugly). Frankly, since the goal is to actually protect yourself in public, you should eventually seek out training that has you shooting from concealment. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
byekryam 4 Posted June 28, 2022 11 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said: Good tell them you know and do it.....DONT rush...see what happens...we ALL WAITED THIS LONG....a few more weeks or so is not the end of the world.... It's your RIGHT, eff them.....they should be helping you NOT discouraging you. I did state that, and that was my thoughts exactly as I was thinking about this after speaking to them. It's a shame we have to somewhat tip toe through this, but we're not sure who's the ones who are going to be approving our stuff... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CAL. .30 M1 2,101 Posted June 28, 2022 8 minutes ago, KurtC said: Folks certified for RPO's can technically qualify you, but they can't supply you with the training aspect unless they are offering some sort of course. They usually just qualify folks that have shot the same course dozens of times before. A quick safety brief and a couple of dry draws and off to the live fire. I wouldn't trust any training that doesn't include drawing from a holster, unless you plan on always carrying your sidearm around in the ready position (or like Tuco in The Good, the Bad Nd the Ugly). Frankly, since the goal is to actually protect yourself in public, you should eventually seek out training that has you shooting from concealment. So you are saying gunforhire is wrong....in his offering? I have shot from and carried in a holster...as well as many hours of dry fire from retention etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted June 28, 2022 1 minute ago, CAL. .30 M1 said: So you are saying gunforhire is wrong....in his offering? I have shot from and carried in a holster...as well as many hours of dry fire from retention etc. They're not wrong, IMO. The qualifications are for accuracy and safety, not firearm handling proficiency. It's bad enough NJ is setting the bar so high, we don't need to proliferate that. 47 minutes ago, byekryam said: Are they one in the same? Unless the law differentiates you carry how ever you want. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurtC 42 Posted June 29, 2022 38 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said: So you are saying gunforhire is wrong....in his offering? "Right or wrong" about getting approved for a permit is up to the agency that will be receiving your application. Check with them before you pay for training or a "qualification" that may not meet with their approval. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurtC 42 Posted June 29, 2022 32 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: They're not wrong, IMO. The qualifications are for accuracy and safety, not firearm handling proficiency. It's bad enough NJ is setting the bar so high, we don't need to proliferate that. Unless the law differentiates you carry how ever you want. The HQC is for proving proficiency in the defensive use of a sidearm. You have to demonstrate safety and accuracy under stress, in situations that simulate real life encounters. As for carrying any way you want, check with your lawyer on that one. Some methods can be considered reckless endangerment. Remember, we fight the way we train. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Combat Auto 174 Posted June 29, 2022 1 hour ago, 338lover said: I qualified using Corey at safetyman.co hes amazing and in NJ That looks good thanks for posting...He has a 2 part set up, part 1 NJ AG use of deadly force policy, and part 2 a qual...Did you take both these with them and do these cover all the training needed for the CCW. Thanks in Advance... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Regular Guy 264 Posted June 29, 2022 NJSP provides their requirements in a downloadable instruction document on the same page as the SP 642 HERE To prove qualification, it says the instructors name and certification number are needed. So what governing body or agency certifies instructors that are acceptable to NJSP? Are NRA instructors authorized or must they be certified though some other means in order to proctor the qualification we need? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted June 29, 2022 21 minutes ago, KurtC said: The HQC is for proving proficiency in the defensive use of a sidearm. You have to demonstrate safety and accuracy under stress, in situations that simulate real life encounters. As for carrying any way you want, check with your lawyer on that one. Some methods can be considered reckless endangerment. Remember, we fight the way we train. There are many different iterations of a HQC. Nothing in the law stipulates simulating real life encounters. This isn't for police officers etc. For the carry how you want comments, I don't need to check with a lawyer. The statute doesn't differentiate between open and conceal carry.... so you literally have the option for either. NJ doesn't have a conceal stipulation. I'm not sure how this leads to reckless endangerment unless you have an example to share. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CJack 138 Posted June 29, 2022 "a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association" is used multiple places in the NJ Admin code. That should suffice. If you want to be extra sure, pick one from the RPO list mentioned in the NJSP instruction packet. Anything beyond that is smoke and mirrors. https://www.law.cornell.edu/regulations/new-jersey/N-J-Admin-Code-SS-13-54-2-4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurtC 42 Posted June 29, 2022 22 minutes ago, Regular Guy said: NJSP provides their requirements in a downloadable instruction document on the same page as the SP 642 HERE To prove qualification, it says the instructors name and certification number are needed. So what governing body or agency certifies instructors that are acceptable to NJSP? Are NRA instructors authorized or must they be certified though some other means in order to proctor the qualification we need? If the HQC is still the standard, there are several instructor certifications that are acceptable. Obviously, the NJ PTC is at the top of list. The rest of the list would include the instructor courses by Federal agencies. NRA Police Instructor Course as well as police instructor Courses by some of the big firearms manufacturers. Again, check with the agency that will be processing your application to see what they will accept. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurtC 42 Posted June 29, 2022 1 hour ago, JackDaWack said: There are many different iterations of a HQC. Nothing in the law stipulates simulating real life encounters. This isn't for police officers etc. For the carry how you want comments, I don't need to check with a lawyer. The statute doesn't differentiate between open and conceal carry.... so you literally have the option for either. NJ doesn't have a conceal stipulation. I'm not sure how this leads to reckless endangerment unless you have an example to share. There is only one HQC in New Jersey. While used by police, there is nothing in there that particularly pertains to police. No arresting, handcuffing etc. It is simply about demonstrating that you can safely and effectively use a handgun defensively. It has been used for decades by unsworn people like armored car drivers, armed security and anyone else with a need to protect themselves in NJ. I think it is safe to say that carrying will be restricted to concealed in all but the most rural jurisdictions, along with possibly hunting or fishing. If you are carrying a loaded firearm in public, you need to have the number of a firearms attorney in your cell phone or wallet. You have the right to bear arms. In New Jersey, you do not have the right to self defense. Discharging the firearm, drawing it or even exposing it in public will get you arrested, regardless of the circumstances. This is an anti-gun state. Carrying a loaded handgun in a horizontal shoulder holster can be considered reckless endangerment, since the muzzle will be pointing at anyone behind you. The mandatory training leading up to qualification will include use of force in New Jersey. As I stated above, you do not have the right to self defense. This is not Pennsyltucky. Everything is against you in this state. You now have to become the most humble and polite person in the world. While it may be considered self defense to use a firearm to stop a knife attack, it doesn't count if you are the one that provoked the confrontation or escalated it. You will be the one charged with manslaughter. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CJack 138 Posted June 29, 2022 28 minutes ago, KurtC said: ....... You now have to become the most humble and polite person in the world. ........ I sure hope every law abiding carry person reads this million times, understands and exercises it every day.. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted June 29, 2022 1 hour ago, KurtC said: There is only one HQC in New Jersey. While used by police, there is nothing in there that particularly pertains to police. No arresting, handcuffing etc. It is simply about demonstrating that you can safely and effectively use a handgun defensively. It has been used for decades by unsworn people like armored car drivers, armed security and anyone else with a need to protect themselves in NJ. I think it is safe to say that carrying will be restricted to concealed in all but the most rural jurisdictions, along with possibly hunting or fishing. If you are carrying a loaded firearm in public, you need to have the number of a firearms attorney in your cell phone or wallet. You have the right to bear arms. In New Jersey, you do not have the right to self defense. Discharging the firearm, drawing it or even exposing it in public will get you arrested, regardless of the circumstances. This is an anti-gun state. Carrying a loaded handgun in a horizontal shoulder holster can be considered reckless endangerment, since the muzzle will be pointing at anyone behind you. The mandatory training leading up to qualification will include use of force in New Jersey. As I stated above, you do not have the right to self defense. This is not Pennsyltucky. Everything is against you in this state. You now have to become the most humble and polite person in the world. While it may be considered self defense to use a firearm to stop a knife attack, it doesn't count if you are the one that provoked the confrontation or escalated it. You will be the one charged with manslaughter. I dont disagree with your sentiments, NJ is still a duty to retreat State . I'm sure some people will need an attitude adjustment. I wouldnt advise a shoulder carry for the reason specified, along with many other reasons why its a bad idea. I would only argue there are officials who do shoulder carry, and its listed in NJ admin code as acceptable for "off duty use". I was under the impression the specific NJ States HQC is a certification for police and armed security that was twice a year. We don't have to take that, but an iteration of it. That's what I meant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurtC 42 Posted June 29, 2022 The officials that carry in methods that they did not qualify with have lawyers that are paid by the state. Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury, in either criminal or civil court. The New Jersey HQC has been the requirement for anyone carrying a firearm in NJ, Police of Civilian. I have been using the Pennsylvania for a good number of years, just to cover my butt. It is more intensive than the NJ HQC. MPOETC It is my understanding that in order to administer the NJ HQC, the instructor needs to be certified as a police instructor, such as done by the NJ PTC. The NRA has a Police Instructor Certification, which is different from their CCW or Pistol Instructor certifications. It has been my understanding that this is acceptable. My instructor has every possible police instructor certification, a Havard law degree and has been an expert witness in hundreds of shooting cases nationwide. I have been covering my butt in every way possible for the past 3 and half decades. Should the AG and SP decide to lower the standards in the weeks ahead, then the lesser NRA Instructor certifications may be acceptable. Again, consult the agency that will be processing your paperwork. They have the power to accept or reject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
H2oVento 64 Posted June 29, 2022 I am personally going to get some good training in before I even apply. My brother-in-law is a former swat instructer. I pratice every week but I could be better. I am 90% sure I could pass today if asked to but in my head I could be better Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichP 115 Posted June 29, 2022 No reason to not practice a bit beforehand, especially if you have the course of fire. Shot timer or app on your phone are also good ideas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurtC 42 Posted June 29, 2022 19 hours ago, MartyZ said: If NJ does not distinguish between concealed and open carry, what happens if you accidently flash your holstered firearm? For example if removing a jacket and your shirt flaps open or you try to reach something on the top shelf in the supermarket and your shirt rides up. It depends on the situation. Reaching for something or removing your jacket to get into your car, no big deal. Exposing it while interacting with someone is a big no no. You can be charged with brandishing a firearm, threat or assault. For example, someone is disputing a parking space with you and you get out of your car with the sidearm exposed. Someone cuts in line ahead of you at the supermarket and you "accidentally" expose your sidearm. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,916 Posted June 29, 2022 3 minutes ago, KurtC said: For example, someone is disputing a parking space with you and you get out of your car with the sidearm exposed. Someone cuts in line ahead of you at the supermarket and you "accidentally" expose your sidearm. A key take away here is if you're carrying, don't get into disputes. Be the guy that walks away. Allowing things to escalate runs the risk of things ending catastrophically when they didn't need to. Is a parking spot worth anybody's life? 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 859 Posted June 29, 2022 8 minutes ago, KurtC said: It depends on the situation. Reaching for something or removing your jacket to get into your car, no big deal. Exposing it while interacting with someone is a big no no. You can be charged with brandishing a firearm, threat or assault. For example, someone is disputing a parking space with you and you get out of your car with the sidearm exposed. Someone cuts in line ahead of you at the supermarket and you "accidentally" expose your sidearm. It goes back to your point that you have to become the most polite person on the planet. Since NJ has been a 'no gun' state I suspect the police will be called ANY time someone sees anything that looks like the outline of a pistol on someone's waistline. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurtC 42 Posted June 29, 2022 2 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said: A key take away here is if you're carrying, don't get into disputes. Be the guy that walks away. Allowing things to escalate runs the risk of things ending catastrophically when they didn't need to. Is a parking spot worth anybody's life? ^^^ This NJ Self Defense law is judged on how the the confrontation began and how it escalated, not how it ended. You may have used a sidearm to stop a knife attack, but you cannot use a self defense plea if you initiated the confrontation or somehow escalated it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MartyZ 692 Posted June 29, 2022 So if someone calls LE if you are printing or accidently expose your firearm while reaching for something on the top shelf, what happens then? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,916 Posted June 29, 2022 1 minute ago, MartyZ said: So if someone calls LE if you are printing or accidently expose your firearm while reaching for something on the top shelf, what happens then? If you're still there by the time the cops show up (you don't need to run away, but if you're done with what you're doing carry on with your day), keep your hands visible and don't make furtive movements. When the cops approach and make contact they will most likely ask about the gun. Explain to them that you have a NJ carry permit and where the pistol is located on your body - still keeping your hands visible - and after they ask to see your permit slowly reach into your pocket/whatever and retrieve it. My personal opinion on if they ask to secure your weapon for "officer safety" is to ask them to leave it safely in the holster where the trigger is covered and it is most safe. Guns that are not being handled are least likely to go off by accident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheflife15 455 Posted June 29, 2022 Never mind. missed the fbi part Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites